Trix are for kids and Points are for Players

[Hyper-Man]

I have noticed quite a few 'the current rule is busted let's change it' threads lately and this got me wondering about why. I still don't have a good answer to that question but I think it might help if we try to answer a different one:

 

What is the fundamental purpose or advantage of using a point based multi-genre RPG like HERO vs. the multitude of random characteristic generator systems out there?

 

Here are what I think the top reasons are in the case of HERO at least:

1. It allows Players to create just about any type of character the GM is willing to allow in his game with a smaller amount of 'house-ruling' than any other RPG irregardless of genre.
   
2. It allows the GM to have a very quantified way of comparing Player characters BESIDES combat ability (that's a subject of various threads all on its own!).
   
3. It makes Player experience point awardment extremely simple; just use the same guidlines as character creation in most cases.
   

I do not think it is that important for a GM to actually make balanced or efficient NPC's to face his players. In fact, unless the players have access to Supress, Drain, Transfer, Dispell etc.. knowing the point costs for your NPC's is really only usefull as a power level comparison tool which really is just a measurement of combat ability and as I stated earlier is not necessarily tied to total points in many cases. Knowing the combat or plot affecting abitities of your NPC's is far more important than the points.

 

I am sure there are points I am forgetting to make and that others on the board have differing opinions. I would like to hear them all.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Trix are for kids and Points are for Players

 

bump!

 

40+ views and no one has any opinion for OR against?!? Or is it just too wordy to be interresting?

[Vorsch]

Re: Trix are for kids and Points are for Players

 

If the question is "why change the rules"

 

Then my answer would be:

 

Hero was designed as a basic Super hero game over 20 years ago. It shows it age in some of its rules, while reasoning from affect and the ability to build powers is good alot of powers are simply not catered for in the game. This was stated at the back of third ed.

 

In other systems you can actualy but the power you want and get assosiated uses. While hero makes you pay for everything. Lack of SFX support without resorting to large advantages blowing most point caps to make the power you want. ( again C3 allowd for minor adv and lims for powers without paying for it )

 

some of the rules are silly, throwing, kb, and move thru for example.

 

the spd chart encourages high spd characters so everone get to act, rather than like other systems that give 1 action a round. Blatent stat inflation

 

It just occurs to me am i actually ansering you question?

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Trix are for kids and Points are for Players

 

Points actually makes it harder to compare characters, look at a White Wolf character

You have X dots of this power. I have Y dots in the same power. Is X>Y ?

 

Champions, however, is much more difficult.

I have an RKA, you have an RKA. Yours in a Gadget and runs on an End Reserve. Mine is a Mutant Power. Yours can go until your batteries run dry. I can go until I pass out and it is wears me out quickly. You have trouble at airport security, I walk on through. Unless they are checking for Mutant Powers, in which case, I can't leave my powers at home, while you could.

 

The one that drives me crazy in other game systems...

I want this power, but I want this limitation on it, because it fits my special effects.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Trix are for kids and Points are for Players

 

40+ views and no one has any opinion for OR against?!? Or is it just too wordy to be interresting?

 

His preamble is unrelated to his question. As such, I had no follow-up comment because the first post made no sense to me.

[Vorsch]

Re: Trix are for kids and Points are for Players

 

Having reread the question

 

the point of a fixed point game against random is that everone has a equal ability to make a good character, balanced against the other players and WHAT YOU WANTED TO PLAY IN THE FIRST PLACE, while random generation gives you wildly divergent and inapropriate skill and power levels with no theme WHICH YOUR NOT ALLOWED TO CHANGE.

[lazarus]

Re: Trix are for kids and Points are for Players

 

As a GM, I'd point out my npc's, magic items, and everything else ... because it's fun.

 

Laz is a geek.

[Agent X]

Re: Trix are for kids and Points are for Players

 

The game isn't really about balance. The game is about designing the character you want to play. If you want to play a "guy with wings" you really shouldn't be balanced with the other player's "thermonuclear man."

 

However, you should be able to contribute and it's not hard for a GM to steer player designs to allow everyone to contribute.

 

Speed Chart problems? Ignore the speed chart.

Move Through problems? Use the optional rule.

Knockback problems? Use the knockdown rule.

 

Most "problems" people have with the system are addressed by optional rules or rules that apply to Heroic play as opposed to Superheroic play. If you want your Superheroes more "realistic" just use more Heroic genre rules.

 

Now, damage shield costs, unnecessary complexity concerning instant change and regeneration, and adding strength to martial arts maneuvers and hand attack at the same time - those bug me, but they are easily house ruled.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Trix are for kids and Points are for Players

 

As a GM' date=' I'd point out my npc's, magic items, and everything else ... because it's fun. Laz is a geek.[/quote']

 

Heh.

 

On the positive side, it does serve a useful purpose. It helps you get really familiar with the game system, the importance of which is proportional to the number of players for which you may be asked to GM.

[arcady]

Re: Trix are for kids and Points are for Players

 

40+ views and no one has any opinion for OR against?!? Or is it just too wordy to be interresting?

You started with one point -about people making posts to change the rules- moved to a second -about the use of points to manage player PC design- and then moved on to a third -about the need to track points for npcs.

 

I think that's left us wondering how or what to address.

 

I'll work with the third topic only.

 

A good number of the NPCs in my game have no writeup whatsoever. I only do one if I think they'll need it, and then I often leave sections blank. In the end they should balance out to something, so I have that in mind when I do partial writeups, but not the details.

[lazarus]

Re: Trix are for kids and Points are for Players

 

The other thing is ... if you stat it, they'll try to kill it.

 

Laz

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Trix are for kids and Points are for Players

 

The other thing is ... if you stat it, they'll try to kill it.

 

Laz

LOL

 

My appologies to those who thought my original post was confusing. It was first draft off the top of my head. I don't see the 3 different topics as being truly seperate and that is why I included them all together.

 

Thanks for the input everyone.

[zornwil]

Re: Trix are for kids and Points are for Players

 

Hyper-man, you only posted it 9/3! I just got to it (still catching up on NGD, and anyway I often let a week go by without catching up on fora I normally visit).

 

To the original point, and to subsequent posters, I believe that a good points-based game, such as HERO, does speak to how well-balanced characters are, even if it's by no means direct and by no means precise. But, truly, any 350 point character should be roughly the equal in all-around utility as any other 350 point (or 300-400 point anyway) character. This doesn't mean they could go toe-to-toe in combat, but it does mean that in a well-rounded campaign with reasonably-designed characters, they will both be equally useful in accomplishing the material goals of the PCs.

 

I think your original post summed up the points approach pretty well, that's probably a bigger reason you didn't get many replies.

 

I would add that when I create NPCs I sometimes point-cost them out (without getting into being too anal or efficient) just to get a clue as to what power range they probably are in. Sometimes I can spot a problem immediately that way.

[zornwil]

Re: Trix are for kids and Points are for Players

 

Oh, on the other point - the "stuff is broken, fix it" threads may be getting more pronounced (not sure if they are other than an ephemeral spike, though) because 5th has "settled in" and people now have found all the things they like and don't like with greater clarity. I know I have. And the natural reaction is to not distniguish between things we don't like and things that are broken, and it's a gray line anyway in many cases - theoretically, something could not be broken but nobody might like it, so would you say it needs to be fixed? Yeah, if nobody plays it that way, it's de facto broken, no matter how consistent or "correct".

 

Add onto that the tradition (crunchy) and experience (considerable) of many HERO gamers lends itself to critiques, and I think that explains why there may be more such threads you reference.

[KA.]

Re: Trix are for kids and Points are for Players

 

Oh, on the other point - the "stuff is broken, fix it" threads may be getting more pronounced (not sure if they are other than an ephemeral spike, though) because 5th has "settled in" and people now have found all the things they like and don't like with greater clarity. I know I have. And the natural reaction is to not distniguish between things we don't like and things that are broken, and it's a gray line anyway in many cases - theoretically, something could not be broken but nobody might like it, so would you say it needs to be fixed? Yeah, if nobody plays it that way, it's de facto broken, no matter how consistent or "correct".

 

Add onto that the tradition (crunchy) and experience (considerable) of many HERO gamers lends itself to critiques, and I think that explains why there may be more such threads you reference.

 

Good insight, Zornwil.

 

I also consider the "fix this" threads to be a compliment to the system.

Things that are really broken don't get fixed, they get thrown out, especially when there are alternatives.

The number of people who want to "fix" the Hero system is a good indicator that it is basically sound.

If it were basically unsound, they would just say: "I would rather play Game X."

 

KA.

 

P.S. I don't mean to imply that there is nothing in the system that needs fixing, even though I don't see many glaring problems.

I am just saying that the "fixers" are fans too, not some evil force trying to destroy our game.

 

 

 

 

Except for the "No Speed Chart" people, of course.

 

 

 

[zornwil]

Re: Trix are for kids and Points are for Players

 

Good insight, Zornwil.

 

I also consider the "fix this" threads to be a compliment to the system.

Things that are really broken don't get fixed, they get thrown out, especially when there are alternatives.

The number of people who want to "fix" the Hero system is a good indicator that it is basically sound.

If it were basically unsound, they would just say: "I would rather play Game X."

 

KA.

 

P.S. I don't mean to imply that there is nothing in the system that needs fixing, even though I don't see many glaring problems.

I am just saying that the "fixers" are fans too, not some evil force trying to destroy our game.

 

 

 

 

Except for the "No Speed Chart" people, of course.

 

 

 

Thanks. And I agree.

 

I thinkthe "No Speed Chart" people are smelly!

 

 

(kidding, of course)