Are there ever too many points?

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: Are there ever too many points?

 

Powers that do not normally cost endurance like Armor, DR, Power Defense, etc.

 

There is an 80 active point cap in the game though.

 

My rule there would be, if the power is absolutely core to the concept - again, something like a Werewolf with Damage Reduction - I might allow *one* such Power in an EC. Any EC with more than one, unless the Powers in question are modified to Cost END - and even then, if the EC in question was full of such Powers - I would pretty much automaticaly veto.

 

I'm curious... you're doing a pretty high-point game as I recall... why put a cap of 80 AP?

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Are there ever too many points?

 

This game is sans hard point ceilings, right??

 

Why the *hell* would someone use dubious ECs in such a game??

 

Uhm... point ceilings are how many points they have to spend total, right?

 

In that case, there's _always_ the option of More Power for your points.

 

 

In any event, I'm sure nexus will throw out dubious character constructs first (or at least get them to be rebuilt).

[Metaphysician]

Re: Are there ever too many points?

 

Sorry, I just checked; there is, in fact, a point cap ( 600 + Disads ).

 

OTOH, 80 AP seems rather low. Is that for average, with the option of going over with GM approval ( like, say, a brick with high STR and defense, but comparatively limited CV and flexibility )??

[nexus]

Re: Are there ever too many points?

 

My rule there would be, if the power is absolutely core to the concept - again, something like a Werewolf with Damage Reduction - I might allow *one* such Power in an EC. Any EC with more than one, unless the Powers in question are modified to Cost END - and even then, if the EC in question was full of such Powers - I would pretty much automaticaly veto.

 

I'm curious... you're doing a pretty high-point game as I recall... why put a cap of 80 AP?

 

No great and profound reason, it just felt about right for what I was looking for. After looking threw the various source books it seemed like a level that would be about right for a non cosmic Iron Age-esque (New word!) style game.

 

OTOH, 80 AP seems rather low. Is that for average, with the option of going over with GM approval ( like, say, a brick with high STR and defense, but comparatively limited CV and flexibility )??

 

Those are the maximums for the campaign. Hard caps until experience starts being spent.

[Pegasus]

Re: Are there ever too many points?

 

Well, I tried upgrading a few of my characters to 750 points, and I just couldn't do it without suffering from unnecessary bloat. In fact, I don't think I've ever made a character that could be done for that many points. Well, I do have this one brick character who could if I maxed him out, but he's wrong for Nexus' campaign anyway, and that's the challenge I was trying to meet. I actually thought 750 would be good for this duplicator I've always wanted to make, but the 80 point cap kills that, too. (750 with an 80 pnt cap is very odd. My archer could fit the cap, but maxes out around 600.)

 

I should stress that I could make a character for that many points, but not one that I'd want to play. (Villains no problem.) Not yet, anyway. I'm still thinking on it...

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Are there ever too many points?

 

Well, I tried upgrading a few of my characters to 750 points, and I just couldn't do it without suffering from unnecessary bloat. In fact, I don't think I've ever made a character that could be done for that many points. Well, I do have this one brick character who could if I maxed him out, but he's wrong for Nexus' campaign anyway, and that's the challenge I was trying to meet. I actually thought 750 would be good for this duplicator I've always wanted to make, but the 80 point cap kills that, too. (750 with an 80 pnt cap is very odd. My archer could fit the cap, but maxes out around 600.)

 

I should stress that I could make a character for that many points, but not one that I'd want to play. (Villains no problem.) Not yet, anyway. I'm still thinking on it...

 

It helps if you "let it all hang out". I got to 750 by essentially tacking on "Brick" to 'Shapeshifter-with-all-the-tricks-and-then-some' and by tacking "Brick" to 'Telekinetic-with-all-the-tricks'.

 

Start with a high end concept. (I got the shapeshifter by thinking 'realistic martian manhunter... realistic martian manhunter...').

 

Then add something to it.

 

Worked for me. (Twice! )

[Warp9]

Re: Are there ever too many points?

 

750 with an 80 pnt cap is very odd.

I agree.

 

Of course, I've never liked hard point caps anyway.

[Pegasus]

Re: Are there ever too many points?

 

It helps if you "let it all hang out". I got to 750 by essentially tacking on "Brick" to 'Shapeshifter-with-all-the-tricks-and-then-some' and by tacking "Brick" to 'Telekinetic-with-all-the-tricks'.

 

Start with a high end concept. (I got the shapeshifter by thinking 'realistic martian manhunter... realistic martian manhunter...').

 

Then add something to it.

 

Worked for me. (Twice! )

 

I guess that's the problem for me. I really like J'onn, but I don't want to play him. Nor Superman, Green Lantern, Captain Atom, the Silver Surfer, etc. My characters are more specific, more flawed than that. And while 350 is still a bit limiting to a lot of my concepts, 750 is just too much. 500 is about right, depending upon the game and the character.

[Pegasus]

Re: Are there ever too many points?

 

I agree.

 

Of course, I've never liked hard point caps anyway.

 

I very much agree with you there. Hard caps kill too many perfectly valid concepts.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Are there ever too many points?

 

I guess that's the problem for me. I really like J'onn' date=' but I don't want to play him. Nor Superman, Green Lantern, Captain Atom, the Silver Surfer, etc. My characters are more specific, more flawed than that. And while 350 is still a bit limiting to a lot of my concepts, 750 is just too much. 500 is about right, depending upon the game and the character.[/quote']

 

The person isn't their powers.

 

Remember, (some of?) the Seeded have just been empowered (if I understand the setting correctly), so you can have someone wake up _tomorrow_ with the full power set of SA Superman (okay, _part_ of the powerset... sheesh).

 

And wonder what the hell they do now.

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Are there ever too many points?

 

I wonder about the idea of "valid concept" with "power levels". I mean, what if a player's concept is the planet moving Superman? That's a valid concept, certainly a nightmarish one to GM, but still valid (as far as being that's what all Kryptonians can do.)

 

Then again, I've seen absolutely lousy concepts at 250.

[Mutant for Hire]

Re: Are there ever too many points?

 

Oh yes. If you ever feel the need to burn more points, don't forget that bases and vehicles are excellent ways to soak up more points. Remember that Batman may well have twice the point cost of Superman once you factor in the number of bases and gadgets and the external gadget pool that he has access to.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Are there ever too many points?

 

Another sink for points: background, perks, and talents.

 

Have 100 points and don't know what to do with it?? Start by grabbing a dozen knowledge skills, then figure out about 20 points of contacts. Bang, half the points are used up, and you haven't significantly altered your concept.

[Pegasus]

Re: Are there ever too many points?

 

Oh yes. If you ever feel the need to burn more points' date=' don't forget that bases and vehicles are excellent ways to soak up more points. Remember that Batman may well have twice the point cost of Superman once you factor in the number of bases and gadgets and the external gadget pool that he has access to.[/quote']

 

Not if you buy Superman's Fortress of Solitude, and his rarely seen though expensive vehicles, robots and gadgets. I'm just saying.

 

 

I think you make a good point, but there are many heroes and concepts that such expenditures would not really work. Spidey with HQ? Maybe in the Spider-Friends toons, but not usually.

[Pegasus]

Re: Are there ever too many points?

 

I wonder about the idea of "valid concept" with "power levels". I mean' date=' what if a player's concept is the planet moving Superman? That's a valid concept, certainly a nightmarish one to GM, but still valid (as far as being that's what all Kryptonians can do.)[/quote']

 

It's a perfectly valid concept, I admit. But you can't build him with 80 point caps. That's what I was saying. You also can't do Indestructible Guy, for example. And there are a lot of energy manipulation powers that, with advantages and reduced END are going to stretch above 80 points. The brick with a 60 STR is weak for a 750 point character, but if he wants 1/2 END that's the max he can have. Duplication and multiform are out or severely limited. Etc.

 

Then again, I've seen absolutely lousy concepts at 250.

 

Who hasn't? There's a number of threads devoted to the most memorable awful concepts.

[Pegasus]

Re: Are there ever too many points?

 

The person isn't their powers.

 

Remember, (some of?) the Seeded have just been empowered (if I understand the setting correctly), so you can have someone wake up _tomorrow_ with the full power set of SA Superman (okay, _part_ of the powerset... sheesh).

 

And wonder what the hell they do now.

 

I understand what you're saying. What I'm saying is that at 750-1000 points the characters tend to look like copies, especially with an 80 point cap that guarantees they have to buy numerous powers rather than get really good with a few. The "cosmic archetype" has flight, str, speed, invulnerablity, energy blast, maybe another type of energy manipulation. Sprinkle with life support and enhanced senses and voila! Cosmic hero. Sure, the personality should differentiate the characters, but I wonder how satisfied a player would be with just another flying-blasting-brick? Even in the comics they step on each other's toes.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Are there ever too many points?

 

You could always go for 80 Point VPP, Cosmic, Limitation: SFX ( 176 points if its a fairly broad SFX worth -1/4 ).

[Pegasus]

Re: Are there ever too many points?

 

You could always go for 80 Point VPP' date=' Cosmic, Limitation: SFX ( 176 points if its a fairly broad SFX worth -1/4 ).[/quote']

 

Would that be legal? I guess it depends upon the interpretation of what an 80 point cap really means. Of course, I would love to submit something like this in person just to watch the GM's spit take?

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Are there ever too many points?

 

I understand what you're saying. What I'm saying is that at 750-1000 points the characters tend to look like copies' date=' especially with an 80 point cap that guarantees they have to buy numerous powers rather than get really good with a few. The "cosmic archetype" has flight, str, speed, invulnerablity, energy blast, maybe another type of energy manipulation. Sprinkle with life support and enhanced senses and voila! Cosmic hero. Sure, the personality should differentiate the characters, but I wonder how satisfied a player would be with just another flying-blasting-brick? Even in the comics they step on each other's toes.[/quote']

 

That's not something I noticed... my two submissions (I felt really enthused, ok?) were very different. (Okay, both could fly, and both were invulnerable... but interesting variations showed up.)

 

Actually, if you want Duplication, the "Cannon-Fodder-Duplicate" model is pretty good. (Essentially, the main PC makes them, and ONLY the main PC. The copies are not as good as him)

 

Take a lot of 100pt Duplicates. (or maybe a little more powerful).

 

And take a lot of Duplication SFX powers.

 

Oh, and the ability to "Castle" with any Duplicate. That's nifty.

 

Actually, this is a cool idea. Scusey (puts on hero designer hat)

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Are there ever too many points?

 

I don't necessarily think there's such a thing as too many points, per se, but I think there is such a thing as too many dice.

 

If you're rolling so many dice that the rest of the table gets bored while waiting for your tally ... it's too many dice. Note that this level of dice-overkill arrives sooner for some players than others.

 

There are days I wonder how I ever made it in a 250 point game with an 18d6 attack cap.

[Pegasus]

Re: Are there ever too many points?

 

That's not something I noticed... my two submissions (I felt really enthused, ok?) were very different. (Okay, both could fly, and both were invulnerable... but interesting variations showed up.)

Interested in posting them? I'd like to see your variations. Maybe it will trigger one for me

 

Actually, if you want Duplication, the "Cannon-Fodder-Duplicate" model is pretty good. (Essentially, the main PC makes them, and ONLY the main PC. The copies are not as good as him)

 

Take a lot of 100pt Duplicates. (or maybe a little more powerful).

 

And take a lot of Duplication SFX powers.

 

Oh, and the ability to "Castle" with any Duplicate. That's nifty.

 

Actually, this is a cool idea. Scusey (puts on hero designer hat)

 

Go for it The Fodder Dupe is what I was trying to avoid. I wanted dupes that were actual duplicates of the main character, but especially after I added the 0 phase recombo adder and multiple dupes, the maximum points for any dupe was around 350. That's nowhere near the prime duplicate.

 

btw, what do you mean by "Castling" with your dupes? I have an idea, but not sure...

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Are there ever too many points?

 

Interested in posting them? I'd like to see your variations. Maybe it will trigger one for me

 

 

 

Go for it The Fodder Dupe is what I was trying to avoid. I wanted dupes that were actual duplicates of the main character, but especially after I added the 0 phase recombo adder and multiple dupes, the maximum points for any dupe was around 350. That's nowhere near the prime duplicate.

 

btw, what do you mean by "Castling" with your dupes? I have an idea, but not sure...

 

Castling = Teleport that swaps positions.

 

here's a submission. (not that she got in or anything)

 

68 Multipower: Telekinetic Powers, Drained as Part of Elemental Control

u6 Bullet Barrage: 3d6+1 Ranged Killing Attack, Autofire 5 (14)

u6 Burrow: 14" Tunneling through 14 DEF, Can Fill In (8)

u6 Choke: 8d6 Energy Blast, No Normal Defense (No Need to Breathe) (8)

u6 Dissipate: 20d6 Dispel vs Any One "Cloud" Area Effect Power (7)

u6 Lock in Place: 6d6 Entangle, Entangle and Character Both Take Damage (7)

u6 "Hand" Over Your Eyes: 8d6 Flash vs Sight, NND (Force Field) (8)

u6 Intercept: Full Missile Deflection, Usable at Range, plus Missile Reflection

u6 Rebuild: 3d6-1 Major Transform: Anything to Anything (+1) (8)

u6 Restoration: 8d6 Healing Aid (8)

u4 Telekinetic Barrier: 16/16 Force Wall, Does not "Stack" with Force Bubble (8)

u7 Telekinetic Force: STR 50 Telekinesis, Fine Manipulation (8)

u6 Telekinetic Hammer: 5d6+1 Ranged Killing Attack (8)

u5 Telekinetic Tendrils: +20 STR, plus 4" Stretching, Fully Invisible, Fully Indirect, no damage, plus Extra Limbs: Telekinetic Tendrils, Fully Invisible (7)

u7 Widebeam: STR 20 Telekinesis, Selective Area Effect: 12" Radius (8)

u6 Your Heart is in my "Hands"...: 4d6 Energy Blast, No Normal Defense (Force Field), Does Body, Continuous (8)

 

40 Godly Telekinesis: Elemental Control

a40 Telekinetic Flight: 40" Flight (8)

b40 Telekinetic Force Bubble: 20/20 Force Field, 0 Endurance Cost, Persistent

19 Minimum of Telekinetic Shielding: 5/5 Armour, Hardened

40 Stay in Place: 20" Knockback Resistance

45 Telekinetic Preservation: Full Life Support

10 TK Sense:

15 Willpower: 20 points of Mental Defense

===

406

 

50 STR 60

60 DEX 30

60 CON 40

20 BOD 20

3 INT 13

26 EGO 23

40 PRE 50

5 COM 20

3 PD 15

7 ED 15

20 SPD 6

0 REC 20

0 END 80

0 STN 70

===

294

 

9 Ambidexterity

=

9

 

3 Acting 13-

3 Climbing 15-

3 Computer Programming 12-

3 Concealment 12-

3 Conversation 19-

3 Deduction 12-

3 Paramedic 12-

3 Persuasion 19-

3 Shadowing 12-

3 Stealth 15-

10 +2 with Ranged Combat

==

40

 

10 Distinctive Features: Albino, Chill to the touch

10 Mystery Hunted (As Powerful) 8-

5 Physical Limitation: Abnormally Low Body Temperature

10 Physical Limitation: Albino

15 Physical Limitation: Superhuman Physiology requires Unusual Medical Care

15 Psychological Limitation: Politically Liberal

10 Psychological Limitation: Quiet and Withdrawn

20 Psychological Limitation: Young

5 Social Limitation: Minor

15 Social Limitation: Secret Identity - Anna Molin

10 Susceptability: 1d6 from Sudden Harsh Bright Light

10 Vulnerability: x1.5 Effect from Light Based Attacks

15 Vulnerability: x2 Stun and c1.5 Body from Light Based Attacks

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Are there ever too many points?

 

Incidently, anyone interested in 750 play,

 

"After the Aliens: Awakening"

 

is starting up on Hero Central.

 

(Rather than bitch about how I didn't get in, I'm being constructive and giving the dozen other people who didn't get in a shot a different 750 game. )

[OddHat]

Re: Are there ever too many points?

 

Incidently, anyone interested in 750 play,

 

"After the Aliens: Awakening"

 

is starting up on Hero Central.

 

(Rather than bitch about how I didn't get in, I'm being constructive and giving the dozen other people who didn't get in a shot a different 750 game. )

 

Also incidently, anyone inerested in 750 point mystic characters is welcome to check out the latest entries in The New Circle. Now with bases, Atlantean flying saucers, and Jade Dragons!

 

Everyone likes Atlantean flying saucers.