Bringing up Everyman Skills

[Agent X]

Re: Bringing up Everyman Skills

 

If I had a player who begged for free points and then then quit the game when they didn't get them' date=' I can't say I'd be sad to see them go. [/quote'] Winking aside, if he agrees with me, it's not the issue of free points that would make him walk. It's the fact that you said you would get rid of Everyman skills if someone broached the subject. That's... insane.

[chiralman]

Re: Bringing up Everyman Skills

 

Yes' date=' but you raised the question, which allows us reasonably to infer that it is an actual or a potential issue in your own game.[/quote']

 

It's not. I've had this discussion with others, but it's never been so inflammatory. I was just surveying to see what the general consensus was... and I get smothered in mockery. My bad.

 

If it's not' date=' fair enough, but the fact that you raised the question initially makes your response to others' pro-rules response a little suspect. If your players aren't screwing up your game with this issue (as would seem to be the case), then why is it that you end up saying that you have such a hard time with GM's who say that 'your points are your points'?[/quote']

 

When did I say that? I was responding to how it was said... I don't appreciate some of the overreaction that goes on in these boards, but I respect opinions.

 

After all' date=' this assumption (that points should be points) was built-in to your original question. You seem to be changing your outlook without acknowledgement in the face of answers you don't like, and with no apparent reason. [/quote']

 

There is no 'right or wrong' for the Hero System, that can't be overemphasized, but there's room for discussion which is all that these boards are supposed to do. Why would I ask if my own opinion on the subject won't be changed? Anyway, it's a non-issue. Don't get so bent out of shape. Thanks for your opinions.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Bringing up Everyman Skills

 

I was just surveying to see what the general consensus was... and I get smothered in mockery.

 

Mockery Smothered Chiralman

 

2 lbs. chiralman parts

2 tablespoons margarine

1 can Progresso Sarcastic Mockery soup

1/2 cup diced canned tomatoes

1/3 cup finely chopped onion

1/4 teaspoon basil leaves, crushed

 

In skillet, slowly brown chiralman in margarine (about 30 minutes). Add remaining ingredients. Cover and simmer 15 minutes or until done, stirring occasionally.

 

Serve over rice.

 

Chicken may be substituted for chiralman. Campbell's Cheddar Cheese soup may be substituted for Progresso Sarcastic Mockery soup. Salsa may be substututed for diced tomatoes.

[chiralman]

Re: Bringing up Everyman Skills

 

Mockery Smothered Chiralman

 

2 lbs. chiralman parts

2 tablespoons margarine

1 can Progresso Sarcastic Mockery soup

1/2 cup diced canned tomatoes

1/3 cup finely chopped onion

1/4 teaspoon basil leaves, crushed

 

In skillet, slowly brown chiralman in margarine (about 30 minutes). Add remaining ingredients. Cover and simmer 15 minutes or until done, stirring occasionally.

 

Serve over rice.

 

Chicken may be substituted for chiralman. Campbell's Cheddar Cheese soup may be substituted for Progresso Sarcastic Mockery soup. Salsa may be substututed for diced tomatoes.

 

That's cute, it must have taken you a long time and I appreciate the effort. I'm printing it and hanging it on my wall. Good thing you don't over-react to mundane issues, that would be a tragedy.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Bringing up Everyman Skills

 

Good thing you don't over-react to mundane issues' date=' that would be a tragedy.[/quote']

 

I have a feeling you are taking this conversation more seriously than I am. Okay, here is a completely serious answer:

 

If a player suggested that they should get a cost break on buying a skill because they previously got familiarity with that skill for free, my first reaction be to say something like "You're kidding, right? Uh, no. If you want the real skill, you pay for it just like everyone else."

 

If they pressed it, like you have, I would say, "Look, let's just play the game the way it's written. None of us have time to keep track of a bunch of house rules. Besides, not every character necessarily has the same Everyman Skills: keeping track of that would be a bookkeeping hassle, and it'd make writing up characters in Hero Designer more of a nuisance."

 

If they threatened to leave the game, as you have, I would say, "Geez, man, let it go: it's one bloody POINT. Look, I'll give you ten points of experience to go ahead and *buy* your Everyman Skill familiarities. Okay? Everybody take ten experience, and spend it on your Everyman Skill familiarities. Okay? Everybody happy? Super."

 

And then I'd reduce the XP for the next ten games by one point each. Or at least I'd be tempted to. I probably wouldn't do it.

[Old Man]

Re: Bringing up Everyman Skills

 

"You're kidding, right? Uh, no. If you want the real skill, you pay for it just like everyone else."

 

If they pressed it, like you have, I would say, "Look, let's just play the game the way it's written. None of us have time to keep track of a bunch of house rules. Besides, not every character necessarily has the same Everyman Skills: keeping track of that would be a bookkeeping hassle, and it'd make writing up characters in Hero Designer more of a nuisance."

 

I thought everybody got the same set of Everyman Skills. That's why they're called "Everyman Skills". *shrug*

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Bringing up Everyman Skills

 

I thought everybody got the same set of Everyman Skills. That's why they're called "Everyman Skills".

 

No, everyone from the same society gets the same Everyman Skills. In some games, of course, this amounts to same thing. But in some games, it doesn't.

[KA.]

Re: Bringing up Everyman Skills

 

How taboo is it to allow Everyman Skills already possessed to cost 2 points instead of 3? I've always figured that since these are treated as FAM-based skills that they already have 1 pt invested.

 

I know its minor and that it's up to the GM, but since I'm starting a new game I thought I'd survey the crowd to see what everyone else thinks. I mean it's important enough to note in other places (vague I know, but I can't think of where I've seen it brought up) as something to avoid doing.

 

Thoughts?

 

chiralman,

First, sorry for all the rancor.

Second, I would not allow this, even when at lower levels, because I think it would throw off character creation. Not because of the bookkeeping, because that could be handled easily enough, but because of the inevitable variations in Everyman skills that would be requested.

"My chracter is a Ninja, all Ninjas learn Lockpicking as part of their everyday life. I should get it as an Everyman skill."

Next thing you know every player will be playing a Ninja, Alien, Native American, Member of the Mafia, to get a discount on the good skills.

 

Aside from that, there is some logic to the way things currently work.

A lot of people currently have "everyman" skills like Cooking, Plumbing, Car Repair, etc.

But, if those people wanted to actually know enough to do those things professionally, they would have to go through the exact same training as a complete novice.

Part of the "point" they are "losing" by paying the full cost results from the things that they have to "unlearn".

"Basting? I just wrap everything in foil and throw it in the oven!"

"Welding? You mean you don't really fix mufflers with aluminum tape and coathangers?"

 

There are real differences between training in a Skill and just picking up a few things by watching others, so I don't see a problem with the cost.

 

KA.

[chiralman]

Re: Bringing up Everyman Skills

 

Ah, the clouds are starting to clear a bit. I agree with Shadowpup, the reason to have Everyman Skills is to reflect common knowledge for Everyone in your game world... from punks to the highest authority. That's how it's intended to be used, right? If one were to argue for 'Lockpicking' to be an ES then everyone and their grandma would have Lockpicking, right?

 

I was tempted to make different Everyman Skills for different cultures, etc. but I came to the conclusion that these would be qualified as different Cultural Package Deals.

 

How do you differentiate, blackmoor? I guess it would help if we were kept in reference. It can get fatiguing enough keeping track of race/culture/environment/professional package deals, doesn't adding different ESs add to the confusion?

[JMcL63]

Re: Bringing up Everyman Skills

 

I've done some work developing Everyman lists for my fantasy background, to develop social/class backgrounds. I'd probably also develop alternate lists for different cultures too. With modern word-processors, I don't think that this is too difficult. Likewise with Packages. The point about these things in HERO is that they are a neat way of actually developing your background. I mean, does anyone here remember Warhammer FRP, with its careers? One of the things I liked about those was how the careers themselves provided you with a heap of the setting's background. So this is what I see Everyman lists and packages as doing, and is why I think that the effort is worth it.

[chiralman]

Re: Bringing up Everyman Skills

 

Aside from that, there is some logic to the way things currently work.

A lot of people currently have "everyman" skills like Cooking, Plumbing, Car Repair, etc.

But, if those people wanted to actually know enough to do those things professionally, they would have to go through the exact same training as a complete novice.

Part of the "point" they are "losing" by paying the full cost results from the things that they have to "unlearn".

"Basting? I just wrap everything in a foil and throw it in the oven!"

"Welding? You mean you don't really fix mufflers with aluminum tape and coathangers?"

 

There are real differences between training in a Skill and just picking up a few things by watching others, so I don't see a problem with the cost.

 

KA.

 

Now this is what I call an acceptable argument AGAINST the 2-pt cost argument. Very nicely done, KA!

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Bringing up Everyman Skills

 

Part of the "point" they are "losing" by paying the full cost results from the things that they have to "unlearn".... There are real differences between training in a Skill and just picking up a few things by watching others

 

That's not necessarily the case with Everyman Skills, but it's a pretty good rationalization.

[Agent X]

Re: Bringing up Everyman Skills

 

If they threatened to leave the game' date=' as you have,...[/quote'] You aren't getting it. What I think he and I are disturbed by is your statement that you would get rid of Everyman skills if someone advocated a cost break. I woulnd't leave a game because someone said no to another player about a cost break for everyman skills. I don't want a cost break for everyman skills. I would leave a game for a GM who reacts like you described though.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Bringing up Everyman Skills

 

I was tempted to make different Everyman Skills for different cultures' date=' etc.[/quote']

 

You mean like Vikings, citizens of a modern 21st-century country, or the sentient-on-the-street in a spacefaring science fiction culture?

[chiralman]

Re: Bringing up Everyman Skills

 

You mean like Vikings' date=' citizens of a modern 21st-century country, or the sentient-on-the-street in a spacefaring science fiction culture?[/quote']

 

...however, and here is where I think we're differing, my initial assumption is that all the characters have similar enough backgrounds to justify one blanket group of ESs. Everyone knows how to bandage themselves, everyone knows how to get their point across and get information, everyone knows how to work one kind of vehicle or ride one kind of animal (the specifics could be up to the player), everyone knows their way around their own homeland, etc. So to improve on this base-knowledge I wouldn't think it too out-of-bounds to spend two points instead of three.

 

However, thanks to KA and other constructive arguments (including you bblackmoor... I can't exclude you) I can honestly say that I see a valid justification as to why not to do that very thing. It's just about points with me, however, and still... as always... it's no hill to die on.

 

(pfffffffffft THWANG! ...ug ya got me!)

[JMcL63]

Re: Bringing up Everyman Skills

 

The simple fact is that either option- the official version, or the proposed house rule- can be rationalised easily enough. In fact, it could reasonably be argued that the house rule might be more logical, but I still don't like the idea. I simply don't like the notion of giving players too much for nothing. I happen to think that would create the wrong atmosphere in terms of players' expectations of what they're going to get out of the game. And I especially believe that 150pt heroes have more than enough points and so don't need the kind of break offered by this proposed house rule on Everyman skills. A friend of mine who GM's lots of heroic level HERO games has told me more than once that he finds 150pts to be too much at this level, making it too easy for players to start with characters who can do pretty much everything. So he plays with 100pt heroes, which he says forces players to specialise their characters more, thus creating more interesting parties. It's this kind of thing that happens when you hand out too much for nothing.

[KA.]

Re: Bringing up Everyman Skills

 

Now this is what I call an acceptable argument AGAINST the 2-pt cost argument. Very nicely done' date=' KA![/quote']

 

Thanks for the kind words, glad to be of help.

 

KA.

[Basil]

Re: Bringing up Everyman Skills

 

As the rules stand (and have done for some time too)' date=' Everyman skills do not count as points, so that you have to pay the full value to increase those skills. Oddly enough, under 4th ed., there were skills which I used to call 'Real Frees'. Basically, as well as the Everyman lists, every single character got (IIRC) 6pts of free skills (1pt AK, 1pt PS, and 4pts Language) that were [i']real[/i] points. That is gone now. I don't think that this is a bad thing, especially since the Everyman lists have been expanded.

 

Ah, thanks for bringing that up; I was going to, but you got there first.

 

Yes, 4th Edition's "some ES's you pay full price to upgrade, some you get a price-break on" was a bit confusing. However, once you realized that's what the inadequite text meant, it was easy enough to deal with.

 

Now, what's this "Everyman lists have been expanded" bafflegab? Sure, 5th Ed. page 29 has added Acting and Persuasion to the "modern" list of ESs in 4th Ed., but AK: Home, PS: whatever, and Local Language have been dropped! And that makes no sense at all to me. I mean, your character's almost certainaly knows the basics of his home, his language, and his job (side note: I always thought you should get one point of ES in a PS, KS, or SC, not neccesarily in only a PS). Oh sure, 5th Ed. p.43 mentions getting a free 4-point Language, but why isn't that mentioned on p.29?

 

Whether a price-break for all ESs, for some, or for none is best, is a matter for each GM, IMO. However, the official rules say, no price-breaks, however.

[Basil]

Re: Bringing up Everyman Skills

 

{snip}

1/4 teaspoon basil leaves, crushed

{snip}

 

Basil leaves, crushed, offended, and made more cynical by the abuse heaped on him.

 

Particularly having his size mocked---1/4 teaspoon indeed!

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Bringing up Everyman Skills

 

Basil leaves' date=' crushed, offended, and made more cynical by the abuse heaped on him. Particularly having his size mocked---1/4 teaspoon indeed![/quote']

 

Woot!

[Guest Worldmaker]

Re: Bringing up Everyman Skills

 

Sideline question:

 

I'm running a game set in the modern day, but with a higher level of technology due to the presence of metahuman "geniuses" and captured/purchased/salvaged alien technology. Would it be out of line to give my players some of the "everyman powers" listed in the Star Hero book?

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Bringing up Everyman Skills

 

It would totally depend on how widespread the technology is. If the common man could be expected to have at least minimal working knowledge of the technology, then sure.

 

Score another obvious answer for...Captaaaain Oooobviooooous!

 

(I'm unusually giddy this Friday evening )

[Guest Worldmaker]

Re: Bringing up Everyman Skills

 

It would totally depend on how widespread the technology is. If the common man could be expected to have at least minimal working knowledge of the technology, then sure.

 

Score another obvious answer for...Captaaaain Oooobviooooous!

 

(I'm unusually giddy this Friday evening )

 

 

Well, computers are even more ubiquitous than in the real world, there are permanent civilian settlements on the Moon and in orbit, and Ford manufactures and sells a flying car.

[zornwil]

Re: Bringing up Everyman Skills

 

Sideline question:

 

I'm running a game set in the modern day, but with a higher level of technology due to the presence of metahuman "geniuses" and captured/purchased/salvaged alien technology. Would it be out of line to give my players some of the "everyman powers" listed in the Star Hero book?

You know, that's really dicey, I'm not sure. I guess a FEW things, but I also think that the advent of a lot of the sci-fi-ish stuff for the general population is still recent enough there's a lot of "future shock" for older generations and (via that) even some lag among some segments of the younger population even.

 

So I guess I'd say go slow. The ones I think most people would be getting into, at least in developed nations:

 

- some level of Systems Operation - the basics of running a simple computer system, that would be essential, as I understand your world, to any newer home, so that skill would travel quickly

 

- because of flying cars and similar attention "up there", and the prevalence of navigational systems even for regular cars, I'd probably give a limited "Everyman Navigation" that is vehicle-dependent...

 

- which opens up an interesting can of worms - how many "Everyman Skills" are really "Everyman-who-has-a-net-connection Skills,", i.e., yes, they are mostly available but not when you're in Phase-by-Phase combat or stranded? so in many circumstances such as "everycomputer" I'd see Languages (via a limited UT), limited Computer Programming (given AIs and freeware, "whip me up a program to go through everyone in the phone book with the name of Bob X-"), etc.

 

Just a few thoughts for the moment...

[zornwil]

Re: Bringing up Everyman Skills

 

Well' date=' computers are even more ubiquitous than in the real world, there are permanent civilian settlements on the Moon and in orbit, and Ford manufactures and sells a flying car.[/quote']

But not just Ford, right? Didn't GM put out the first one?