Aid in a VPP and Charges

[SSJ Archon]

I had a player use Aid in his cosmic VPP with 1 charge, and he switched in between all of his attributes. Because of the the 1 charge LIMITATION he was getting to keep the boosts on each of them. In effect, he was getting a boost to all of his stats for no cost because then he would use the VPP for other things. I couldn't find anything in the rules about it at the time. I'd like to know what you all think about charges in cosmic vpps.

[jackalope]

Re: Aid in a VPP and Charges

 

I had a player use Aid in his cosmic VPP with 1 charge' date=' and he switched in between all of his attributes. Because of the the 1 charge LIMITATION he was getting to keep the boosts on each of them. In effect, he was getting a boost to all of his stats for no cost because then he would use the VPP for other things. I couldn't find anything in the rules about it at the time. I'd like to know what you all think about charges in cosmic vpps.[/quote']

 

A limitation that does not limit a character is worth no points.

[OddHat]

Re: Aid in a VPP and Charges

 

Standard "If it doesn't limit you, it's not worth any points" rule. Also, I wold generally not let a player in my campaigns take charges on a VPP that could be switched in combat, and I would generally look very closely at an Aid in a VPP, or any use of Aid; the potential to disrupt game balance is high.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Aid in a VPP and Charges

 

You can either not allow charges in a VPP (would you allow limitations like 'only effects women', when the target is a woman or 'Only at night' when the sun just set?) OR, if you are organised enough, you can catch the bugger out the next time he tries to use Aid with: No, you used Aid already today, and bought it with one charge, so you can only use that power in your VPP once today. Sorry.

 

First way is fairer, second way is funnier.

 

VPPs do get very abused by players piling on the limitations to get lots of different powers running at the same time in a VPP.

 

Similarly, they take too much advantage of advantages, like, say, NND: if you can create a heat ray that is only stopped by LS: Heat then a freeze ray that is only stopped by LS: Cold, you are circumventing the limitations on the advantage.

 

One solution you might try is doubling the cost of advantages and halving the savings of limitations for VPP powers (anything -1/4 has no cost effect). It is still a VPP: you can still use any power you like within concept, but it tends to be the advantages and limitations that get abused, and this cuts the abuse a bit. The other advantage of this approach is that it is far easier to work out a power with no advantages or limitations on the fly than one with, and even if there is still abuse (like the NND thing above) it cuts down the harm potential.

 

Multipowers can also be open to the same sort of abuse, but to a lesser and more obvious extent. I wouldn't apply the same rule there unless I thought someone was taking me for a monkey.

[Silbeg]

Re: Aid in a VPP and Charges

 

I had a player use Aid in his cosmic VPP with 1 charge' date=' and he switched in between all of his attributes. Because of the the 1 charge LIMITATION he was getting to keep the boosts on each of them. In effect, he was getting a boost to all of his stats for no cost because then he would use the VPP for other things. I couldn't find anything in the rules about it at the time. I'd like to know what you all think about charges in cosmic vpps.[/quote']

I would argue the following:

 

Any limitation taken on a blockof points within a VPP will affect that block of points. Thus, if the power then costs, let's say, 20 real points, then 20 points of the VPP are unavailable until the charges would refresh (next day, adventure, whatever). This us really the only way to make the charge limitation make any sense within a VPP... otherwise, the character is getting free 0-END, and the ability to have more active powers, for no cost, which is wrong!

[OddHat]

Re: Aid in a VPP and Charges

 

As far as NNDs are concerned, I generally only allow one NND in any VPP; if your VPP is Psionic Powers, you can have an NND "Internal TK" versus Hardened PD, and that's it. If you come up with other NNDs you'd like to try, I'd have you take them as AVLD instead, and I'd limit your choices there as well by special effect; the alternative reduces the fun in the game for other players adventuring with the VPP user.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Aid in a VPP and Charges

 

I would argue the following:

 

Any limitation taken on a blockof points within a VPP will affect that block of points. Thus, if the power then costs, let's say, 20 real points, then 20 points of the VPP are unavailable until the charges would refresh (next day, adventure, whatever). This us really the only way to make the charge limitation make any sense within a VPP... otherwise, the character is getting free 0-END, and the ability to have more active powers, for no cost, which is wrong!

 

That's my approach. Your 60 point VPP includes a 1 charge Aid with 60 AP. That's 20 real points. If you use the charge, your VPP has only 40 real points left until the charge recovers.

 

Not official rules, but fair and reasonable IMO.

[Rapier]

Re: Aid in a VPP and Charges

 

I had a player use Aid in his cosmic VPP with 1 charge' date=' and he switched in between all of his attributes. Because of the the 1 charge LIMITATION he was getting to keep the boosts on each of them. In effect, he was getting a boost to all of his stats for no cost because then he would use the VPP for other things. I couldn't find anything in the rules about it at the time. I'd like to know what you all think about charges in cosmic vpps.[/quote']

Thus the reason that in 14 years of GMing I've allowed maybe 4 VPPs and NO cosmic ones. Not only does it take a LOT more time to set up a cosmic VPP, but it tends to detract from gameplay while you go over each new construct.

 

Maybe a gadget pool, vehicle pool, gun pool etc that is only changeable in Garage is ok...but cosmics are definately out.

 

You could also top out the number of lims if you wanted (max of -1 or -2). I would always demand an explanation for any lims also (only vs women? why? because its cheaper that way? I dont think so.).

[CBikle]

Re: Aid in a VPP and Charges

 

Well...might be easier just to get rid of the player. Players like that give VPPs a bad name.

 

VPPs can be annoying on multiple fronts(to GMs and co-players alike).

 

Besides the game-imbalancing factor, VPPs tend to eat up a lot of the GM's and the VPP owner's time and attention plus they often lead to stepping on the toes of other player's characters.

[Frenchman]

Re: Aid in a VPP and Charges

 

I would argue the following:

 

Any limitation taken on a blockof points within a VPP will affect that block of points. Thus, if the power then costs, let's say, 20 real points, then 20 points of the VPP are unavailable until the charges would refresh (next day, adventure, whatever). This us really the only way to make the charge limitation make any sense within a VPP... otherwise, the character is getting free 0-END, and the ability to have more active powers, for no cost, which is wrong!

This is similar to what I would do (I'm just waiting for one of my players to try this, I know he will eventually), except that I might just say, "You want to use an aid dex? Sorry, but you made an aid str with 1 charge, and until that charge comes back you can't use aid anymore."

Or I might do both, just to be mean.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Aid in a VPP and Charges

 

Besides the game-imbalancing factor' date=' VPPs tend to eat up a lot of the GM's and the VPP owner's time and attention plus they often lead to stepping on the toes of other player's characters.[/quote']

 

On the use of time, I'm inclined to require the player to have a list of powers for vetting beforehand. Not everything the VPP can do, but the type of things it can do.

 

For powers on the fly, the game will not stop while you do research on your desired new power. Rather, like any other player who can't decide an action in a reasonable (ie SHORT) period of time, you will be considered to have held your action while the battle rages around you.

 

At the same time, if I know a player's VPP has enough points to achieve some non-standard effect, I'm inclined not to require the power be statted out (this is more likely something like a Teleport, Aea Effect, Selective, 1 hex area, megascale, usabke against others to grab my friends and go than an attack power, which needs to have its damage capacity known, but it's easy to make a chart for attack powers).

[JmOz]

Re: Aid in a VPP and Charges

 

Also, and I cannot Voice this enough: A LIST OF COMMON LIMITATIONS THAT ARE USED FOR POWERS THAT HAS BEEN APPROVED BY THE GM

 

So it might be alright to have: Only at night on the list, but there is no way the character will now be able to use Only during the day, or underwater, or in space, etc... I will allow one, because it can make an interesting character (My dark force power works better in the dark) opposed to rules rape.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Aid in a VPP and Charges

 

So it might be alright to have: Only at night on the list' date=' but there is no way the character will now be able to use Only during the day, or underwater, or in space, etc... I will allow one, because it can make an interesting character (My dark force power works better in the dark) opposed to rules rape.[/quote']

 

Hear hear! A power that's easier to use in the dark (ie requires -1/2 of other limitations if "only in dark" must be swapped away) works nicely. However, that character can't also take "not in the dark" as a substitute limitation, or there's no limitation at all.

 

The ability to change powers on the fly also impacts this. If you can't readily swap the limits around, they become more limiting.

[Silbeg]

Re: Aid in a VPP and Charges

 

Also' date=' and I cannot Voice this enough: A LIST OF COMMON LIMITATIONS THAT ARE USED FOR POWERS THAT HAS BEEN APPROVED BY THE GM[/quote']

I actually usually go a different route:

Powers that have not been approved (prior to the game) are not permissable in the pool. Exceptions can be made for "vanilla" powers (an EB is an EB, but add modifiers, and it is no longer "vanilla"), but that would be about it.

[Rapier]

Re: Aid in a VPP and Charges

 

Hear hear! A power that's easier to use in the dark (ie requires -1/2 of other limitations if "only in dark" must be swapped away) works nicely. However, that character can't also take "not in the dark" as a substitute limitation, or there's no limitation at all.

 

The ability to change powers on the fly also impacts this. If you can't readily swap the limits around, they become more limiting.

Very much so. I would still be real tempted to come down hard on all these fuzzy constructs.

 

Only at Night? Why? Because it's cheaper? NO.

Only at Night? Why? Because its after sundown? NO.

Only at Night? Why? Because all the powers in the VPP are derived from the Goddess of Night and Mayhem. Oh, OK.

 

I've known a few players that count on their VPP to get around the GMs overview. It takes so much extra time and effort for the single player that many GMs (including myself) would tend to just wave a hand and say "whatever, move on" instead of dragging down the whole team.

 

At any rate, any VPP requires quite a bit of conversation between GM and player before the game begins so that both understand what is and is not permissible.

[JmOz]

Re: Aid in a VPP and Charges

 

Very much so. I would still be real tempted to come down hard on all these fuzzy constructs.

 

Only at Night? Why? Because it's cheaper? NO.

Only at Night? Why? Because its after sundown? NO.

Only at Night? Why? Because all the powers in the VPP are derived from the Goddess of Night and Mayhem. Oh, OK.

 

I've known a few players that count on their VPP to get around the GMs overview. It takes so much extra time and effort for the single player that many GMs (including myself) would tend to just wave a hand and say "whatever, move on" instead of dragging down the whole team.

 

At any rate, any VPP requires quite a bit of conversation between GM and player before the game begins so that both understand what is and is not permissible.

 

I do agree with you, I think the only difference is me and Hugh seperate in discussions like this the mechanical from the "in play" aspects. In otherwords, we would only aprove the limitation for someone who it fir (Maybe a character with shadow powers, etc...)

[zornwil]

Re: Aid in a VPP and Charges

 

Generally, I wouldn't allow charges in a VPP, though that's not to say I couldn't imagine a few appropriate circumstances. Similar to what's described below, I'd want either a single NND or NNDs clustered around a discernible theme. Similarly, there could be NNDs in Summoned characters, and that's okay as long as the NND is reasonably discernible for the Summoned being.

[Tamashii2000]

Re: Aid in a VPP and Charges

 

The only time I will allow for charges (and several other disadvantages) in a vvp is when they make a LOT of sense for them to be there and the PC can't change them at will. Such as a weapons vvp that can only be changed when your at your 'armory' which has say a gun (with charges). And even then in I make them take 'recoverable' charges if they don't want to temporarly lose the real points used by the power.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Aid in a VPP and Charges

 

I do it the way Silbeg and Hugh Neilson do - the Real Points are not available until the Charge Recovers.

 

IIRC, that's in Aaron Allston's Strike Force. He had some other house rules thrown in as well.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Aid in a VPP and Charges

 

I do it the way Silbeg and Hugh Neilson do - the Real Points are not available until the Charge Recovers.

 

As a note here, I think this approach is compatible with the gadget pool discussions above. A gadget pool would generaly change only outside the adventure (in which time the charges would recover) or only at a specific location (lab, armory, what have you) which would also be the logical location to pick up more ammunition.

 

The two approaches to charges in a readily changed VPP seem to stream out as "those points are locked until the charges recover" or "that is not limiting and therefore saves no points". Two sides of the coin - the former solves the problem by enforcing a limit, the latter denies a point break because there is no limit. Either way would work in my games.

[JmOz]

Re: Aid in a VPP and Charges

 

As a note here, I think this approach is compatible with the gadget pool discussions above. A gadget pool would generaly change only outside the adventure (in which time the charges would recover) or only at a specific location (lab, armory, what have you) which would also be the logical location to pick up more ammunition.

 

The two approaches to charges in a readily changed VPP seem to stream out as "those points are locked until the charges recover" or "that is not limiting and therefore saves no points". Two sides of the coin - the former solves the problem by enforcing a limit, the latter denies a point break because there is no limit. Either way would work in my games.

 

I personaly require that charges in a VPP be taken as recoverable if a Not in specific location lim has not been taken...