Fate systems

[Kristopher]

Re: Fate systems

 

I was posting in seriousness. Talk of Deadlands with its dice and chips and cards and various other sundry things had me thinking of complexity and randomness. Also, someone spoke of encouraging foolishness amoungst the PCs, something I wish to avoid -- foolishness gets PCs killed.

 

Based on what you described, however, I'll have to think on it some more. Inserting a mechanism to superceed the fickleness of the dice in dire circumstances has a definite appeal.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Fate systems

 

We've been using a system like the one I mentioned above in all of our games for years, HERO or not. It really helps to control the total fickleness of the dice, especially when a character fails at an action that it really makes sense for him to acheive. Such systems offer a way to avoid those failures, without GM having to be completely arbitrary... it's up to the players to handle.

 

In our discussion before last nights game, the players also said they really like having the fate system tied to XP as it gives the use of fate more weight, and allows players who are comfortable with not using fate to be "rewarded" for that, while those who do are "rewarded" with the satisfaction of heroic/cinematic actions. I have found it always to be a fun balance, but YMMV. The group of players I play with appreciate and enjoy the system, but I can understand if not everyone would.

[Titan59]

Re: Fate systems

 

For many years I used a system of Hero points. Basically players started with 3 and got as many of them after each scenario as they got xp. A Hero point could be used one time only to set any die to any result you wanted after the die had been rolled. Mostly they were used to reduce the body dice of nasty incoming killing attacks to 1 or to reduce the stun lottery on killing attacks. Real power players could use them for other things but my players tended to keep them to improve survivability. Once in a blue moon somebody used one to land a really satisfying blow on a hated enemy but that was rare. They also used them to make those rolls they just absolutely had to make. This system worked pretty well with the players I had but is obviously open to abuse. It can also deflate the tension from game critical rolls like that demolitions roll to defuse the bomb that will level the city if you don't make it.

 

The Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay Fate point system is great. I can recommend it heartily.

[JmOz]

Re: Fate systems

 

We've been using a system like the one I mentioned above in all of our games for years, HERO or not. It really helps to control the total fickleness of the dice, especially when a character fails at an action that it really makes sense for him to acheive. Such systems offer a way to avoid those failures, without GM having to be completely arbitrary... it's up to the players to handle.

 

In our discussion before last nights game, the players also said they really like having the fate system tied to XP as it gives the use of fate more weight, and allows players who are comfortable with not using fate to be "rewarded" for that, while those who do are "rewarded" with the satisfaction of heroic/cinematic actions. I have found it always to be a fun balance, but YMMV. The group of players I play with appreciate and enjoy the system, but I can understand if not everyone would.

 

I see no problem tying it to xp AS LONG AS it is not the only source of xp

[RDU Neil]

Re: Fate systems

 

I was posting in seriousness. Talk of Deadlands with its dice and chips and cards and various other sundry things had me thinking of complexity and randomness. Also, someone spoke of encouraging foolishness amoungst the PCs, something I wish to avoid -- foolishness gets PCs killed.

 

Based on what you described, however, I'll have to think on it some more. Inserting a mechanism to superceed the fickleness of the dice in dire circumstances has a definite appeal.

 

I wouldn't say it encourages foolishness, but it does encourage a little more risk taking. IMO, this is a good thing. Especially for action adventure/supers style games. It should be a game where players are comfortable throwing their characters into dangerous situations. The chits are a mechanic that gives the PLAYER some of the high confidence that the CHARACTER should feel.

 

Now some games, high MUD games, or Cthulhu style danger games... chits might not be appropriate. In those games you want the characters running and hiding and being paranoid and ultra careful. That is the point. Chits might ruin that... but for the supers style, or high action... you want characters who will risk running into the burning building... who see a hand to hand fight with twenty thugs as "tough, but doable" not "impossible." Chits can help this a lot.

[Vengeance]

Re: Fate systems

 

In regards to:

Originally Posted by Kristopher

I'm afraid I don't see the appeal to all these added mechanics and increased randomness.

 

and RDU Neils follow up:

... this mechanic doesn't actually add randomness... and can in fact, minimize it. It is most often used for those straight forward actions that go horribly awry when the dice roll an 18 or something.

 

I have to say I agree with Neil. Neil and I have been gaming together 17+ years now and he's always tried to tweak the rules to make them better. Some of the rule changes (stun multiplier changes, etc...) I never really cared about but I have to say the introduction of the luck chits was a phenomenal change.

 

In the past, games have built to that climactic moment when you are about to take down the villian and then along comes your friend and mine: a roll of 18. It doesn't matter if it was your hit roll, dodge roll, armor activation -- regardless, you're screwed. And the reaction was always: "I can't believe that just happened!" And then you would start trying to justify why it can't happen, and try to guilt trip the gm into a deus ex machina moment where he undoes what just occurred. Sure, most of the time we could talk Neil into not hurting our characters as royally as they deserved because of the 18, but it never felt right.

 

Now, with luck chits, it puts the "GM Guilt Trip (14-)" out of play. Everybody gets at least 1 luck chit they can use to save their character. And if you treat it like a precious commodity it will. But if you blow it on something stupid (i.e. I re-rolling a punch that doesn't have any real affect on the game) and you really need it later to dodge the 3d6 AP Killing Attack -- too bad. And, usually, you don't try and guilt trip the GM because you know it's your fault. And Neil knows it's your fault.

 

Actually, one of the more interesting things to me now is when do I use the chits. I'm sometimes get like an insuranceman with actuarial tables. Brick-O is throwing a punch at me that, if it lands, may crush my character. Do I waste a chit to dodge? Hmmm. I figure he's got to roll a 9- or less for the punch to hit. 40% chance that happens. Damage will probably be about 15-20 d6. Average roll will be 50 - 60. Armor and defenses should take it down to 25. My CON is 26 so I probably won't be CON stunned. I'm saving the chit!

 

I can't tell you how much I have loved this change. I highly recommend you try it in your campaign.

[Foxx!]

Re: Fate systems

 

Heroes!

 

For about a year I have been trying the fate system I described eaerlier. I want to stop using it because it seems to interfere with play. Players who use fate points started to act as if they are invincible when they have points and useless when they don’t have points. But other players never use them at all because they don’t want to waste them.

 

I like the idea, and I agree that this kind of system saves everyone from bad dice rolls, but people I play with tend to completely ignore the fate points or focus too much on them. Does anyone have any helpful ideas?

 

Cheers!

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Fate systems

 

Frankly, I think you give too many action points. 10 points per session is a lot. In the abstract, I would suggest that you use a system that rewards those players who both use and don't use the points. If you reduce the opportunity to use the points, but increase the effectiveness by a lesser amount you end up with fewer points that mean a little more. Additionally, there needs to be some XP correlation for those who do not wish to spend them.

 

The fate system that I use encourages the use of fate in play, dramatically, but also rewards those who do not use them by giving them more XP. The concept was essentially a limited form of Luck that is single use, non-recoverable (with some handwaving). The values we settled on work very well.

 

The feedback we also got in playtesting was that by removing the crunchiness of the fate system (i.e. direct point modifications), it made the fate system seem more fateful and easier to play.

 

I have used fate systems in the past that were more point oriented and they did start to feel like the players were invincible. We don't get that at all with our current system.

 

This is also a good mechanic for power stunts - 1 chip allows 1 stunt.

 

Here's a link: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=467621#post467621

[Bucky]

Re: Fate systems

 

I am thinking of a house rule to affect the die rules and would love to see what others have done.

As some of us are refugees from D20, we get confused as to when we need to roll low. Sometimes, (very rarely) our GM has allowed rerolls, to make up for "pyschic confusion".

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Fate systems

 

Hmmm, I'm not sure I would offer such sympathy. One thing I do tell my players to to have a set of 3d6 for all skill rolls and a set of d6 for damage. If they're different size or colors, all the better. The 3d6 are always used for "roll low". The others are damage and are for high rolls.

 

problem solved.

[StGrimblefig]

Re: Fate systems

 

First off, I would agree that 10pts/session seems like a lot. I don't think John McClane used that many points in Die Hard (let's see ... jumping off a building with a fire hose tied around your waist, that's 1 ...).

 

Second, it seems like your players have trouble budgeting their expeditures -- I wonder if they have the same trouble with their money?

 

Third, Remind the players that the Characters don't know how much fate/good karma/etc they have available, so they should not change their behavior because of a game mechanic.

 

As for practical suggestions: I can think of two:

 

1) Hide the actual number of points that a character has available, and only let them know if they have enough to do what they want to do when they try to use them. That forces the players to play their characters like the third point, above. However, that feels too much like a GM just fudging things for dramatic effect, which you could do without a set of Fate rules.

 

2) Only give out points for "acting in character" -- that is, the character behaving as defined in their background and/or as defined by their Psych Lims. If a character is defined as having a bipolar disorder, then alternately behaving invincable and useless may be appropriate, but otherwise it is out of character behavior, and earns no points. Alternately, you could make the points less effective (or require an EGO roll to use them) if they are used in out of character activities.

[Rapier]

Re: Fate systems

 

I've had bad experiences with a Fate Point type of system.

 

I had similar experiences as you. People either hoard them and never use them, or use them too frequently. It also tends to invalidate character development. Why bother buying up this skill, when I could just dump a Fate Point on it if I ever need it?

 

It also is disheartening for the people that did roll well, or those that did spend all the points to buy up a skill.

 

Dump the Fate Points entirely. Sometimes a bad roll is not necessarily a bad thing. How else do you develop character if you remove the adversity of day to day life?

[Foxx!]

Re: Fate systems

 

First off, I would agree that 10pts/session seems like a lot. I don't think John McClane used that many points in Die Hard (let's see ... jumping off a building with a fire hose tied around your waist, that's 1 ...).

 

Second, it seems like your players have trouble budgeting their expeditures -- I wonder if they have the same trouble with their money?

 

Third, Remind the players that the Characters don't know how much fate/good karma/etc they have available, so they should not change their behavior because of a game mechanic.

 

As for practical suggestions: I can think of two:

 

1) Hide the actual number of points that a character has available, and only let them know if they have enough to do what they want to do when they try to use them. That forces the players to play their characters like the third point, above. However, that feels too much like a GM just fudging things for dramatic effect, which you could do without a set of Fate rules.

 

2) Only give out points for "acting in character" -- that is, the character behaving as defined in their background and/or as defined by their Psych Lims. If a character is defined as having a bipolar disorder, then alternately behaving invincable and useless may be appropriate, but otherwise it is out of character behavior, and earns no points. Alternately, you could make the points less effective (or require an EGO roll to use them) if they are used in out of character activities.

Thank you. These sound like good ideas. I think they put more focus on role playing and less on mechanics, and too much focus on mechanics was probably one problem with the system I used.

 

I'm cautious about giving out points only to the players who play in character, but if I think about it, that's no different than giving extra PRE attack dice for good acting.

 

And yes, I think many of them have trouble with managing money too.

 

Frankly, I think you give too many action points. 10 points per session is a lot. In the abstract, I would suggest that you use a system that rewards those players who both use and don't use the points. If you reduce the opportunity to use the points, but increase the effectiveness by a lesser amount you end up with fewer points that mean a little more. Additionally, there needs to be some XP correlation for those who do not wish to spend them.

 

The fate system that I use encourages the use of fate in play, dramatically, but also rewards those who do not use them by giving them more XP. The concept was essentially a limited form of Luck that is single use, non-recoverable (with some handwaving). The values we settled on work very well.

Thank you for the system idea. I agree that a few big points are better than many little ones.

 

I'm not sure I want to give XP to people who don't use the points because I think many of my players will never use the points. However, I agree with you that it's good to have a system where people who don't want to use fate points can get something else. How about a Favour perk, small amount of money, or something else for the character?

 

Cheers!

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Fate systems

 

Foxx!, the suggestions you've been given are all very solid ones. The only other thing I can offer is this: when I've used a Fate Point mechanic in my games I have the characters buy them with Experience rather than awarding a separate pool. This makes the players think about where they want to allocate their Experience, and balances characters who use Fate Points against those who don't since they both gain something usable in game from the same pool of Experience.

 

In my games Fate Points are still permanently expended when a character uses them and have to be reacquired with more Experience, so a cost break seemed appropriate. I use 1 Character Point = 3 Fate Points, which seemed to work pretty well. I based the cost on hypothetically buying Character Points with the "Never Recovers" Limitation from Charges (-2). Of course you can adjust the cost ratio to whatever you and your players are comfortable with.

 

I hope that's of some use to you.

[Foxx!]

Re: Fate systems

 

Foxx!, the suggestions you've been given are all very solid ones. The only other thing I can offer is this: when I've used a Fate Point mechanic in my games I have the characters buy them with Experience rather than awarding a separate pool. This makes the players think about where they want to allocate their Experience, and balances characters who use Fate Points against those who don't since they both gain something usable in game from the same pool of Experience.

 

In my games Fate Points are still permanently expended when a character uses them and have to be reacquired with more Experience, so a cost break seemed appropriate. I use 1 Character Point = 3 Fate Points, which seemed to work pretty well. I based the cost on hypothetically buying Character Points with the "Never Recovers" Limitation from Charges (-2). Of course you can adjust the cost ratio to whatever you and your players are comfortable with.

 

I hope that's of some use to you.

Lord Liaden!

 

Yes, it's very useful advice. Thank you. This does solve both the problems I had. And if I didn't say it earlier, I like the Action Point system you introduced. I'm going to use that now.

 

After thinking more about what Mudpyr8 and St. Grimblefig, I got an idea. Instead of giving Action points to each player, I give Action points to the whole group. They get 1d6-1 for that day, but they don't know how many they have. If they don't use the points, I can use them secretly when they need them. What do you think?

 

Cheers!

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Fate systems

 

Lord Liaden!

 

Yes, it's very useful advice. Thank you. This does solve both the problems I had. And if I didn't say it earlier, I like the Action Point system you introduced. I'm going to use that now.

 

Glad that works for you. For the record, the Action Points! system was designed by Jesse Zwerling for his pulp campaign Thrilling True Tales, linked to in my first post early on this thread. (I'm sure you remember that, but I want to be sure that credit is given where it's due.)

 

While I mostly followed Jesse's system in terms of when and how the points could be used, I also referred to Donald Doepke's expanded "Dramatic Editing" chart for Inspiration Points, adapted from the mechanic for White Wolf's Adventure! game (also linked to in that same post).

 

 

After thinking more about what Mudpyr8 and St. Grimblefig, I got an idea. Instead of giving Action points to each player, I give Action points to the whole group. They get 1d6-1 for that day, but they don't know how many they have. If they don't use the points, I can use them secretly when they need them. What do you think?

 

Cheers!

 

Well, that does address the issues that have concerned you. Using the points secretly isn't much different in principle from the GM "fudging" a roll on occasion to help players, which is a common tactic. Your using the points that way would probably work if your players trust you to assign them fairly, and that if they discover they've run out of them it's because you used them wisely.

 

Personally I'd say it's safer to leave access to that pool of points solely in the hands of the PCs, just to avoid potential conflict. You still have randomness in the way they acquire them, so they can't be sure how many they've used up. And you can continue to goose their die rolls when you deem appropriate without having to use up Action Points.

[Foxx!]

Re: Fate systems

 

Well' date=' that does address the issues that have concerned you. Using the points secretly isn't much different in principle from the GM "fudging" a roll on occasion to help players, which is a common tactic. Your using the points that way would probably work [b']if[/b] your players trust you to assign them fairly, and that if they discover they've run out of them it's because you used them wisely.

 

Personally I'd say it's safer to leave access to that pool of points solely in the hands of the PCs, just to avoid potential conflict. You still have randomness in the way they acquire them, so they can't be sure how many they've used up. And you can continue to goose their die rolls when you deem appropriate without having to use up Action Points.

Lord Liaden!

 

Again, good advice. Thank you.

 

Cheers!

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Fate systems

 

You know, since replying to Foxx! I've been thinking over my suggestion about how to buy Luck/Fate/etc. points with Experience, and how that might be coordinated with the mechanics of the system, and a thought struck me:

 

How about buying a pool of Character Points with the "Never Recovers" Limitation from Charges (-2), and setting them aside like unused Experience? When the time came a PC could expend those points to "buy" abilities like any other CP, on anything that would be useful at the time (GM permitting); but they'd only be usable once before being expended. The cost break (3 for one Character Point) and flexibility would offset the fact that the character loses those points permanently after use.

 

For example, the character could for one occasion buy extra Levels with a Skill he really needed to succeed on, extra CV to assure a hit on (or miss by) that special someone, extra Damage Classes for an attack that has to put an opponent down NOW, extra Strength for that last heave of desperation, etc.

 

I haven't thought through all the implications of this yet. How do you guys see it?

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Fate systems

 

I think this is getting too specific. However, if you were using charges, it would be 1 charge for -2, and never recovers for -2, for a net multiplier of 1/5. That means its worth roughly 2 skill levels per point (i.e. +2 OCV, +2 skill, +1 DC).

 

I think that could work out okay, but I don't think it's enough effect for 1 character point.

 

Having used my fate system for years I neither find it unbalanced or abusive. I think an abstract system is more cinematic, and even those players that don't like to spend chips to manage their fate (preferring to convert them all into XP) still spend them occasionally (e.g. Roll with Blow after a megahit lands on them inspite of their 15 DCV). Prior to this system we employed a very points intensive 1 Fate Point = x points of effect, and it became too cumbersome and too predictable. That isn't to say that system wasn't flawed in its own right, just that the gaming of the fate system was never nearly as fun and enjoyable as our current one.

 

Given the lower number of chips and their increased utility you end up with characters willing to attempt truely cinematic actions they would otherwise avoid and your story is better for it.

 

If you are making a system so players can hedge their bets on whether they succeed you may find yourself in a much more mechanical game than you envisioned. I think the fate systems should enhance the character's ability to be cinematic and enhance the story, as well as prevent one bad roll from ruining their style.

[Silbeg]

Re: Fate systems

 

As SS said... here is my Luck Chit system w/explanation, as edited by a board member who liked it.

 

 

 

Any questions and I'd be happy to answer them. It works insanely well, IMO, allowing free form players and tactical players to both utilize the system to get what they want out of the game. This narrowly beats out abandoning the Speed Chart for initiative as the best change I've made in using Hero for my games.

 

Tried your system for the first time on Sat... my players seemed to like it, at least on the first pass.

 

Here is the funny thing, though.

 

2 characters drew white (neither used their chits). Shugokon, the MA, probably should have taken the free recovery... d'oh!

 

1 character drew Green - the team brick. He used his to make sure he got KB (by removing one of the dice... didn't think at that time about it actually not fitting the rule, but it made sense cinematically... of course the villain he tagged ended up with a free recovery!)

 

1 character drew blue... a new blaster character... can't recall what he used it on, but use it he did.

 

Question, though...

 

with the conversion rate (1 green == 2 white), does that mean they can convert 1 chit of a higher color into multiple lower ones?

[RDU Neil]

Re: Fate systems

 

Tried your system for the first time on Sat... my players seemed to like it, at least on the first pass.

 

Here is the funny thing, though.

 

2 characters drew white (neither used their chits). Shugokon, the MA, probably should have taken the free recovery... d'oh!

 

1 character drew Green - the team brick. He used his to make sure he got KB (by removing one of the dice... didn't think at that time about it actually not fitting the rule, but it made sense cinematically... of course the villain he tagged ended up with a free recovery!)

 

1 character drew blue... a new blaster character... can't recall what he used it on, but use it he did.

 

Question, though...

 

with the conversion rate (1 green == 2 white), does that mean they can convert 1 chit of a higher color into multiple lower ones?

 

Glad they liked it. Yeah... you can convert one higher one to a multiple lower ones. 1 Blue equals 3 white or a Green and a white. 1 Green equals 2 white. Sometimes you want more white... to get recoveries and blocks and such... sometimes you want blues to pull off "power stunts" or whatever.

 

I had a desol character in a recent game spend a blue and all the rest of his combat actions, to turn a bomb desol and sink it into the ground before it blew. He could do nothing while enemy agents tried to zap him with phase disruptors and the like while his teammates pounded him... but he held (made Ego rolls) through multiple attacks and stopped the bomb. That is the kind of fun stuff a player can pull off with blue chits.

 

As GM... did you spend chits to give villains recoveries and blue chits for miraculous escapes? Also, be open about reminding players to spend their chits. I know some games go by and players just don't need 'em, but often they just forget. Feel free to remind 'em, any time things are looking bad for them. They'll see that as you being fair, and won't blink when you spend a chit or two to nail them, or save a villain.

 

Enjoy!

[Silbeg]

Re: Fate systems

 

Glad they liked it. Yeah... you can convert one higher one to a multiple lower ones. 1 Blue equals 3 white or a Green and a white. 1 Green equals 2 white. Sometimes you want more white... to get recoveries and blocks and such... sometimes you want blues to pull off "power stunts" or whatever.

 

Thanks, that is what we thought, but the two players that had drawn the non-white chits used them as their specials.

 

I had a desol character in a recent game spend a blue and all the rest of his combat actions, to turn a bomb desol and sink it into the ground before it blew. He could do nothing while enemy agents tried to zap him with phase disruptors and the like while his teammates pounded him... but he held (made Ego rolls) through multiple attacks and stopped the bomb. That is the kind of fun stuff a player can pull off with blue chits.

Reminds me of a situation that would have been covered by the chits... while playing through the amusement park scenario in Champions Battlegrounds, the team teleporter had responded to the falling ride. Not having the STR to stop the fall, he chose to try his You are a missile power (basically an offensive aportation, usable only against moving targets), to stop the fall. He had to add several mass multipliers, as well as "No Relative Velocity" in order to succeed.... and he actually didn't have the power skill (yet). So, I gave him a chance, since he had thought it out well... and after a great EGO roll, conculded that he succeeded... though the push used up all of his END, as well as all of his STUN! I ruled that the effort had a "burn-out" effect, and that his body was overtaxed (basically he was at 1/2 STUN, 1/2 END, 1/2 BODY, and it would only recover naturally... no healing of any kind). This would have been the perfect effect for a blue chit!

 

As GM... did you spend chits to give villains recoveries and blue chits for miraculous escapes?

Do you typically give the villains (at least the key villains) chits? Didn't actually do that. I did spend the chit that was earned by the use of a green chit to give a villain a recovery, though.

 

 

 

Also, be open about reminding players to spend their chits. I know some games go by and players just don't need 'em, but often they just forget. Feel free to remind 'em, any time things are looking bad for them. They'll see that as you being fair, and won't blink when you spend a chit or two to nail them, or save a villain.

Enjoy!

That assumes that I remember.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Fate systems

 

 

Do you typically give the villains (at least the key villains) chits? Didn't actually do that. I did spend the chit that was earned by the use of a green chit to give a villain a recovery, though.

 

As GM, yes, I draw about five chits, after players have drawn all of theirs. (Gold chit just goes back in the bag, GM doesn't need it.) I will even draw a couple more if certain villains have luck as well, but I limit how many I can spend on each villain. They do get surprise recoveries or can abort to dodge... often save a blue to see if I can wrangle an escape at the end, if needed.

 

I've even spent chits FOR the players, when an NPC has done something, or most like when a player has a cool idea for something an NPC might do. (Giving players a bit of director stance is cool... but that's a different thread.)

 

Last game, got into a bidding war between players and GM as one friend, just visiting and doesn't regularly game with us, played three of my villains. He was spending chits like water to have them do cool stuff. It's kinda funny, but when another player is trying to hammer them, the PC players don't seem to mind as much as they would if I, the actual GM, was to have the villains act that way.

[Silbeg]

Re: Fate systems

 

As GM' date=' yes, I draw about five chits, after players have drawn all of theirs. (Gold chit just goes back in the bag, GM doesn't need it.) I will even draw a couple more if certain villains have luck as well, but I limit how many I can spend on each villain. They do get surprise recoveries or can abort to dodge... often save a blue to see if I can wrangle an escape at the end, if needed.[/quote']

I assume that the five has to do with the size of the gaming group?

 

In any case, I do have a question, on the interaction with your system, and Unluck. Since the Luck power adds an additional chit, what does Unluck do? I am thinking that you could draw an additional chit for the opponents for every die of Unluck a character has, usable only against that character. Does that sound fair?

 

I really don't like the fact that players avoid the Unluck disadvantage like the plague. Many characters should have Unluck, based on their back story, but the fealing seems to be that this is an effect that puts too much power in the GM's hands. I personally don't get it, as any Vulnerability or Susceptibility could be more easily exploited for non-cinematic reasons, but...

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Fate systems

 

Here's an interesting essay by the always thoughtful John H. Kim, on the evolution and design issues of Hero Point Mechanics.