Alpha Male Contest

[AnotherSkip]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

Y'know' date=' the Belgariad actually had some kinda cool ideas, for all its inanity, and this was one of them. Two wizards squared up and summoned demons - the trick was that you had to squeeze them into a certain shape. As long as you maintained concentration, and a clear image of the shape, you kept the demon bound. If you slipped, or made a mistake and thus lost concentration, or let yourself get distracted, you lost control of your demon. Which would then, most likely, eat you.[/quote']

 

Summon with either SFX for failure or a limitation that opposed per rolls affect the contest.

[Gary]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

Nobody has explained why Fireball or Meteor Swarm is somehow more "manly" than Insect Swarm or Creeping Doom.

[Chiba Bob]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

Omega male' date=' I like that, The fact that sports draw more spectators than chess matches suggests that the Omega male is no where near ascendancy. We're still moved more by aderenaline than by beta waves.[/quote']

 

 

Also the reason why people would rather be Rambo than Gandhi. I think Gandhi is a good example of the Omega Male.

 

 

.

[Chiba Bob]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

LOL

 

I'll do you the courtesy of treating that as a joke.

 

Half Joking

 

.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

Nobody has explained why Fireball or Meteor Swarm is somehow more "manly" than Insect Swarm or Creeping Doom.

 

Because THAT is not so? Wizard duels operate in a different paradigm. In a Wizard duel, the contest is over who is smarter, cannier, and more experienced in magic.

 

Wizards aren't brute force kinds of people.

 

 

Now, Supers genre... being smart is good, but only insofar as it helps you beat them up with your other abilities.

 

Or, alternatively:

Creeping Doom is a strawman. You control the insects as much as the pyromancer controls the fireball. It's when you have what can be termed an NPC (another consciousness) entering that it becomes non-Alpha.

 

Creeping Doom is a weapon. The issues comes when you have not weapons, but allies.

[Gary]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

Because THAT is not so? Wizard duels operate in a different paradigm. In a Wizard duel, the contest is over who is smarter, cannier, and more experienced in magic.

 

Wizards aren't brute force kinds of people.

 

 

Now, Supers genre... being smart is good, but only insofar as it helps you beat them up with your other abilities.

 

Or, alternatively:

Creeping Doom is a strawman. You control the insects as much as the pyromancer controls the fireball. It's when you have what can be termed an NPC (another consciousness) entering that it becomes non-Alpha.

 

Creeping Doom is a weapon. The issues comes when you have not weapons, but allies.

 

All spells are weapons. Why should Conjure Elemental be any different from Creeping Doom or Fireball?

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

All spells are weapons. Why should Conjure Elemental be any different from Creeping Doom or Fireball?

 

One is Summon, and the other two are EB/RKA variants...

 

Summon is manly if you just leave the summons to go bash them. At that point, it's an expression of contempt.

 

However, as a way to soak off damage, it's pragmatic but not 'manly'.

 

The Elemental is not an extension of your will. It's an underling. Using it indicates that you feel you need back up... you need to 'create a SPD advantage'.

 

In any event, Wizards aren't superheroes. It's apples and zucchinis.

[Pegasus]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

Nobody has explained why Fireball or Meteor Swarm is somehow more "manly" than Insect Swarm or Creeping Doom.

 

Because Fireball can't be stopped by a can of Raid?

 

Seriously, though, these particular summon spells don't seem to be the ones in question. The original topic (if I understand correctly) seemed to take issue with effects such as Gate or Clone which create another independently minded adversary, one who would/could keep fighting after the summoner had been defeated, for example.

 

Interesting thread, but there seems to be a base disagreement here. Some are arguing that the Alpha male battle is an elemental survival type fight, where you do whatever it takes to win, it's all good. The other interpretation is that it is a show of dominance in a social setting, battling for supremacy within a group by defeaty of an individual.

 

I find I'm drawn more to the social definition. The term "alpha male" is a social one, not a physical one. It encompasses physical (energy, magic, strength, whatever) as well as personal (intelligence, willpower, charisma, style) power. When an individual has exhibited the right measure of both, he is bequeathed the title or honor by the rest of the group. As someone alluded to before, if you can't get the group to follow you, you're not the alpha. Again, take the case of Guy Gardner in the JLI. Physical power? He had it in spades, over everyone else in the group except perhaps J'onn. Thus, he felt he should be the leader. The rest of the group made it abundantly clear that this was simply never going to happen. No personal power. The group made the decision. Even if he had somehow beaten Bats, they never would have followed him. Also for consideration, what happens when the alpha male leaves the group? Does he meet a group of strangers as an alpha? No, they don't know him thus he has no status. He can certainly try to gain the honor again with this group, but it does have to be earned.

 

Now the real question...is this happening between two players in your game?? That sounds like bad news!

[Gary]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

One is Summon, and the other two are EB/RKA variants...

 

Summon is manly if you just leave the summons to go bash them. At that point, it's an expression of contempt.

 

However, as a way to soak off damage, it's pragmatic but not 'manly'.

 

The Elemental is not an extension of your will. It's an underling. Using it indicates that you feel you need back up... you need to 'create a SPD advantage'.

 

In any event, Wizards aren't superheroes. It's apples and zucchinis.

 

 

You're metagaming here. From a game mechanic standpoint, you're correct that Creeping Dom would be a RKA. However from the point of view of one of the participants, a Creeping Doom is a Summons, not a RKA.

 

I highly disagree that an Elemental isn't an extension of your will. A wizard needs even more will than normal in order to dominate the Elemental. Far more will than what's needed to cast a fireball.

 

Wizards can be superheroes, just like any other archetype can be.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

You're metagaming here. From a game mechanic standpoint, you're correct that Creeping Dom would be a RKA. However from the point of view of one of the participants, a Creeping Doom is a Summons, not a RKA.

 

I highly disagree that an Elemental isn't an extension of your will. A wizard needs even more will than normal in order to dominate the Elemental. Far more will than what's needed to cast a fireball.

 

Wizards can be superheroes, just like any other archetype can be.

 

No, not metagaming. Using the game terms just helped clarify my point. (And YOU are the one who started it; using D&D spell names indeed! hmph )

 

'Summon Elemental' brings a sentient being into play as an ally. 'Creeping Doom' doesn't. It creates a mindless force of destruction under the direct control of the wizard.

 

The difference is whether you're using something whose intelligence and capacity for independent action is closer to that of a rock, or to that of a guy holding a rock.

 

When Wizards become superheroes, their spell lists change. A fantasy wizard can be a good-guy summoner or what not. A superheroic wizard (in the usual sense) is a variant of energy projector (and/or mentalist, or possibly other archetypes), and uses power directly on their opponents. Superheroes work directly (the exceptions to this rule tend to be fringe, less superheroey then the followers of the rule), and apply force directly.

[Vondy]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

Nobody has explained why Fireball or Meteor Swarm is somehow more "manly" than Insect Swarm or Creeping Doom.

Because the searing, purifiying fire is impressive and spectacular while the creeping insectile doom is just plain gross.

[Vondy]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

Not true. In Greek myths Paris killed Achilles in a battle of the Trojan War. Yet he was never considered an alpha male by the greeks. He did so from a distance without facing his foe. He won, but received no respect from his peers for winning. When you battle for social dominance beating the enemy is not the real victory. Convincing your peers that your victory gives you dominance over them is the real victory. It does not have to be explicitly stated, just acknowledged in some fashion.

 

The "alpha male" contest is a social one, not a physical battle. You have to win within the "rules" of the contest to have really won.

 

 

 

They are not manipulating social rules, but winning according to accepted rules, acknowledged or unacknowledged. By doing so they are the considered the leader of their pack. Leadership is nothing to do with realpolitick, but perceptions of their status within the group. If they do not exert realpolitick dominance their leadership may come under pressure and their status challenged. It may also change the rules of engagment as the social group believes different qualities are important.

 

 

 

 

Not really. The sorcerer's power means he is outside the society and more of a god than a member of it. A realworld analogy might be a 19th Century European with guns and technology. He can dominate the primative society, but is never accepted as part of it. As such he cannot truly be the alpha male.

 

The sorcerer wins, but dominates society as an outsider.

And yet he dominates it, doesn't he? If someone else wants to be dominant they have to challenge and defeat him.

 

The "alpha-male" isn't a human paradigm. Its a zoological term used by scientists who study wolves - though I have also heard it used as scientific slang to define the dominant silverback in a family of gorillas. It doesn't really apply to man at all, which is why I put "alpha" in quotes. Suggesting there is some sort of authoritative application of the concept to human interactions is balderdash - and the application you are suggesting (social dominance) has nothing to do with the topic of the thread, which carries the implicit assumption that the alpha uses realpolitick means (read - outright violence) to express his dominance, which is fully accurate to the wolves (and gorillas) the term was actually developed for. We're talking about two big bruisers proving who the baddest boy on the block is. You don't have to like him, you don't have to hang with him, but you do have to follow his rules of the street unless you plan on replacing him.

 

We'll simply have to agree to disagree.

[Half Baked]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

And yet he dominates it' date=' doesn't he? If someone else wants to be dominant they have to challenge and defeat him.[/quote']

No, they just have to kill him or remove him from power by any means. No challenge is necessary. There is no need to tell him or the group that a fight is imminent. If the sorcerer isn't part of the group he doesn't have to be challenged and defeated by the usual rules of engagement. Someone can kill him in his sleep or poison his dinner and the group will not impose any sort of social sanction. He is an usurper, not the rightful leader as he hasn't won by the established rules.

 

Lord of the Rings provides plenty of useful examples in a fantasy setting. Aragon and Boromir are to alpha males jockeying for position. They are both leaders in the classic warrior sense. Boromir sees Aragon as a threat to his leadership in Gondor. It has all the makings of a classic alpha male matchup. After the death of Gandalf in Moria Aragon takes over the leadership of the group. Boromir cannot replace him by killing him or even physically defeating him. He would have to be accepted by the rest of the fellowship as the leader. Those are the unspoken rules of the group. If it was as easy as just killing him in his sleep Boromir would have done that and taken the Ring to Gondor. In the end it was resolved by Boromir's death during which he acknowledged Aragon's rightful leadership.

 

On the other hand, they could just send Frodo through the backdoor and destroy the Ring without telling Sauron about the challenge. No need to worry about a challenge or a fight. Sauron was an usurper and no one cared how he was defeated. he just had to be defeated.

 

The "alpha-male" isn't a human paradigm. Its a zoological term used by scientists who study wolves - though I have also heard it used as scientific slang to define the dominant silverback in a family of gorillas. It doesn't really apply to man at all' date=' which is why I put "alpha" in quotes[/quote']

Alpha Male is a commonly used term to describe the dominant male of a human group. It has been co-opted from zoological studies into the general language. Most people know that the Alpha Male of a human group is the one the others defer to and give precedence to. Just because it was originally used by zoologists does not mean it cannot acquire other uses.

 

We're talking about two big bruisers proving who the baddest boy on the block is. You don't have to like him' date=' you don't have to hang with him, but you do have to follow his rules of the street unless you plan on replacing him.[/quote']

It is my point exactly. They have to prove it to the block. How do they prove it? By whatever means the rest of street considers acceptable. They may allow his mates to help or stabbing in the back or only a stand up toe to toe fight. The winner makes the rules of the street, but the social group sets the rules on how to challenge or replace him. It is the group that acknowledges the winner's right to set the rules of the street. It maybe that all he has to do is cow them with brutality or it may require other qualities.

 

The point I am trying to make is that Alpha Male's dominance is based on tacit acceptance by the group. It may just be who is the toughest brick or martial artist, not a formal leadership position. The winner still has prove to the spectators he has won and proved it acceptably. The bigger the audience the bigger the proof.

[Dog Soldier]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

People THINK they know what an Alpha Male is. Just look at the reaction in theis thread and you can see that there's no generally agreed upon definition for it as applied to humans. Some people think that "Alpha Male" sounds cool. It's not working though.

 

In human society the big, dumb brutes have to fight each other for the entertainment of the rest. Never forget, most gladiators were slaves.

[Gary]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

No' date=' not metagaming. Using the game terms just helped clarify my point. (And YOU are the one who started it; using D&D spell names indeed! hmph )[/quote']

 

Hey, why can't Champions characters use D&D spells?

 

 

'Summon Elemental' brings a sentient being into play as an ally. 'Creeping Doom' doesn't. It creates a mindless force of destruction under the direct control of the wizard.

 

The difference is whether you're using something whose intelligence and capacity for independent action is closer to that of a rock, or to that of a guy holding a rock.

 

 

I fail to see the difference. Summon Elemental and Creeping Doom both call other beings from elsewhere to aid the caster in battle. The intelligence issue is irrelevant. Suppose the caster Summoned a Golem. Somehow I think you would disqualify the Golem even though it has no intelligence.

 

 

When Wizards become superheroes, their spell lists change. A fantasy wizard can be a good-guy summoner or what not. A superheroic wizard (in the usual sense) is a variant of energy projector (and/or mentalist, or possibly other archetypes), and uses power directly on their opponents. Superheroes work directly (the exceptions to this rule tend to be fringe, less superheroey then the followers of the rule), and apply force directly.

 

 

I disagree. A superheroic wizard can have just as varied a spell list as a fantasy wizard. Comics are chock full of wizards with highly varied spell lists.

 

As for an example of a superhero who summons, Aquaman. He may be a lesser hero, but he certainly isn't a fringe hero.

[Nightfire]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

 

I fail to see the difference. Summon Elemental and Creeping Doom both call other beings from elsewhere to aid the caster in battle. The intelligence issue is irrelevant. Suppose the caster Summoned a Golem. Somehow I think you would disqualify the Golem even though it has no intelligence.

 

As for an example of a superhero who summons, Aquaman. He may be a lesser hero, but he certainly isn't a fringe hero.

 

Actually, Aquaman while enjoying name recognition is very much a fringe character. He has naver enjoyed the full respect his colleagues have. Cartoon Network has made him the butt of many jokes because of his ability to talk to and summon fish. Even in the Justice League Cartoon, Wonder Woman belittles him because in their battle he summoned sea creatures to help defeat her, so even in Amazon Society (i.e. where women rule) he is seen as weaker for having summoned. In the battle between himself and Namor in the Amalgam universe, they are both Sea Kings but Aquaman acknowledged that he was cheating by summoning a whale to pin Namor.

 

Perhaps he was a poor choice to defend the summoners.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

Hey, why can't Champions characters use D&D spells?

 

. No REASON as such... it's just a little... blah.

 

 

I fail to see the difference. Summon Elemental and Creeping Doom both call other beings from elsewhere to aid the caster in battle. The intelligence issue is irrelevant. Suppose the caster Summoned a Golem. Somehow I think you would disqualify the Golem even though it has no intelligence.

 

He doesn't have to handwalk the Golem through it's actions.

 

 

I disagree. A superheroic wizard can have just as varied a spell list as a fantasy wizard. Comics are chock full of wizards with highly varied spell lists.

 

As for an example of a superhero who summons, Aquaman. He may be a lesser hero, but he certainly isn't a fringe hero.

 

I didn't say not as varied. I just said they used different types of spells.A SuperMage is generally a blaster type, tactically.

 

And Aquaman wouldn't summon animals to help if he was trying to prove that _he_ is the better fighter.

 

(In other contexts, it's fine. No one minds fighting the big bad as a team... but fighting your teammate with a whale as backup?)

[Whitewings]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

In the battle between himself and Namor in the Amalgam universe' date=' they are both Sea Kings but Aquaman acknowledged that he was cheating by summoning a whale to pin Namor.[/quote']

 

Personally, I thought that was great. If I recall correctly, Namor said something along the lines of "I demand that you fight as befits a king of Atlantis!" and Aquaman took him at his word. Kings fight with armies and champions, Aquaman called up one of his champions

[Gary]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

He doesn't have to handwalk the Golem through it's actions.

 

 

He handwalks a golem as much as he handwalks a creeping doom. Both times, he points to a target and lets the summoned creature attack.

 

 

 

I didn't say not as varied. I just said they used different types of spells.A SuperMage is generally a blaster type, tactically.

 

And Aquaman wouldn't summon animals to help if he was trying to prove that _he_ is the better fighter.

 

(In other contexts, it's fine. No one minds fighting the big bad as a team... but fighting your teammate with a whale as backup?)

 

 

I don't really think SuperMages are generally blaster types. Dr. Strange, Dr. Fate, Zatanna, Talisman, Shaman, White Witch, Agatha Harkness, etc all do many more things than just blasting the target.

 

Aquaman was simply a comic book example of a summoner. There really aren't that many summoners in comics.

[zornwil]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

In comics there are often battles between two people that be classified as Alpha Males. Normally these fights are between brick types or martial artists where there is little in question about what powers would be considered unfair to use. In a recent discussion with someone on this board, I made the contention that the use of Duplication/Summoning would be unfair powers to use. My reasoning is that in a traditional street fight where one person is trying to prove themself the Alpha, it would be forbidden by the rules of engagement for anyone else to join in the fight.

 

Both Duplication and Summoning are the introduction of additional players to the fiield. My worthy opponent says that they should be considered legitimate abilities, otherwise Strength, Dex , Con and Speed would be the only fair determining factors. His example is that some one who uses Evocation magic (i.e calling powers to the field) is the same as a Summoner calling monsters . . . I disagree because the evocation (or say for example the stuff that comes out of Green Lantern's Ring) is still under the direct control of the evoker, where as something from a summoner ( a monster, or in comic examples Duo Damsel) brings someone else to the field.

 

In the real would becoming the Alpha male of a group is a one on one struggle, granted powers skews this a bit, but I believe the same rules would apply. So I ask the group, would summoning/duplication be viable abilities in such a contest, or do they fall out side of the scope of what "macho" men would use to prove themselves the superior individual?

I ran something much like this, a Battle Royale for Sorcerer Supreme, the customary method of ascendance; the candidates, each with a second who assists them throughout, must move along a path fraught with dangers, though the dangers aren't intended to stop them, just slow them down. They get to the battle area and battle as they encounter eachother - it's a bit of a two-edged sword getting their early as it means you probably end up facing more than one adversary, although of course the advantage is in setting the battlefield to one's liking.

 

Anyway, as this is for Sorcerer Supreme, absolutely nothing is disallowed aside from bringing in additional third parties (which does not include summoning, though I grant that could be tricky) or other more obvious forms of going beyond the minimal rules. It is a bit of a common sense thing and moreover a contestant has to consider they will continue to have to see the others.

[zornwil]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

Because the searing' date=' purifiying fire is impressive and spectacular while the creeping insectile doom is just plain gross.[/quote']

Oh, fie on thee, you wouldn't last long in my games with THAT attitude, MISTER!

 

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

He handwalks a golem as much as he handwalks a creeping doom. Both times, he points to a target and lets the summoned creature attack.

 

If the 'Golem' is essentially an SFX for TK, it's okay, if it's an automaton, it's not. The difference implied when choosing as the way to build between the two mechanical constructs is roughly the boundary line between 'manly' and 'unmanly'.

 

I don't really think SuperMages are generally blaster types. Dr. Strange, Dr. Fate, Zatanna, Talisman, Shaman, White Witch, Agatha Harkness, etc all do many more things than just blasting the target.

 

Aquaman was simply a comic book example of a summoner. There really aren't that many summoners in comics.

 

They do a lot of things, yes. But it mostly boils down to 'I do something to X' (in feel), as opposed to something less direct (like summoning a demon to fight your battle...).

 

And I suspect the lack of comic book summoners is not coincidental, and ties in directly to the idea that the average reader considers it unmanly...

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

In human society the big' date=' dumb brutes have to fight each other for the entertainment of the rest. Never forget, most gladiators were slaves.[/quote']

 

Go read R.D. Reynold's _Wrestlecrap! The Very Worst of Pro Wrestling_ and you'll see that the BDB's position hasn't improved all that much.

[Gary]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

If the 'Golem' is essentially an SFX for TK' date=' it's okay, if it's an automaton, it's not. The difference implied when choosing as the way to build between the two mechanical constructs is roughly the boundary line between 'manly' and 'unmanly'.[/quote']

 

You're metagaming again. The special effect for both is summons. The actual game effect doesn't matter.

 

 

They do a lot of things, yes. But it mostly boils down to 'I do something to X' (in feel), as opposed to something less direct (like summoning a demon to fight your battle...).

 

And I suspect the lack of comic book summoners is not coincidental, and ties in directly to the idea that the average reader considers it unmanly...

 

Of course some people have duplication as their schtick, such as Duo Damsel and Jamie Madrox, the Multiple Man.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Alpha Male Contest

 

You're metagaming again. The special effect for both is summons. The actual game effect doesn't matter.

 

 

 

 

Of course some people have duplication as their schtick, such as Duo Damsel and Jamie Madrox, the Multiple Man.

 

Okay. If it's 'me, myselves and I', then really, it's all about you. Go for it. Collectively, you're a badass.

 

And I restate: it's not metagaming, it's the clearest way to make the distinction I see. A humanoid rocky statue being animated by their will to bash the enemy = an extension of your personal power. Most interpretations of a Golem, however, are essentially - you called in your robot buddy.