When caught in a time paradox, what happens?

[Guest Worldmaker]

Re: When caught in a time paradox, what happens?

 

It was also possible that a slightly-divergent timeline could be made to re-converge' date=' thus allowing time travelers a method of escape from a divergent timeline with no tunnel.[/quote']

 

Its also conceivable that microscopically divergent timelines would collapse together into a single whole on their own. For example, if the difference between Timeline A and Timeline B is "Jack puts his car keys on the left dresser in one, the right dresser on the other", it is conceivable that such a small difference is not able to cause further divergences and the timelines remerge together.

 

Or at least that's how I have it operate in my gameworld.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: When caught in a time paradox, what happens?

 

A more unusual idea is to exploit quantum uncertainty retroactively. We know quantum uncertainty theoretically produces divergent futures. Technically the same effect applies in the other direction' date=' giving us convergent pasts. This is odd because it produces a causality condition opposite from the norm. The usual wisdom is that the farther back in time you go, the more a timeline disruption is magnified, and thus the greater the chance of paradox. With convergent pasts, though, the farther back you go the [i']more[/i] freedom you have, because the universe has more opportunity to correct a possible paradox before the point of convergence arrives.

Now that is a neat idea, AA! I think I'll steal it for future use, pardon the pun!

[austenandrews]

Re: When caught in a time paradox, what happens?

 

Its also conceivable that microscopically divergent timelines would collapse together into a single whole on their own. For example, if the difference between Timeline A and Timeline B is "Jack puts his car keys on the left dresser in one, the right dresser on the other", it is conceivable that such a small difference is not able to cause further divergences and the timelines remerge together.

 

Or at least that's how I have it operate in my gameworld.

Yeah, that's the playable version of the more realistic, but far more restrictive scenario. Converging timelines are theoretically possible (or at least not disprovable ) but the problem is that no one can actually prove it happened. It's the usual Schroedinger's cat setup - if nobody ever bothers to look for evidence of which drawer the key was in, then the two pasts can coexist in a realm of quantum uncertainty. Once somebody looks, though, it collapses into a single past. So if anyone cares to investigate - and we all know how miniscule forensic evidence can be - the convergent pasts are collapsed. Which leaves us in a situation where convergent pasts are only feasible (a) in a situation where all evidence of said convergence is utterly destroyed, probably at the molecular level, and including appropriate light waves traveling away from the earth; or ( in a situation where nobody cares to investigate.

 

Not very playable in a game setting, but still kinda interesting. And loosening the technical restrictions on "evidence" can lead to unusual time-travel scenarios.

[Darth Sarcastic]

Re: When caught in a time paradox, what happens?

 

Well now don't count out miniscule details as insignificant. Sometimes these things matter somewhere down the road. In timeline "A" Bob puts his keys in the left dresser and in "B" they're in the right dresser...if either Bob forgets where he put his car keys it may or may not make any difference.

 

Sometimes it does:

Bob-A remembers where the keys are and gets to work with time to spare. Bob-B forgets and has to take the bus and shows up late. Dr. X happens to be attacking in both universes at the same time...Bob-A, having gotten to work on time is accidentally run over by an ice-cream truck and can not change into his secret ID of Captain Hero-Guy...Dr. X takes over the world. Bob-B arrives at the plant late but just in-time to step behind the bus and utter his secret magic word and become Captain Hero-Guy...and hands Dr. X his ass.

 

It also might come down to something as simple as a name. As comedian George Carlin once asked, "Would Hitler have been taken as seriously if his first name had been 'Skip'? Skip Hitler?"

 

Of course there is the theory that if you went back in time and killed Hitler (this is the most common scenario) that one of several things may happen. One possibility is that you come back to the present and Hitler never existed (which leads to other temporal problems). Another is that you kill Hitler before he's born or comes to any real power and that upon coming back to the present you find someone else in the text books in place of Hitler or even worse is you find out that the "replacement Hitler" made Hitler look like Suzanne Sommers in a coma and this person's managed to take over the world (and create other temporal issues).

 

Since I am not a fan of temporal "stuff" I am now going to stop this rant (it stopped being a post 10 minutes ago). No one need suffer my ramblings on this topic more than is necessary. I'm going to take an aspirin and lie down now.

[Badger]

Re: When caught in a time paradox, what happens?

 

Thanks for the headache guys. Actually I solve it simply. It just creates some alternate universe. Kind of like when you make decisions in real life. What if you had asked out that girl in chemistry class in 11th grade. Somewhere an alternate universe you is married to that woman. So if you went back in time to kill your parents. The timeline "forks" into your normal timeline and a second alternate timeline that you yourself created. Then if the next day you decided to kill Hitler before he comes to power. Then you have forked it again. Or maybe they do eventually can converge with the dresser. Maybe the timeline has been converged. You might have found your keys on the left dresser, even though you could have sworn you put them on the right dresser.

 

Note: If I am making no sense, blame it on yourselves, my mind devolves to SPAM with these subjects.

[Tom Carman]

Re: When caught in a time paradox, what happens?

 

Another option, this one with more psuedoscientific theory:

 

I go back in time, and do something that makes me not exist. A "ripple" travels through time and rewrites history from that point forward, taking into account my actions in the past, until it reaches the point where I time-traveled. If I no longer exist, then at that point I could not time-travel, so a second ripple goes backwards through time, and then erases me from the past. This creates a new time-ripple, this time going forwards, and having the same result.

 

Now, this would seem to create a neverending loop, but...use the idea that events are not predestined, that at a basic level the universe is random. So every time a ripple rewrites history, it will do so in a slightly different way. Since the time-ripple takes no time, this will happen an infinite number of times between ticks of the clock - until eventually a reality appears that resolves the problem. What this translates to is that, if someone creates something that would result in a paradox, history rewrites itself into a likely form that would prevent the paradox - no matter how bizarre it might be - and it always was that way from a temporal perspective.

ObSF ref: Thrice Upon a Time (by James Hogan, I think)

[austenandrews]

Re: When caught in a time paradox, what happens?

 

ObSF ref: Thrice Upon a Time (by James Hogan' date=' I think)[/quote']

That was a fun book.

 

It also correlates to Niven's Law about time - that travelling into the past inherently creates paradox, which continually changes the timeline. The only stable state is the timeline in which time travel is never invented. Sooner or later (whatever that means) a paradoxical timeline will rid itself of time travel and heal the paradox.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: When caught in a time paradox, what happens?

 

ObSF ref: Thrice Upon a Time (by James Hogan' date=' I think)[/quote']

Yup. James P. Hogan's a good writer, and I enjoyed that one thoroughly.

[Bucky]

Re: When caught in a time paradox, what happens?

 

I go back in time and murder my father before he met my mother' date=' thus preventing my birth and thus (at leas it is supposed) my ability to go back and prevent my own birth. But (and here's where the conservation of matter comes in) I, the now-orphan-in-time, will actually still exist, because my physical state is present prior to the discontinuity[/quote'] I don't think this helps. The matter that comprises you now, existed then (how else could it be included in you, now, if it did not exist?) So if you did go back in time, there would be two "yous" there. One fully assembled, and one disassembled or parts of many other different objects, rocks, trees, other animals and the like.

 

In other words, you existed before you existed, so going back to a time before you existed does not work. Does this make any sense whatsoever?

 

Personally I hate time travel stories. I don't think it is possible, period. I know that FTL, coupled with General Relativity conjectures time travel, but I see this as more a mis- or imcomplete understand of the nature and properties of the temporal dimension, as well as a conjecture as to the meaning of a negative square root. It should be pointed out that using GR formulas for velocities above the speed of light produce a square root of a negative number. Which does not fit well in mathematics.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: When caught in a time paradox, what happens?

 

It should be pointed out that using GR formulas for velocities above the speed of light produce a square root of a negative number. Which does not fit well in mathematics.

As a mathematician, I can assure you that the square root of a negative number fits quite well into mathematics.

[DocMan]

Re: When caught in a time paradox, what happens?

 

I know that FTL' date=' coupled with General Relativity conjectures time travel, but I see this as more a mis- or imcomplete understand of the nature and properties of the temporal dimension, as well as a conjecture as to the meaning of a negative square root.[/quote']

 

OK... Pet peeve time.

 

FTL travel does not conjecture time travel.

 

At Relativistic speeds below the speed of light, time for the traveler slows down when compared to the time of an outside observer.

 

At the speed of light, time for the traveler appears to stop when compared to the time of an outside observer.

 

At speeds above the speed of light, time for the traveler appears to run backwards when compared to the time of an outside observer.

 

This does not mean that your FTL traveller moves backwards in time. It means your FTL traveller is younger when he arrives than when he left (and may not remember deciding to take the journey in the first place!).

 

In all cases, time for the universe marches on.

 

Doc

[Guest Worldmaker]

Re: When caught in a time paradox, what happens?

 

I don't think this helps. The matter that comprises you now, existed then (how else could it be included in you, now, if it did not exist?) So if you did go back in time, there would be two "yous" there. One fully assembled, and one disassembled or parts of many other different objects, rocks, trees, other animals and the like.

 

In other words, you existed before you existed, so going back to a time before you existed does not work. Does this make any sense whatsoever?

 

 

Sure. But that's still how I work it.

[austenandrews]

Re: When caught in a time paradox, what happens?

 

This does not mean that your FTL traveller moves backwards in time. It means your FTL traveller is younger when he arrives than when he left (and may not remember deciding to take the journey in the first place!).

Depends on how you look at it. From his perspective his FTL journey started at what you consider the endpoint of his journey, when he "arrives younger." So what you consider the starting point he considers the endpoint, because time ran backwards for him during the trip.

 

Of course that doesn't make any sense - he can't climb into the FTL ship and immediately be at the end of his trip - but then time travel doesn't make much sense anyway.

[austenandrews]

Re: When caught in a time paradox, what happens?

 

In other words' date=' you existed before you existed, so going back to a time before you existed does not work. Does this make any sense whatsoever?[/quote']

That depends on what you call "you."

[Darth Sarcastic]

Re: When caught in a time paradox, what happens?

 

Ok, time for truths here (is that possible in a time paradox?).

 

Here's what I (and all my other temporal selves) do "When caught in a time paradox..." and these are not neccessarilly in order...

 

1. Vomit

2. Beat the GM with a heavy object

3. Finish eating the Chinese food we ordered

4. Beat the GM with a heavy object

5. Quote Monty Python or Star (Trek, Wars, Hero...etc)

6. Ask the GM if this temporal stuff is his final answer

[Curufea]

Re: When caught in a time paradox, what happens?

 

I'd also add-

 

1) Become utterly disgusted at being in a game that has time travel.

2) Get irate that it is yet another time paradox cliche.

[Foxiekins]

Re: When caught in a time paradox, what happens?

 

Here's what I (and all my other temporal selves) do "When caught in a time paradox..." and these are not neccessarilly in order...

 

1. Vomit

2. Beat the GM with a heavy object

3. Finish eating the Chinese food we ordered

4. Beat the GM with a heavy object

5. Quote Monty Python or Star (Trek, Wars, Hero...etc)

6. Ask the GM if this temporal stuff is his final answer

 

I thought there was no step 6...

[Darth Sarcastic]

Re: When caught in a time paradox, what happens?

 

I thought there was no step 6...

 

That's only if there's a step/rule #7.

[Foxiekins]

Nyeah...!!!

 

That's only if there's a step/rule #7.

 

But if there is no step/rule #6, then what you would put there *IS* #7...

 

So THERE...!!!

[austenandrews]

Re: Nyeah...!!!

 

This is more confusing than the time travel problem.

[DocMan]

Re: Nyeah...!!!

 

No it isn't.

 

Doc

[austenandrews]

Re: Nyeah...!!!

 

No it isn't.

That's not an argument! You're just contradicting me. (#5)

 

Come to think of it, we could use this derailment to learn something about paradoxes. Let's say for example that Darth Sarcastic edits his original post to remove step 6, which is analogous to traveling back in time and changing the past. Now Foxiekins's reply, "I thought there was no step 6," looks nonsensical. From this we can conclude that in the event of a time travel paradox, people in the future look stupid for doing the wrong things all of a sudden. However, no one in the future would realize they were doing the wrong things until the moment at which the time traveler went back to muck everything up, because before that the past hadn't changed yet. After the moment of departure people would start doing the right things again, because otherwise they'd look really stupid; and the paradox would be terminated.

 

Note that this leaves a segment of the timestream (between Darth Sarcastic's changes to the past and his departure from the future) which is internally consistent but paradoxical with events on either side of it. Since pretty much everyone during this time span looked stupid, anyone who was stupid independent of Darth Sarcastic's changes can argue that their idiocy was an artifact of time travel. Therefore it's possible to behave inanely all the time, on the assumption that a time traveler will eventually pop into the past, screw something up and provide the perfect excuse. Since this is a distinct possibility, the stupid behavior will in fact be justified, rendering it not really dumb at all.

 

This effect is known as the twink paradox.

 

(Footnote: The above thought experiment does not take into account the laws of thermodynamics as they apply to idiots: 1) Idiocy is never destroyed; 2) Idiocy always increases; and 3) You can never be entirely free of idiots.)

[DocMan]

Re: Nyeah...!!!

 

That's not an argument! You're just contradicting me. (#5)

 

I am not!

 

(Footnote: The above thought experiment does not take into account the laws of thermodynamics as they apply to idiots: 1) Idiocy is never destroyed; 2) Idiocy always increases; and 3) You can never be entirely free of idiots.)

 

Then logicly, a) Only an idiot would invent a time machine, and eventually an idiot WILL build a time machine. Which leads to c) the idiot will then create a paradox to see how the universe deals with them.

 

Doc