What would your character do #83 ?

[Wanderer]

The "Green Mile" situation:

 

(Actually two slightly different variations of the scenario) A notorious capital case convict is about to be executed. He has exausted all possible legal ways of reforming or appealing the sentence, and the executive authority able to issue a pardon on the case is sticking to a political pledge he won't issue pardons under any circumstance whatsoever. Another hero approaches your character with either A) convincing but not "beyond any doubt" evidence that the convict might be innocent or irrefutable evidence that the convict has reformed during his years in jail and has developed superhuman powers (such as very powerful healing powers) that would greatly help mankind and is willing to use them for altruistic ends. He asks your character's help to save the convict's life, and is apparently going to storm the prison if left to his own devices.

[Metaphysician]

Re: What would your character do #83 ?

 

(innocent scenario )

 

I call in my good friend and ally Horus-Re, who after confirming the man's innocence with truthsense, goes and asks the governor to pardon him.

 

If for some insane reason the governor refuses, then Horus-Re goes to meet the President and ask for the pardon, and the rest of us busy ourselves checking for mental influences on the governor ( assuming truth sense hasn't ferreted out some already ). If necessary, I head over to the prison and arrange a little power outage in order to provide extra time.

 

(reformed scenario )

 

In this case, I hand things over to my other teammate Starguard, to make the Impassioned Plee for Mercy.

[Wanderer]

Re: What would your character do #83 ?

 

For whatever reason, the sentence *can't* be reformed and the Governor/President *won't* issue a pardon under any circumstances.

[Metaphysician]

Re: What would your character do #83 ?

 

Then my teammate Starguard dispels the mental influence on the applicable minds. Sorry, but there is *no* other credible explanation. If Horus-Re says a guy is innocent, and has proof that he is innocent, then you pull out the pardon slip, fill it out, and hand it to Mr PRE 45 Rep +5/5d6 "I am Superman."

[Wanderer]

Re: What would your character do #83 ?

 

Then my teammate Starguard dispels the mental influence on the applicable minds. Sorry' date=' but there is *no* other credible explanation. If Horus-Re says a guy is innocent, and has proof that he is innocent, then you pull out the pardon slip, fill it out, and hand it to Mr PRE 45 Rep +5/5d6 "I am Superman."[/quote']

 

The Governor/President got elected on an unreasonably rigid "tough on crime", anti-metahuman agenda, refuses to meet super-charismatic guy in person, wears the latest model of anti-mind-tampering gadget bestowing +60 EGO and +60 PRE, Only To Resist PRE Attacks (-1), has "Fanatically Tough On Crime", "Won't Break A Political Pledge" and/or "Distrusts Metahumans" Total Psych Lims, and/or is the type of person that secretely thinks it's better to sacrifice an innocent than having a guilty get it away with it.

 

An assumption of the scenario is that the character *won't* be able to easily wriggle out of the quandary by having the guy quickly pardoned or the sentence reformed through normal legal channels. At least not within the normal time constraints of the scenario: e.g. it might be possible to get him pardoned in a few years, but the exceution is scheduled within the next week.

[nexus]

Re: What would your character do #83 ?

 

In the case of the innocent scenario, how solid is the evidence that the guys is innocent of the crimes he is accused of? Not "iron clad" or just a minor error in legal prodcedure?

 

In the "reformed" scenario just -what- did this guy to earn the Death Penalty in whatever Jurisdiction he was in? Was it a crime of passion that he feel truly remoreseful for or is he a mass murdering child rapist that "found God" as he his date with State got go close just to use extremes. Having potentially benefical powers doesn't nessecarily excuse anything.

[Chuckg]

Re: What would your character do #83 ?

 

Then my teammate Starguard dispels the mental influence on the applicable minds. Sorry' date=' but there is *no* other credible explanation. If Horus-Re says a guy is innocent, and has proof that he is innocent, then you pull out the pardon slip, fill it out, and hand it to Mr PRE 45 Rep +5/5d6 "I am Superman."[/quote']

 

Actually, that's +6/+6d6 rep.

 

Seriously, on our timeline, the New Sentinels /are/ the JLA, and Horus-Re is /really/ Superman. Plus, we're playing under mostly Silver Age genre conventions. If we hear the word "no", then that's usually a sign from God that either a) we're asking for something we shouldn't have or we're talking to somebody who's Not Nice.

[SKJAM!]

Re: What would your character do #83 ?

 

Mask of Justice: (possible innocence) Will investigate this evidence to determine the truth of the matter. If it turns out that the convict *is* innocent, the Mask will prevent the execution by non-lethal means long enough to prove that the politician blocking any chance of a pardon is in fact the real criminal. Because in a Golden Age story, that's the only possible explanation of same.

(reformed) Unfortunate, but changing your mind after the fact doesn't mean you don't get punished. Nick will pray for his soul.

 

Rock Bottom: (possible innocence) Will turn the evidence over to someone who has investigative skills. After that, it's out of his hands.

(reformed) See Mask of Justice, minus the praying, as RB is agnostic.

 

Calculus: (possible innocence) Will investigate to determine the truth, etc. If full innocence is established, Calculus will attempt to convince one or more teammates (the stealthier ones) to help him pull off a jailbreak for the convict and hide said person away long enough to prove who actually did it beyond a shadow of a doubt so that the court system has no choice but to set the convict free.

(reformed) See Mask of Justice.

 

Kira Midori: (possible innocence) Uses her telepathy and police skills to establish the truth of the matter. If the convict is in truth innocent, and the governor/president refuses to take the appropriate action, Kira will leak the information to the press, and to John Brimstone (Scott Bennie's character, a vigilante who wouldn't be afraid to break the law to free an innocent man.)

(reformed) See Mask of Justice.

 

Talion: (either) "So it goes." He'll investigate in the former instance, but since he has little or no pull with the authorities, it's likely Talion won't be able to save the guy. Just another miserable day all around.

[Wanderer]

Re: What would your character do #83 ?

 

In the case of the innocent scenario' date=' how solid is the evidence that the guys is innocent of the crimes he is accused of? Not "iron clad" or just a minor error in legal prodcedure? [/quote']

 

The evidence is at least serious enough to let a reasonable person be convinced of the possibility or even the likelihood of the guy's innocence, but not overwhelmingly enough to have the sentence overturned by the truly exceptional legal means that would be necessary, now that all the possible ways of appeal or reformation have been exausted before the evidence emerged, especially in the scenario-current political atmosphere of "in doubt, err on the side of harshness", "tough-on-crime" paranoia.

 

 

In the "reformed" scenario just -what- did this guy to earn the Death Penalty in whatever Jurisdiction he was in? Was it a crime of passion that he feel truly remoreseful for or is he a mass murdering child rapist that "found God" as he his date with State got go close just to use extremes. Having potentially benefical powers doesn't nessecarily excuse anything.

 

He did nothing more serious than the typical murder cases you may get a capital sentence for. No mass murder, serial child killer, or the like. And he gave ample evidence his reform is sincere: reformed years before the date for execution get close, excellent record as inmate, did work to help fellow inmates, etc. Assume a situation similar to the "Birdman of Alcatraz" movie.

[Chuckg]

Re: What would your character do #83 ?

 

> The Governor/President got elected on an unreasonably rigid "tough on

> crime", anti-metahuman agenda, refuses to meet super-charismatic guy in

> person,

 

What, is he holed up hermit-like in the state house and surrounded by the National Guard?

 

(Not that that would stop us... we'd just have a repeat of JLA #26, where an entire Army battalion laid down their rifles once it sank into them that "My God! We're shooting at Superman! What the hell were we THINKING?!?")

 

In case we need to repeat it yet again, Horus-Re /is/ Superman. Not just in powers, but also in status, prestige, reputation, and general level of acceptance.

 

In the last session of our campaign, he called the White House and asked for an appointment -- without giving a reason. The answer was "This morning good for you?"

 

> wears the latest model of anti-mind-tampering gadget bestowing +60 EGO

> and +60 PRE, Only To Resist PRE Attacks (-1),

 

... we have at least three separate ways to tracelessly detect and zorch said gadget. And our consciences are clear -- he's using it to defend himself while he does something illegal (he's corrupting the appeals process with personal bias... that's a no-no.).

 

> has "Fanatically Tough On Crime",

 

Microman II -- "Logically speaking, by executing a man who is innocent of this crime, you are not only letting the person actually guilty of said crime go free but providing with what is, in effect, permanent absolution. How does this correlate with being 'tough on crime'?"

 

> "Won't Break A Political Pledge"

 

Starguard -- "But when you were sworn in, you promised to be honest and uphold the law, with fairness!"

 

> and/or "Distrusts Metahumans" Total Psych Lims,

 

Then we send in Daniel Stone, billionaire, politically connected up the ying-yang at Federal, state, /and/ local government levels, son of Franklin Stone (the world's richest man)... and *not* known to be metahuman.

 

(Even if he secretly is our teammate Warp.)

 

> and/or is the type of person that secretely thinks it's better

> to sacrifice an innocent than having a guilty get it away with it.

 

... then I ask the DM for permission to unleash my never-before-used 110 PRE "Belldandy Effect" redemption attack.

 

As a benchmark, note that the Dragon itself, embodiment of human evil, is only PRE 115 on its "Come To The Dark Side" mental damage shield.

 

> An assumption of the scenario is that the character *won't* be able to

> easily wriggle out of the quandary by having the guy quickly pardoned or

> the sentence reformed through normal legal channels.

 

That's the problem. Your assumption is arbitrary plot-forcing -- it's right down there with the same kind of DM'ing technique that forces the players to *always* go to The Dungeon, even if it's east of The City and the players left heading west.

 

> At least not within the normal time constraints of the scenario: e.g. it

> might be possible to get him pardoned in a few years, but the exceution is

> scheduled within the next week.

 

And if all else fails, then we hold a press conference, announce to the world that the governor is letting an innocent man fry for political expediency, and step back and watch the impeachment proceedings. Meanwhile, of course, the execution is put on hold, unless the entire state government *and* the President of the United States have collectively gone insane.

 

... this is, of course, assuming that the governor is such a monomaniac retard that the /threat/ of our holding such a press conference did not convince him, who is presumably an experienced politician, that now is the time to cut his losses.

 

Furthermore, your reasoning contains a basic failure of logic anyway -- nothing *destroys* public support for a "tough on crime" platform faster than the idea that the innocent are getting nailed alongside the guilty, and without that public support, he ain't getting re-elected anyway.

[MisterD]

Re: What would your character do #83 ?

 

"Ladies and gentelmen of the city. I give sad news. The govonor of the city has just put to death a man with the ability to heal and save lives when he had the ability, the chance to save his life."

 

"Here is a list of patients from the jail Mister Jacobs was imprisoned. They list malidies from broken bones to life threateneing cancer. With but a touch and a prayer, Mister Jacobs has healed them. By the time of his execution, there was no paitents in the medical ward."

 

"As the new govonor I promise not to be as rigid or small minded as Govonor Drowman. Mister Joshua would not had been released from jail. He murdered a man and deserves punishment but to Kill a man with the gift and desire to heal thoes who are suffering."

 

"As your new Govonor. If I learn about something or someone that can do the most good, help protect the fine people of this city, rescue or save lives. I will do my best to make sure that you, and you, and you. Loose a protector, defender or healer."

[BcAugust]

Re: What would your character do #83 ?

 

Even ignoring what the rest of the team is doing, if Cyrande found out about this, she has no problem freeing the man herself and claiming him so that her diplomatic immunity covers him until such time the people come to their senses. And if the US government wants to challenge that, she's got several other countries that are quite willing to open their doors to her and her teammates.

[Wanderer]

Re: What would your character do #83 ?

 

OK, Chuckg, I concede the credentials of your group are good enough. I notice you are only addressing the "innocence" scenario. What about the less black-and-white "reformed" scenario ?

 

(or on an even more morally ambigous scenario, what if the guy actually "deserves" death, but it is vital to avoid his death anyway ? I remember an old horror movie with Demi Moore, where the main characters try to stop an execution; the convict is an unsympathetic unrepentant guilty-religious fanatic who brutally killed his own parents after he discovered they were brother and sister secretely living in incest- but his death will break one of the Seven Seals that hold off Apocalypse).

 

BTW, are the stats for Horus-Re posted anywhere ? He looks like his PC existence would assuage my lingering traces of guilt for creating my Nova

[Chuckg]

Re: What would your character do #83 ?

 

> OK, Chuckg, I concede the credentials of your group are good enough. I

> notice you are only addressing the "innocence" scenario. What about the

> less black-and-white "reformed" scenario?

 

Actually, we can sidestep around that, too.

 

Starguard, my own character, has an 80-point VPP, and is, as near as we can figure out, either a) an amnesiac goddess, mind-melded with one, or c) the current human host of the Spectre.

 

... in other words, there is nothing imaginable that this schmuck can't do that I can't already fill in for.

 

Plus, with Horus-Re's "God of Truth" power, and Starguard's own Soul Sense, we can determine with 100% reliability whether or not this guy has actually redeemed or is just faking it -- and if the former, then, well, that's evidence that we'll enter into the parole hearing.

 

... what parole hearing, you might ask?

 

The parole hearing that the governor *will* call, because we *asked* him to.

 

> (or on an even more morally ambigous scenario, what if the guy actually

> "deserves" death, but it is vital to avoid his death anyway?

 

Well, unless the governor is the sort of monomaniac genocidal psycho who'd gladly unleash Apocalypse rather than back off even the slightest bit -- at which point, we call in the state's official physician and ask him to medically certify the governor mentally incapable of performing his duties, as he's obviously lost his mind completely -- the sentence should, in the interests of all reason, be commuted to "Eternity In Cryogenic Suspension".

 

"... in a specially-designed super-prison..."

 

"... buried somewhere in the Microverse..."

 

"... safely in Dr. Collins' laboratory."

 

> BTW, are the stats for Horus-Re posted anywhere?

 

Nope, because his player doesn't want them to be.

 

As his co-designer, however, I know exactly what they are, and they're <825 points.

 

> He looks like his PC existence would assuage my lingering traces of guilt for

> creating my Nova

 

They won't. Not only did I get it in about 300 under budget than you, but he's neither invincible nor omni-capable.

 

Impressive, yes. Unbeatable or insufferable, no.

[Chuckg]

Re: What would your character do #83 ?

 

Note for the record -- Cyrande's 'Diplomatic Immunity' is not just from some small postage-stamp nation... she's the heiress to the throne of the planet Malva.

 

At present, the official position of the US government re: Malva is "They're not pissed at us, and we'd really really like to keep it that way."

 

Consequently, Cyrande tends to get away with things.

[SKJAM!]

Re: What would your character do #83 ?

 

Third variation, well....none of my characters like extortion. They'll all try to find ways of preventing disaster without having to knuckle under to this creep. Calculus would probably have the best success, working with Prototype II to find some way of artificially replicating whatever part of the convict's life is essential to saving the planet.

 

I'm fairly sure that the governor will agree to that, "He'll be dead, of course, but his heart will be kept pumping in this special chamber indefinitely."

[nexus]

Re: What would your character do #83 ?

 

(or on an even more morally ambigous scenario, what if the guy actually "deserves" death, but it is vital to avoid his death anyway ? I remember an old horror movie with Demi Moore, where the main characters try to stop an execution; the convict is an unsympathetic unrepentant guilty-religious fanatic who brutally killed his own parents after he discovered they were brother and sister secretely living in incest- but his death will break one of the Seven Seals that hold off Apocalypse).

 

Off topic, but...damn I don't know about "Unsympathetic" in that case. Come on, finding out your mom and dad are brother and sister has got be taxing to the old SAN meter. At least IMO, and I live in Appalachia.

 

Anyway as for characters (A few of them...)

 

Tao: It doesn't seem logical to mete out the ultimate punishiment with ultimate (irrefutable) evidence. She does not beleive in capitial punishment for that reason (Code vs Killing).

 

Shidoku:Tough break, but he did the crime he has to do the punishment. She accepted her's, he just had bad luck or a lousy lawyer. In the "might be innocent" case she'd feel bad about it, but there's not much she can do about it at her level.

 

Valkeyrie:Same basic reasoning as Tao, but more learned and emotional about it. (Code vs Killing again, but stronger and more ethics than logic based).

[Blue]

Re: What would your character do #83 ?

 

Been there, done this

 

Actually the scenario was a little more black and white in the case of the one I forced on my players:

 

According to all sources, a major rip in the fabric of time seems to originate at the time and place of the execution of a notorious prisoner. To make things worse, he seems to have been railroaded. AND, from another quarter, there's a prophecy regarding end times coming with a public "crucifiction". Some but not all folks in the hierarchy were corrupt, and the governor was unwilling to repeal anything related to this notorious mass murderer. In the end, the heroes opted to break into the city's superprison, The Keep, and halt the execution.

 

Of course it turns out it was all happening for another reason: The takedown of the keep's defenses by the team allowed a specific villain/hero (no one knows what side this guy is on) to enter the prison and execute an individual he had been trying to gain revenge on for over a thousand years.

 

It was long and complicated and I said to myself afterward, "Don't make plots that complicated anymore!" One guy in the group said, "But I love complicated plots!" The rest had fun with the individual scenarios but seemed confused by the big picture.

 

Plus nobody like to be manipulated by the GM to that degree, I think.

 

But in answer: Audra Blue did participate in a breakout. All of her government contracts have since been dropped in retaliation, and she's now bleeding money. Anthem would have participated, just to make sure the right thing was done. Uncle Slam would have gone through all the channels and pulled all his influence first, but in the end he would be the inside man on the job.

[Wanderer]

Re: What would your character do #83 ?

 

 

As his co-designer, however, I know exactly what they are, and they're <825 points.

 

> He looks like his PC existence would assuage my lingering traces of guilt for

> creating my Nova

 

They won't. Not only did I get it in about 300 under budget than you, but he's neither invincible nor omni-capable.

 

Impressive, yes. Unbeatable or insufferable, no.

 

Well, if you deem him invincible and unbeatable, it means you'd be able to use him way better than his creator Just like his loose models (Authority's Apollo/Superman/Silver Surfer), he's meant to be mainly vulnerable to enemies taking advantage of his vulnerabilities and weak spots (e.g. Mental Powers) and/or at his power level. For a street-level super without just the right powers/gear/kryptonite, a cosmic would look like unstoppable jaggernaut. Cosmics, to a degree, look like omni-capable, but not doing him too capable is just the reason why I did not gave him a VPP. And I can easily understand that to a four-color fan, a Superman-like cosmic with an Authority mindset would look like insufferable.

 

As regards comic-book diplomatic immunities, I've always assumed they work best when the little postage-stamp nation has ready access to WMD hypertech, like its original model, Latveria. Anyway, I'd assume that even US Government wouldn't be so irrational to go at war with a postage-stamp nation over so little a matter like bringing a fugitive convict back in the death ward

[BcAugust]

Re: What would your character do #83 ?

 

Um, he said not a postage sized stamp nation. Crown Princess Cyrande is from Malva, one of the most powerful star empires in Champions. Not to mention that on Earth, she could potentially call on Firewing for help, even ignoring the fact she is personally at Ult. Magneto's power level. Of course, she has enemies who can/will ignore all that, but the governments of the world aren't amoung them.

 

Besides, if need be, she could always pack up and move to say, Canada, with the prisoner. Let's see them try to extradite him then, especially given Horus's word.

[Maelstrom]

Re: What would your character do #83 ?

 

The "Green Mile" situation:

 

(Actually two slightly different variations of the scenario) A notorious capital case convict is about to be executed. He has exausted all possible legal ways of reforming or appealing the sentence, and the executive authority able to issue a pardon on the case is sticking to a political pledge he won't issue pardons under any circumstance whatsoever. Another hero approaches your character with either A) convincing but not "beyond any doubt" evidence that the convict might be innocent or irrefutable evidence that the convict has reformed during his years in jail and has developed superhuman powers (such as very powerful healing powers) that would greatly help mankind and is willing to use them for altruistic ends. He asks your character's help to save the convict's life, and is apparently going to storm the prison if left to his own devices.

 

 

Maelstrom's answer is, So?

 

a) Take it to his defense attorney or PD. They're the ones to work within the system to get him his (next) day in court. Since I'm in CA, they'll probably take it to the 9th District, and get a stay. No worries.

 

Breaking jail is illegal, and I would have to stop the hero before he did so. Being under a sentence of death often works wonders for people's states of mind, but in this case, the convict is liable to say anything to this (probably gullible) hero to avoid the gas chamber.

 

In either case, it's a job for the system, not the heroes. You take the law into your own hands to bust somebody out, and you're not a hero anymore.

[Metaphysician]

Re: What would your character do #83 ?

 

The Governor/President got elected on an unreasonably rigid "tough on crime", anti-metahuman agenda, refuses to meet super-charismatic guy in person, wears the latest model of anti-mind-tampering gadget bestowing +60 EGO and +60 PRE, Only To Resist PRE Attacks (-1), has "Fanatically Tough On Crime", "Won't Break A Political Pledge" and/or "Distrusts Metahumans" Total Psych Lims, and/or is the type of person that secretely thinks it's better to sacrifice an innocent than having a guilty get it away with it.

 

An assumption of the scenario is that the character *won't* be able to easily wriggle out of the quandary by having the guy quickly pardoned or the sentence reformed through normal legal channels. At least not within the normal time constraints of the scenario: e.g. it might be possible to get him pardoned in a few years, but the exceution is scheduled within the next week.

 

IOW, he is someone who would not ever actually get elected in the first place, *ESPECIALLY* if he ever let it be publically known that he is hostile to the World's Greatest Hero.

 

Sorry, but this is just not a credible scenario. Besides, I don't think the tech even exists to grant +60 Ego/Pre.

[Metaphysician]

Re: What would your character do #83 ?

 

And another extra comment: it should be noted that the only people who'd have an interest in this scenario happening is the IHA. And, amongst villainous organizations of the Champions U, they pretty much have the least power and influence ( of their own; not counting occasional hand lent them by VIPER or Dr Destroyer ).

 

And while I could buy them managing to get a schill of there's in office as high as governor ( once ), there is no way in hell they'd get control over the President.

[OddHat]

Re: What would your character do #83 ?

 

The "Green Mile" situation:

 

(Actually two slightly different variations of the scenario) A notorious capital case convict is about to be executed. He has exausted all possible legal ways of reforming or appealing the sentence, and the executive authority able to issue a pardon on the case is sticking to a political pledge he won't issue pardons under any circumstance whatsoever. Another hero approaches your character with either A) convincing but not "beyond any doubt" evidence that the convict might be innocent or irrefutable evidence that the convict has reformed during his years in jail and has developed superhuman powers (such as very powerful healing powers) that would greatly help mankind and is willing to use them for altruistic ends. He asks your character's help to save the convict's life, and is apparently going to storm the prison if left to his own devices.

 

Also noting the "No pardons under any ciercumstances" part of the scenario (which I don't agree with, but the GM is the GM):

 

Style - (1) Uses his magic and detective skills to determine if the convict is innocent. Speaks to convict and reads his aura. Goes to the media if the governor rejets the evidence. Checks to see if the governor is under some sort of mind control or corrupt. Once all other legal means are exhausted, travels astrally into the prison and replaces the convict with a fetch, then frees the convict and helps him establish himself under a new identity in another city. (2) Identical to (1), except that the fact that the criminal is guilty means that, following the interview, he places a Geas on the new hero and frees him that night.

 

AnimeGai - No investigative skills, no way to tell if this is the truth. Passes the buck.

 

Flesh Gordon - Poor investigative skills, but a sucker for a sob story and not all that perceptive. Organizes huge media outcry in either case, probably not very effective. Would not participate in a prison break.

 

Indomitable Will - (1) "So the capitalist dogs have once again allowed their travesty of a court system to condemn an innocent man to death! Feel my Social Justice!" Followed by an all out assault on the prison. (2) "Regret? Of what use is regret to those you have harmed! Still, if you pledge yourself to the Good of your Fellow Citizens and strive each day to make up for the harm you have done, I shall free you from this corrupt hole!"

 

Thirteen - By far the best investigator of the lot and can detect lies. In the case of (1), and complete irationality on the part of the courts, it's prison break time. In the case of (2), why did the convict kill, and why? If he was a deranged serial killer, then: "You're a killer. You can't bring back the lives you took. Good deeds won't wash away the evil that you've done. Good luck in your next life." If the criminal was somehow sent to death row for an accidental murder, and had sincerely reformed, Thirteen would free him.

[Wanderer]

Re: What would your character do #83 ?

 

Off topic' date=' but...damn I don't know about "Unsympathetic" in that case. Come on, finding out your mom and dad are brother and sister has got be taxing to the old SAN meter. At least IMO, and I live in Appalachia. [/quote']

 

I agree to the insanity angle, but since the guy ended up in the death row, it must be assumed he was reckoned sane (not that in several RL cases the definition of "sane" hasn't been stretched till screaming to allow a politically-expedient execution...), and in that case, slitting their throats seemed just a bit too extreme IMO.