Susano Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 Greetings all, I recently picked up the RIFTS China World Book, mainly because it was loaded with descriptions of an assortment of Chinese goblins and demons. Having looked it over, I'd love to try and add these guys to THE HERO SYSTEM ASIAN BESTIARY, but I'd like to look at some non-gaming sources in order to do it. Does anyone know of any books (in English) that detail the various demons and goblins of Chinese myth? Especially the inhabitants of the various hells and the like. Obscure sources are fine, as I live near both the University of Maryland (College Park) and the Library of Congress. If you want, I can give a list of the various demons and goblins I am looking at if that will help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Long Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 Re: Requesting help in finding source material Send me a list and I'll see if my contacts in the Mystic World have any information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleepyDrug Posted October 18, 2004 Report Share Posted October 18, 2004 Re: Requesting help in finding source material Greetings all, I recently picked up the RIFTS China World Book, mainly because it was loaded with descriptions of an assortment of Chinese goblins and demons. Having looked it over, I'd love to try and add these guys to THE HERO SYSTEM ASIAN BESTIARY, but I'd like to look at some non-gaming sources in order to do it. Does anyone know of any books (in English) that detail the various demons and goblins of Chinese myth? Especially the inhabitants of the various hells and the like. Obscure sources are fine, as I live near both the University of Maryland (College Park) and the Library of Congress. If you want, I can give a list of the various demons and goblins I am looking at if that will help. Hey, newly in the Baltimore area. Are you looking for actually books of mythology? or just any source? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susano Posted October 19, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 Re: Requesting help in finding source material Hey' date=' newly in the Baltimore area. Are you looking for actually books of mythology? or just any source?[/quote'] I prefer books that I can read through and pick out the 'good" bits. Magazine articles and fine as well. For the record, this is what I found and am interested in researching more on: Cho-o (Crimson Moth) -- this is a giant moth larger than an elephant. Goat Goblin -- humanoid goat that feeds on corpses. Ma T-ou -- horse-headed demon warriors. Monkey-Wolf -- body and legs of a wolf with the head and tail of a monkey. Used as a mount for other demons. Mountain or Monkey Goblin -- mean-spirited monkey-like goblins. One-Horned Mountain Goblin -- humanoid and horned goblin. Ox-headed Demon -- a companion of sorts to the Ma T-ou. Pig-headed Demon Shadow Goblin (Goblin of Darkness or Ghost Goblin) -- small humanoid with black skin and the power to merge with shadows. Shen Mo (Wicked Ghost or Disease Demon) Tall Man Goblin -- tall and thin, kills and eats people. Wu Kung Ching -- the centipede spirit, was originally a man. Yang Ching -- the goat demon. Warrior demons. From Tibet we have the: Yaksha -- demons who can assume human or tiger form. This last one is from Mongolia (and not the RIFTS book), but sounds interesting: Moghur -- apparently some sort of dragon that can kill or weaken foes with its gaze. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 Re: Requesting help in finding source material If you could find a copy of Arthur Waley's abridged translation of Journey to the West by Wu Ch'eng-en (re-titled Monkey) that's a very rich piece of authentic source material. Stone moneys (with iron, bass and crystal body parts thrown in), sea-monsters shape-changed into men, Pig-Men, Bull-Men, all sorts of demons, etc, etc. However, it's not a list of creatures, which might make going through it more difficult for your purposes. On the other hand, it's a good read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Obvious Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 Re: Requesting help in finding source material I understand that the horse headed guys are usually called Ma Mian or Ma Mien (horse face). Actually, if you want to post a list of Chinese names, and can tell me what they mean, I can fairly easily figure out alternative romanizations. This could expand your exploitable source materials...if you know that xian and hsien are the same word, you can use both Taiwanese and mainland Chinese sources to research that creature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susano Posted October 19, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 Re: Requesting help in finding source material The problem is, those are the names that I have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Obvious Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 Re: Requesting help in finding source material Gah! That makes it harder. Because there are so many "dialects" of Chinese, and so many different ways to romanize even one "dialect", there is an element of guesswork in figuring out which was used in any given Chinese word found in an English source. Well, I'll poke around and see what I can do with some of them, anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyGuardian Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 Re: Requesting help in finding source material I did a quick search at amazon (which you probably already tried) but this might be useful: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0394739949/qid=1098292021/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i2_xgl14/102-0245920-3401756?v=glance&s=books&n=507846 Chinese Fairy Tales and Fantasies (Pantheon Fairy Tale and Folk Lore Library (Paper)) I have a few of the other Pantheon books (native american and japanese for sure) and there are usually a few critters and gods and spirits and such in each. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted October 22, 2004 Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 Re: Requesting help in finding source material From Tibet we have the: Yaksha -- demons who can assume human or tiger form. These are basically a tibetanised form of the indo-persian Rakshahshah - deceitful, shapechanging demons who tend to target the the carnally-active. In some cases they are human flesh eaters, in other cases just mischevious/evil. They can mimic the voices of people in some legends and in others mimic their forms or mimic the forms of animals, although their natural form is almost always nasty-looking. The Tibetans seemed to have gotten them as part of a package deal with Buddhism (Subscribe to our exciting new religion and this month only, we'll throw in a bunch of superstitions for free!) cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Obvious Posted October 22, 2004 Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 Re: Requesting help in finding source material Haven't been too successful in this so far, but I haven't had much time to work in it either. I'm 90% certain that the second syllable in "cho-o" (moth, if my educated guess is correct) is more commonly romanized as "e" in Mandarin, and uses this character: 蛾 (let's hope the Hero boards will post it properly). I can't find any similar word for crimson, though. Maybe I'll try looking up Japanese.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susano Posted October 22, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 Re: Requesting help in finding source material Haven't been too successful in this so far, but I haven't had much time to work in it either. I'm 90% certain that the second syllable in "cho-o" (moth, if my educated guess is correct) is more commonly romanized as "e" in Mandarin, and uses this character: 蛾 (let's hope the Hero boards will post it properly). I can't find any similar word for crimson, though. Maybe I'll try looking up Japanese.... I suspect any of the names I gave are Mandarin. Does that help? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susano Posted October 22, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 Re: Requesting help in finding source material These are basically a tibetanised form of the indo-persian Rakshahshah - deceitful, shapechanging demons who tend to target the the carnally-active. In some cases they are human flesh eaters, in other cases just mischevious/evil. They can mimic the voices of people in some legends and in others mimic their forms or mimic the forms of animals, although their natural form is almost always nasty-looking. The Tibetans seemed to have gotten them as part of a package deal with Buddhism (Subscribe to our exciting new religion and this month only, we'll throw in a bunch of superstitions for free!) That helps. I can made some notes in the entry under Rakshasa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toadmaster Posted October 22, 2004 Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 Re: Requesting help in finding source material Have you looked through GURPS China and Japan, I know they are gaming materials but the historical GURPS titles are very well done. Possibly useful books from the biblographies The Chinese fairy book - Martens, Frederick H. JB Lippincott, 1921 NY, NY Famous Chinese short stories - Lin Yutang, John Day Co, 1948 NY, NY Folk legends of Japan, Richard M. Dorson Folk tales of Japan, Keiko Seki Motif Index of folk literature, Stith Thompson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susano Posted October 22, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 Re: Requesting help in finding source material Have you looked through GURPS China and Japan' date=' I know they are gaming materials but the historical GURPS titles are very well done.[/quote'] Yes. I own both, but prefer to go from historical sources than other game sources. Besides, I found some of the material in both to be questionable. Even better, I found some of the original source material for some of the creatures in GURPS China and have noticed some liberties with the adapation to game stats. Possibly useful books from the biblographies The Chinese fairy book - Martens, Frederick H. JB Lippincott, 1921 NY, NY Famous Chinese short stories - Lin Yutang, John Day Co, 1948 NY, NY Folk legends of Japan, Richard M. Dorson Folk tales of Japan, Keiko Seki Motif Index of folk literature, Stith Thompson I'll see if I can find some of those. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toadmaster Posted October 22, 2004 Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 Re: Requesting help in finding source material I understand what you mean about gaming supplements, you always have the concern that even the best research may be tainted by playability and making it a good story. It also seems that with something like folklore you are going to find differances in opinion, even European folklore which is probably beter known to most of us has many inconsistancies. The Basillisk is a great example sometimes described as a lizard like creature other times like a chicken. Good luck, and I'm looking forward to the Asian Beastiary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susano Posted October 22, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2004 Re: Requesting help in finding source material I understand what you mean about gaming supplements, you always have the concern that even the best research may be tainted by playability and making it a good story. It also seems that with something like folklore you are going to find differances in opinion, even European folklore which is probably beter known to most of us has many inconsistancies. The Basillisk is a great example sometimes described as a lizard like creature other times like a chicken. Good luck, and I'm looking forward to the Asian Beastiary. My aim with the HSAB is to make the creatures conform closely to their sources and also be very useful and playable. I want the flavor of the original folklore/myths/legends to come through, especially as many of these creatures people have never even heard of before. It also has allowed me to create some utterly whacked-out power constructs. Oh, and funny you should mention Europe and bestiaries. I will be posting a collection of European bestiary write-ups fairly soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Obvious Posted October 23, 2004 Report Share Posted October 23, 2004 Re: Requesting help in finding source material Cho-o (Crimson Moth) -- still working on it (not Japanese) Goat Goblin -- (I suspect this may be the same guy as the Goat Demon) Ma T-ou -- Also try looking up Ma Tou, Ma T'ou, Ma Mian, Ma Mien, Ma Myan Ox-headed Demon -- Also try Niu Tou, Niu T'ou, Niou Tou, Nyu Tou...I think this guy may have another name as well...I'll get back Pig-headed Demon -- WAG: Zhu Tou, Chu T'ou, Ju Tou Yang Ching -- Yang Jing, Iang Jing I'll try later with some of the other guys. EDIT: A couple of those other guys won't be easy, given that a good number of my dictionaries are from Beijing, and the Communists went a long way trying to stamp out various superstitions in the last 50 years, so they don't often appear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Obvious Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 Re: Requesting help in finding source material Wu Kung Ching -- Also romanized as Wu Gong Jing, U Gong Jing, Wu Gung Jing Shen Mo -- Shen Mwo (this one doesn't vary much from system to system) WAG: Monkey-Wolf -- Hou Lang Goblin is often translated as Yao Guai (or Yao Kuai, Iau Guai, or Yau Gwai). Assuming this is the case, the various goblins should be: Goat Goblin -- Yang Yao Guai, Yang Yao Kuai, Iang Iau Guai, Yang Yau Gwai Mountain Goblin -- Shan Yao Guai, Shan Yao Kuai, Shan Iau Guai, Shan Yau Gwai Monkey Goblin -- Hou Yao Guai, Hou Yao Kuai, Hou Iau Guai, Hou Yau Gwai "One-Horned" (Mountain Goblin is the same as above) -- Yi Jiao, I Chiao, I Jiau, Yi Jyau Ghost Goblin -- Gui Yao Guai, Kuei Yao Kuai, Guei Iau Guai, Gwei Yau Gwai Tall Man Goblin -- Gao Ren Yao Guai, Kao Jen Yao Kuai, Gau Ren Iau Guai, Gau Ren Yau Gwai (these may also be useful if you try looking for them without the Ren/Jen syllable) I've been way out of practice on character recognition, so while I intend on verifying these, it may take a while to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susano Posted October 25, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 Re: Requesting help in finding source material Now to try and find some books in English that mention these things.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Obvious Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 Re: Requesting help in finding source material I'll try to provide some translated webpages, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susano Posted October 25, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 Re: Requesting help in finding source material You da man! Ill need to add you to the "thank you" credits. Please email me with your (real) name and the like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Obvious Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 Re: Requesting help in finding source material Maybe you should wait until you see if I've been of any use. I may know the language a little, but I don't know jack about their monsters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toadmaster Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 Re: Requesting help in finding source material Not to add to your work load but are you considering the mythology of Russia / USSR many people forget about Russian mythology since it is split between Europe and Asia, they have some interesting mythological critters that are rarely mentioned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susano Posted October 25, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 Re: Requesting help in finding source material When Steve and I set this product up, Russia/the Soviet Union and the Middle East were not included in the area to be covered. Of course, one could do a whole book in the mythical creatures of the Soviet Union, another on the Middle East, another on Africa, and so on. Heck, look at the "HERE THE BE DRAGONS" thread in the fantasy section for a listing of European creatures -- and that only scratches the surface! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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