Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

[Yesman]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

On the other side of the coin though as you mentioned is how does a GM convey this (homebrew) information without putting on a tweed jacket and pulling out the blackboard.

 

Skills are your best friend for this. If there's some law, civility, or whatever that you need to make sure the party understands then stress it to the character with the most appropriate skills (and or background). Let them pass it on to the rest however they see fit. Especially for History, Law, High Society, Politics. I've found it helpful to keep a few handouts with histories, maps etc. on them to give to players whose character's have the right skills.

 

gets the info out there, and rewards players for having well rounded skills. double good.

 

I tend to run games where formalized knowlege of pretty much any kind is jealously guarded though... might be a factor on the success I've had with this approach. eh.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

Yeah' date=' because what the GM wants to do in a game is totally secondary to what the players and their uber-kewl bow-to-no-man characters want.[/quote']

 

Dude, the GM is one of the players. And the game should be what the players want it to be. There needs to be a consensus, or at least a willingness to alternate games so that everyobody gets to play what they would prefer at least part of the time. Sometimes consensus or compromise isn't possible, in which case the differing parties should part company. There's no harm in that.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

Seen mostly in computer games' date=' but not unheard of in table-top, [b']No more monolithic evil[/b]. Just because the all NPCs hate the players, doesn't mean they will fight side by side to defeat the PCs.

 

As a rule of thumb, when the PCs make an enemy of someone (or vice versa), I try to think of an as-yet-unmet third party that wants to kill both groups. Because, realistically, someone the PCs come into conflict with is likely to already have enemies.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

I feel a certain degree of scripting is necessary. After all, the GM has to create bad guys who want to do something in opposition to the players' wishes. There's story there. The GM is responsible for creating an entertaining scenario that fairly challenges the players. If he doesn't create some amount of story, there is no conflict other than random encounter charts.

I thing the issue is the amount of "scripting." Some groups are comfortable with different levels. To perhaps over-generalize, Gamists want less, Role-Players want more. Our group is pretty satisfied with a fairly high amount of what Terry Pratchett calls "narrative causality". That is, things happen in a novel because that's the way things happen in a story, not because that's how they happen in real life. To paraphrase another writer (Shaw or Coward, I could find a cite) "God writes lousy theater."

The trick to balancing such an approach is to script lightly, and entirely based on previous character actions. If the characters angered Lord Poo-bah, then the next adventure could very well be "Lord Poo-Bah's Revenge." If Lord Poo-Bah is merely a stepping stone on the way to finding the Great Mystery of the Demon Caves of Gluglug, then arranging a situation in which they will almost certainly be captured by Lord Poo-bah and get a chance to escape into said caves is not unreasonable.

Notice I said "Almost certainly". I would never create an absolute scenario. I am perfectly willing to let player ingenuity trump me for a week before I find another way to get them into the caves. Assuming that's where their goals and fulfillment lie.

 

Keith "Dramatist" Curtis

[llewin]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

Ok firstly I just have to say that there was some really great posting on this particular thread!

 

I am new to Hero as a gaming system, fairly experienced with roleplaying in general though but i really prefer the fantasy genre and suedo or near-accurate historical fantasy at that lol...

 

I am glad that there have been a number of posts making the point that the GM is a player as well and his or her desires to have fun should be taken in to account as well!

 

I've been blessed with a pretty good group of gamers, some are new to the roleplay scene some have gamed a long time but all of them are great about roleplaying rather than roll-playing, playing up their characters and trying their darndest to 'do what the character would do' even it did mean putting them at high risk.

 

Our most current campaign was in the Wheel of Time d20 setting (with some extensive alteration by myself and a co-GM) And THAT is why i'm now strongly considering building Wheel of Time in the Hero system.

 

I read a review by Eosin over on his webpage at mabinogin.com and was intreagued and it turned out a player of mine is a big fan of the system so i'm reading through his 5th edition book now

 

Glad to find a community!

 

~llewin

[UltraRob]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

Hey llewin, welcome aboard!

 

This is one of the most thoughtfull message boards I have ever seen, and it's populated by an honestly good group of people. Don't be afraid to ask questions, but before you do try to do a "search" on the topic first. People here have covered more topics than you'd believe, and a lot of things keep coming up again and again. And, the amount of useful materials you'll find here is staggering too.

 

Enjoy!

Rob

[llewin]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

thanks for the greets, Rob

 

I look forward to getting to know the posters well as the weeks go by.

 

~llewin

[Eosin]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

Hah!

 

Proof that my reviews work!!! Now to institute my plans for global domination.

 

 

PS - if you go to the place called NGD - put on some flame retardant clothing and get ready to brawl. The rest of the forum is great but that place is an insest filled refuge for the terminally argumenitive.

 

Some of that is teh, teh funny but some ain't - you figure out which

[Sword-dancer]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

I feel a certain degree of scripting is necessary.

No I don`t think so.

 

To perhaps over-generalize, Gamists want less, Role-Players want more.

What did you mean with Roleplayers? Narrativists, Simulationists, why did yod you exclude Gamists?

 

That is, things happen in a novel because that's the way things happen in a story, not because that's how they happen in real life.

 

To Quote Steve Long Games are Games and not Books.

 

http://www.darkshire.net/~jhkim/rpg/theory/genre/simulation1.html

 

 

The trick to balancing such an approach is to script lightly

No I didn`t think so again.

IMHO it is the following what I try to do

1 Plan an adventure as what the parties will do or not, without the PCs interfere, or at the Knowledge of the NPCs of the PCs Actions and possibilities.

2 to respond accordingly to the PCs re/actions based on the circumstances.

3 to react accordingly to the PCs own initiative, which means that the PCs go out on their own.

 

 

In the end it`s well likely that we`ve different interpretations of definitions, than a real difference in Attitude(?).

 

Excuse my bad English

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

What did you mean with Roleplayers? Narrativists' date=' Simulationists, why did yod you exclude Gamists?[/quote']

 

Ye, gods, not this nonsense again. That ridiculous "threefold" taxonomy just makes my skin crawl (even more so than calling the game "Fred").

[spaceprincessecho]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

The perks of the character are automatically ingrained in the Backrground of the character/setting.

 

What you're saying is that a well-written background should allow you to gain benefits that other characters would have to pay points for?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

What you're saying is that a well-written background should allow you to gain benefits that other characters would have to pay points for?

 

Commence Background: The son of the God of the Skies and the Goddess of the Seas, Glodwyn has many abilities far beyond those of mortal men.

 

I wonder how much I can squeeze out of THAT background... I could possibly live with this approach if you also got 0 point disadvantages from your background commensurate with the 0 point perks and other abilities. [Glodwyn has a number of religions hunting him as they are opposed to Sky and Earth religions, etc.]

[Sword-dancer]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

What you're saying is that a well-written background should allow you to gain benefits that other characters would have to pay points for?

No what I wanted to say is, that some dis/advantages, status duties etc are automatucally gained if the character had a special package like these in this setting.

[Houston GM]

Scripting encounters

 

Plan an adventure as what the parties will do or not, without the PCs interfere, or at the Knowledge of the NPCs of the PCs Actions and possibilities.

This is a matter of differing definitions, but I would claim that most of this planning is scripted.

 

Sword-dancer, re-read the encounter with "The 'Friendly' Ogres" again. That whole encounter was heavily scripted. The group encounterd the ogres in a narrow mountain pass, where they couldn't easily go around. They snuck up on the ogres, but the mule was noisy. They could have attacked the ogres, but it was obvious that the ogres were much tougher than them. By looking at the ogres' equipment, the elven mercenary could tell that the ogres were mercenaries (and unlikely to make unprovoked attacks).

 

Did the ogre slang seem clever? It was scripted in advance. I thought up 20 lines of potential dialogue and ended up using about 12 of those lines.

 

I've GMed for this group for 3 years. They're smart, but I can usually make some educated guesses about what they'll do.

 

Did the encounter go exactly as I planned? Of course not. The players said and did some things that I didn't predict, but I am comfortable with winging it. Their actions did have some minor consequences, but it was easy to adapt them into the larger plot.

 

The encounter seemed spontaneous because I scripted it. I can't make up a dozen lines of appropriate ogre slang on the spur of the moment. If the group had met humans, I would have made fewer preparations (since being human is easier for me to roleplay).

[keithcurtis]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

No I don`t think so.

 

 

What did you mean with Roleplayers? Narrativists, Simulationists, why did yod you exclude Gamists?

As I said, I was oversimplifying. I just grabbed some handy labels

To Quote Steve Long Games are Games and not Books.

 

http://www.darkshire.net/~jhkim/rpg/theory/genre/simulation1.html

Totally agree. Authors have absolute control over events and characters. I wouldn't dream of imposing a situation like that upon my players. What would be the point?

IMHO it is the following what I try to do

1 Plan an adventure as what the parties will do or not, without the PCs interfere, or at the Knowledge of the NPCs of the PCs Actions and possibilities.

2 to respond accordingly to the PCs re/actions based on the circumstances.

3 to react accordingly to the PCs own initiative, which means that the PCs go out on their own.

This is pretty close to what I do as well, but with a different empahsis. I not only try to give the bad guys motives and plans, but ones that are dramatically interesting. I have played games that are pretty much a tactical excersize and they are fun, but a different kind of fun. I like games with themes, symbolism, and empahsis on character development. These goals can be achieved in a purely game-like fashion, but I feel they evolve more organically when the emphasis is on drama.

 

In the end it`s well likely that we`ve different interpretations of definitions, than a real difference in Attitude(?).

Quite probably true. I think if you attended one of my games, the different approaches we have been discussing would not be so terribly evident. And vice versa. In the end, my players and I are happy and having fun.

Excuse my bad English

What is your native language?

 

Keith "Speaks English, has one point of French and is saving xp for Mandarin" Curtis

[keithcurtis]

Re: Scripting encounters

 

Thanks, Houston GM. That's the kind of thing I meant when I said that some scripting was necessary.

 

Keith "explicationally disadvantaged" Curtis

[Sword-dancer]

Re: Scripting encounters

 

This is a matter of differing definitions, but I would claim that most of this planning is scripted.

 

Sword-dancer, re-read the encounter with "The 'Friendly' Ogres" again. That whole encounter was heavily scripted.

 

What would you`d done If the PCs had scouted their path?

Had they`d a fair chance to detect the ogres?

If they`d them detected and hide themselves successfully, silenced the mule, would the ogres had found them automatically?

Were the actions, reactions and the outcome of the encounter defined beforehand?

 

I try to plan an adventure beforehand on the knowledge and personality of the NPCs, this include the motivations against the PCs and the ressources they`d available.

OTOH i consider in my planning the likliest actions of PCs/Players, sometimes i`m are right.

Know I don`t even know what the PCs even will do after the aftermath, most likely they will went to a neighbouring kingdom but I don`t even know which route they would take.

The end of this chapter the finishing Encounter come from an very good spot check from one, with which I reacted to give them a trail that led in the end to the adventure starter, it was not a trail from the adventure starter, and it wasn`t planned, and they reacted verydifferent than expected to the encountering.

[Sword-dancer]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

In the end, my players and I are happy and having fun.

What is your native language?

 

 

And that is what counts in the End.

 

German, and I think i`d negative Points in French.

[Lezentauw]

Re: Scripting encounters

 

What would you`d done If the PCs had scouted their path?

Had they`d a fair chance to detect the ogres?

If they`d them detected and hide themselves successfully, silenced the mule, would the ogres had found them automatically?

Were the actions, reactions and the outcome of the encounter defined beforehand?

 

I try to plan an adventure beforehand on the knowledge and personality of the NPCs, this include the motivations against the PCs and the ressources they`d available.

OTOH i consider in my planning the likliest actions of PCs/Players, sometimes i`m are right.

Know I don`t even know what the PCs even will do after the aftermath, most likely they will went to a neighbouring kingdom but I don`t even know which route they would take.

The end of this chapter the finishing Encounter come from an very good spot check from one, with which I reacted to give them a trail that led in the end to the adventure starter, it was not a trail from the adventure starter, and it wasn`t planned, and they reacted verydifferent than expected to the encountering.

 

I am not sure if you are use the same definition of scripting as Keith Curtis or HoutonGm is. I think that you are use the definition that is closer to cut screens on video games. Where you just sit back and watch what is being shown to you. I tend to think that every GM scripts to some extent or another. Unless of course you are spending a thousand hours to detail every spec of your world for each gaming night, just so your characters can do what they want when they want....

 

These guys are talking about writing up a set of events that will in all likelyhood take place. Just like you, they know their players, and they can plan for the most plausable actions of their players. In the case of Houston's he put his players into an situation that they did not have many choices. That helped him fulfull the story as he intended. I am sure that he did not have the dialogue all laid out, he just had 20 or so prepared lines ready. As things played out, so did he.

 

I am not sure why you are so against scripting, but I loved Houston's "Friendly Ogre" write-up. I think it would of been even more enjoyable role-playing though it!

 

For scripting to work the players need to be able to trust the GM. They also need to have the understanding that there may be times that the only victory that they will achieve, will be to live another day to strike back. 'Defeat' sometimes can be very profitable for a campaigns success. Then your character would have even more reasons to take a certain person down.

 

As an example, that may require some scripting. Perhaps your character needed to lose just so you looked into who that person was working for. If you just killed him, you would of never found that out. Then the arch-villian gets to complete his plans without you having a chance to stop him.

[Sword-dancer]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

You`re right I useScripting in definition of the Scriptbook of a movie or a theatre whre the actors´ve to follow the written script, as it is written.

 

In the case of Houston's he put his players into an situation that they did not have many choices.

The marking was mine.

The difference to scripting is, that they`d choices.

[Houston GM]

Scripting the ogres.

 

Regarding the ogres...

 

 

What would you`d done If the PCs had scouted their path? Had they`d a fair chance to detect the ogres?

They did scout the path, and they did detect the ogres.

 

1) A hawk told the beast mage that there were "a few people" ahead.

 

2) They saw the smoke from the ogres' fire.

 

3) The snuck up (undetected) and got a glimpse of the ogres.

 

 

If they`d them detected and hide themselves successfully, silenced the mule, would the ogres had found them automatically?

They didn't think about silencing the mule. Even if they had, it would have been difficult to succeed. (This mule has a PsychLim: uncooperative, strong, very common.)

 

Even if they did keep the mule from braying, it's still too obvious & noisy to sneak past a group of ogres in a narrow mountain pass.

 

And the ogres didn't quite find them. They heard the mule and realized that someone was back there. The players decided to introduce themselves before the ogres wandered back to find out who was around.

 

 

Were the actions, reactions and the outcome of the encounter defined beforehand?

Actions defined beforehand:

 

The mule would make noise at the least convenient moment.

 

The ogres wouldn't attack people unless they were provoked.

 

Only one of the ogres could speak the same language as the PCs.

 

The ogres would answer questions (and ask a few).

 

The ogres would let the players have things that the ogres didn't want.

 

One of the ogres would mimic the beast-mage's spellcasting. The other ogres would find this very funny.

 

The ogres would ask the players to help hunt for food.

 

The ogres would keep watch at night.

 

Everything else was based on what the players did.

 

 

The players could have avoided the encounter, but it was highly unlikely based on the information that they had when the encounter started.

[Whitewings]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

Communication and travel are concepts that have been around since the beginning of civilization. It doesn't take a scientist to realize that it's more convenient to talk to someone directly than to write a message and send a courier who will take 2 weeks to reach his destination.

 

Similarly, it's not too difficult to imagine that magic might be able to find a faster and more comfortable solution to travel than getting footsore, saddlesore, or seasick.

In a WoT game I was in on-line, one of my characters was working on learning how to fly; she planned to go into business as a long-distance courier because she already enjoyed travelling. She was Stilled before she could master the technique, owing to the Goddess of Daes Dae'mar being a twit who loved to tell me I was "doing bad things" without saynig what they actually were - but that's a separate rant.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

You`re right I useScripting in definition of the Scriptbook of a movie or a theatre whre the actors´ve to follow the written script, as it is written.

 

 

The marking was mine.

The difference to scripting is, that they`d choices.

 

Well, to be fair, you introduced the word "scripting" to the conversation. You'll notice I put the words in quotes at least once to indicate that the term was being used (by myself) very loosely.

 

And to be clear, I always give my players choices. And I never dictate an outcome.

 

The trick is to limit the choices in such a way that seems A) invisible and natural to the players, and seems logical to the story so far and C) addresses the game elements you have detailed the best. If someone pulls something entirely out of left field, I can GM it, but I can't guarantee it will be as entertaining as something I had already spent hours thinking about.

I set up situations so that the outcomes are limited (success or failure and contingencies for each). But again, I can deal with the totally unexpected.

In the example of the "You are supposed to be captured" scenario. I wouldn't force it on them if they managed to win the encounter, but I would defintely set up the encounter as to be incredibly difficult to win. My players trust me not to kill them out of hand, or to screw them over.

 

Keith "And that's probably the last I'm going to say on this subject" Curtis

[llewin]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

Gosh i am really surprised this conversation has gone on as long as it has....

 

i can't imagine running a roleplay campaign without ANY scripting... whats the friggin point, there wouldnt be anything to do!

 

A great GM/DM/Storyteller/WHATEVER can effectively lead his party by the nose without them even realizing it. Part of it is knowing your players... Part of it is knowing the world you are playing in well enough to make the things you *want* to happen fit the way things *actually* could happen...

 

Just as an example... in a wheel of time d20 game i was gming for a while (we are on hiatus unfortunately) some characters had to spend 4 days climbing/hiking down out of the mountains of mist, in perpetual cloud cover and on-again/off-again rain showers... they found random wild animal tracks..enough food to live off of (they had almost no supplies at the time) but no human settlements or signs of civilization apart from an occaisional rock that seemed 'a little too squarish' to be naturally formed...

 

So as the session wore on, just as the party was getting a *little bit* tired of the trudging hike in to civilization...."suddenly' a storm broke out... clouds rolled in, the sky turned black in about 15 minutes, and it began to pour on them...

 

the party ran in every direction trying to find some cover and found a cave!

hoorah! a cave, we wont get soaked! ...

 

only, once they got inside there were 4 bear cubs in the cave...

and...something roared at the entrance...oh dear....

 

lol

it was great and it was the first in a series of events that developed a somewhat strong dislike for the word 'suddenly' when used in our campaign...inevitably it meant something the characters didnt expect had happened...

 

the characters loved it..hit themselves in the head for not even checking for animal tracks and narrowly survived the attack of an enormous cavebear... they won...and they left. luckily.

 

if they hadnt we had the bear's 'mate' ready to arrive a few minutes after they dispatched the first...also based on the amount of party-damage...

 

anyway. it was a 'scripted' encounter. the storm was a plot-hook which was ENTIRELY plausable in the universe and current location, and it *worked*

 

the players got led exactly where i wanted them and didnt feel led at all.

 

~llewin

[Sword-dancer]

Re: Things I'd like to see more of in fantasy gaming

 

Well, to be fair, you introduced the word "scripting" to the conversation. You'll notice I put the words in quotes at least once to indicate that the term was being used (by myself) very loosely.

 

The marking was meant at the Quote iused, i missinterpreted because

i took you to literally and used my definition of the meaning of the word.