Steve Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 Re: Evolution of the races? Another thing to consider is that the presence of magic (or essence or whatever word you prefer) could have accelerated the divergence of the original race into multiple species in a relatively short time. Think of it as being like a specialized form of radiation. If there were storms of essence in the prehistoric world, the changes could have happened in only a few generations as the DNA starts mutating and some of the mutant strains prove superior. Elves could be a race that received a beneficial essence mutation, which explains their long lives and natural talent with wielding magic. Orcs (or goblins or whatever word you prefer) could have been devolved from the original stock, enhancing their physical characteristics but reducing their mental abilities. Humans could be the original stock, but the modern version of them are those of the original stock that proved most resistant to the essence storms. Dwarves could have evolved from humans that hid in deep caves from the storms, and the essence radiation had a different effect after having to pass through rock (although this makes Dwarves sound more like Morlocs). This is also a way to explain monsters, as they are essence-mutated forms of more familiar animals. The Shadow World from ICE posited a combination effect of essence radiation and a now-vanished master race that created other races to serve them. For example, Elves in the Shadow World were basically pets of the K'ta'viri (sp?) and the elven word for their race (Ilari) translated as "pretties" in an amusing note. However, when the K'ta'viri destroyed themselves in a great war (think something apocalyptic) their subject races had to survive in a world where storms of essence ravaged the planet. That mutated the original stocks even more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkdguy Posted October 24, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 Re: Evolution of the races? Good point, although I prefer worlds with little to no magic. That would minimize, if not completely negate any magical intervention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcady Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 Re: Evolution of the races? The problem with using genetic manipulation as the method by which the different species originated is that it is basically no different than having them originate via magic or divine intervention. The races didnt evolve... they were made.Where they? In who's setting? This is a setting dependant statement. It does have a difference though. If they evolved they will likely have certain similarities and if they were designed they would likely have different similarities. In my own setting two races evolved - dragons and humans. Faerie are other worldly and just what they are is unknown - they are more like ghosts that never lived than anything else. The other races were made by dragons or humans through accident or intent - but this was done by using magic to mix races that cannot do so naturally, like cats and humans, with the aim of a specific result - a humanoid cat - rather than what would logically happen if you spliced cat DNA into human - something that probably would not live much beyond birth, if it even made it that far. Or in the case of accidents, magic simply grabbed up what was nearby and changed it to 'correct' for the arrogance of mages. There is in inherrant flavor difference in an evolved origin from a magical one. Once you use an evolved origin you are also postulating that your world fits scientific norms enough to allow for that eviolution. Evolution into humans will not happen on the back of a giant elephant - the physics to get the right atmosphere won't be there - but magical origins might work there, where you can push past the laws of physics or even declare them completely moot. That flavor difference will seep out intoother aspects of the world - creating very different end results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outsider Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 Re: Evolution of the races? My point was that 'genetic engineering' is functionally very much like "that created by the gods or magical creatures stuff" that tdkguy said he wanst after in the first post. GE is a perfectly good explaination if that is what one is looking for. Tdkguy specifically wanted help on setting up an evolutionary origin, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbsousa Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 Re: Evolution of the races? Here's an article that may provide some inspiration for this topic... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcady Posted October 27, 2004 Report Share Posted October 27, 2004 Re: Evolution of the races? Tdkguy specifically wanted help on setting up an evolutionary origin' date=' though.[/quote']OK, I was reading your post in a general sense. Evolution could result in multiple intelligent species, and indeed did in Earth's history under three possible means, two facts one hypothesis: Fact: Several homonid branches did exist at one time, One of them as recelty as a few thousand years ago (Neandertal). We have no explaination for why they no longer exist and can only speculate as to what happened. Did they go away from our violence upon them, from their own troubles, from an environmental cataclysm, or what? Time may someday answer this, but at present we don't know. Hypothesis: Dolphins are as intelligent as humans. This is a popular belief that seems to have logical basis but science has as yet not delievered a viable means of testing it. Fact: Chimpanzees, and especially Bonobos are so close to humans that many biologists now class them as the same species. Bonobos are by some considered to be more 'humans that look like chimps' than they are 'chimps that act like humans.' What does that mean for the nature of what it means to be human? If this new classification gains weight and overcomes moral objection what will that do to our understanding of intelligence? This one is listed as a fact - because it is a fact that we are re-evaluating the definition of humanity. The conflusions discussed in this issue are however all theories and hypothesis. The fact at issue is the existance of the discussion - itself something revolutionary. What would it take to get a species to branch out? Isolation. Either geographic, political, or niche wise - if a species is split apart for long enough or at the exact right moment it will diverge into two or more branches. What makes a species? Typicall the ability to interbreed. In DnD, Humans, Elves, and Orcs are all the SAME species because they can interbreed with fertile children... Back when I designed Fahla for DnD rather than my own fiction it had as an origin the fact that humans were nothing more than the cross of an elf and an orc - like meztico's in Latin America they became their own 'ethnic group,' and the fact of what they were species wise got forgotten in history. Could two competing animals exist in the same niche and environment without wiping each other out? Yes - this is more common in the world than one species having exclusive hold. Competition is common, and often serves to limit the opportunities of both but at the same time keep the weaker members out of both. Could they learn to cooporate? In theory yes. You can teach a cat and a dog to get along, and you can certainly teach different intelligent humans to get along. A pair of intelligent species might very well "sit down" and agree to divide their roles up between each other to the advancement of both - you guys get the be the bankers and we get to be the land holders... or whatever. That doesn't mean they will have to be conflict free, but they can build mutual societies - even ones with high tension. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkdguy Posted October 28, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 Re: Evolution of the races? Here's an article that may provide some inspiration for this topic... Here's another take on that article: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=624&ncid=624&e=3&u=/ap/20041027/ap_on_sc/dwarf_cavewoman Well, we've got dwarves. How about elves? Maybe they came from Atlantis? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlHazred Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 Re: Evolution of the races? There are some sources that have posited these points. In Terry Brooks' Shannara series, the Dwarves, Gnomes, and Trolls all evolved from humans after the Great War (an atomic holocaust; the series takes place ages in the future, when science is forgotten and magic has returned). The Dwarves, for instance, descended from humans who had gone underground, military leaders and scientists and the like. Hence, they were good warriors and managed to hold onto slightly better technology than the rest. Elves are the only race not descended from humans, being the heirs of an even older race that has disappeared; they kept themselves apart from man during the ages of Science. In Michael Scott Rohan's Winter of the World series, the action takes place during the last Ice Age. Dwarves are, in this world, the Neanderthals, an "elder race" (since they are older than Homo sapiens sapiens) who have had plenty of time to develop better technology. They live underground to escape the Ice, which is directed by a malevolent Power that wants to control the whole world. Elves in this setting are humans mutated by a different Power, who claimed he would protect them; the novels imply that they eventually devolved into howler monkeys! Other creatures are either mutated by the Powers, or holdover monsters from a previous age (like dinosaurs and such). Others have plumbed similar territory. From your posts, I'd recommend Rohan's books; I think you'll find he's covering similar territory, and might provide you some inspiration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkdguy Posted October 28, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 Re: Evolution of the races? Considering the links we posted here, we can construct a fantasy world already. Let's say the Homo Florensis and Neanderthal didn't completely die out, but thrived and eventually spread out (albeit not as much as modern humans). Same thing with Australopithecus, which has evolved as well. Now you have four races. Now fast forward it to the Middle Ages. Add in giant lizards and snakes as substitutes for dragons, as well as some low-powered psychic abilities. Voila, a low fantasy campaign! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gewing Posted October 29, 2004 Report Share Posted October 29, 2004 Re: Evolution of the races? Gigantopithecus Blackei could be the giant, troll, or ogre. The ice age period 5' tall baboon could easily be the Evil Troll, orc, or whatnot. Considering the links we posted here' date=' we can construct a fantasy world already. Let's say the Homo Florensis and Neanderthal didn't completely die out, but thrived and eventually spread out (albeit not as much as modern humans). Same thing with Australopithecus, which has evolved as well. Now you have four races. Now fast forward it to the Middle Ages. Add in giant lizards and snakes as substitutes for dragons, as well as some low-powered psychic abilities. Voila, a low fantasy campaign![/quote'] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkdguy Posted October 30, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2004 Re: Evolution of the races? I'd play in this campaign. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkdguy Posted October 31, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 Re: Evolution of the races? Books like Clan of the Cave Bear or Eaters of the Dead (aka The Thirteenth Warrior on film) would be good sources. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gewing Posted November 4, 2004 Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 Re: Evolution of the races? both have ideas for this. In iirc Joel Rosenberg's "keepers of the secret ways" or some such series, in the magical world the "Dwarves" are neanderthals. 5' or so, 200 lbs, strong as an olympic athlete, makes sense to me. Books like Clan of the Cave Bear or Eaters of the Dead (aka The Thirteenth Warrior on film) would be good sources. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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