Alien Wars: Before hyperdrive, there was...

[Basil]

...what? IOW, what FTL existed before "hyperdrive", in the 'official' Terran Empire/Alien Wars timeline?

 

Alien Wars, page 125, boxed text, gives the introduction of the Class Alpha Hypredrive as happening in 2203. Yet on page 7 it says The Colony Act was passed by the Senate on 2104. Obviously, something preceded Hyperdrive.

 

OK, I'll bet 2104 is a typo for 2204. Still, with Alpha Centauri 4.4 ly away, and Class Alpha going 1.2 ly per year, it would take 3.7 years for a spaceship to get to Alpha Centauri. Obviously, there is no way hyperdrive was the first FTL.

 

So, what is the ***OFFICIAL*** answer to "what FTL came before Class Alpha Hyperdrive?"

Or is this a lack of continuity to the TE/AW timeline?

[DrTemp]

Re: Alien Wars: Before hyperdrive, there was...

 

If I remember correctly, the class Alpha was the first mass-produced hyperdrive, but prototypes were certainly available much earlier. As much as you cannot buy an ion drive for your personal space probe today at "Old Neil's used spaceship parts", the early hyperdrives were purely gouvernmental experimening drives not available to the public in a way that a "class" of drives could be called existing.

 

I also vaguely remember reading about slower-than-light-hyperdrives as being the first uses of that technology. If they did some 0.5 c, they were still usefull for exploration.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Alien Wars: Before hyperdrive, there was...

 

IIRC, the Colony Act was passed *before* FTL was readily available. Early colonization used long-term sleeper ships.

[DrTemp]

Re: Alien Wars: Before hyperdrive, there was...

 

IIRC' date=' the Colony Act was passed *before* FTL was readily available. Early colonization used long-term sleeper ships.[/quote']

 

Just looked it up- you are correct. The Colony Act pased the UE Senate in 2104, (no typo, the year is repeated in the text), "nearly a hundred years before the invention of Hyperdrive technology".

[Metaphysician]

Re: Alien Wars: Before hyperdrive, there was...

 

Which, btw, was the main reason there were problems with the Colony Act in the context of FTL expansion. Problems that would have consequences out to a full 600 years after it was first created.

[Basil]

Re: Alien Wars: Before hyperdrive, there was...

 

Just looked it up- you are correct. The Colony Act pased the UE Senate in 2104' date=' (no typo, the year is repeated in the text), "nearly a hundred years before the invention of Hyperdrive technology".[/quote']

Yes, it does. That still does not answer the question: "What FTL, if any, existed before 'Hyperdrive' in the **OFFICIAL** time-line."

 

IIRC' date=' the Colony Act was passed *before* FTL was readily available. Early colonization used long-term sleeper ships.[/quote']

Could you tell me where you got that from? I can't find anything in either "Alien Wars" nor "Terran Empire" regarding pre-'Hyperdrive' propulsion, other than admitting rockets existed "way back when" (BTW, why only chemical and nuclear? Ion, solar-sails, beamed energy, Bussard & catalytic ramjets, etc. are all currently-known possibilities).

 

As for "0.5 g" rockets, I've treated the problem of propellent mass in another thread. Any craft with a reasonable propellent mass fraction will either take *centuries* to reach the *nearest* stars, or require an energy source of staggering power *and mass*. And if you have a gigaton power source (plus support for it and the people to run it, and the people to take care of them, etc.), having a propellent *fraction* below 0.0001 will not help, and the propellent *mass* becomes ludicrous (along with the mass of the craft). So, no matter how fast your exhaust velocity is, you'll spend 95%+ of the time coasting.

 

Frankly, without a rubber-science STL, colonizing even handful of star systems is a 4-5 century project. *At* *best*.

 

So the question remains, what is Herogames' OFFICIAL explanation?

 

Mr. Long? Mr. Thomas? Are you listening?

[DrTemp]

Re: Alien Wars: Before hyperdrive, there was...

 

Frankly, without a rubber-science STL, colonizing even handful of star systems is a 4-5 century project. *At* *best*.

 

Well, give them some kind of Russard ramjet, the'd have some 10% of lightspeed. Colonizing a new system would thus come down to a matter of decades.

 

So the question remains, what is Herogames' OFFICIAL explanation?

 

Mr. Long? Mr. Thomas? Are you listening?

 

I'd really love to read that, too. I know that Star Hero is currently not as profitable as it needs to be, but still, the settings are cool (minor difficulties aside) and I'd love to learn more about them.

[Reneshat]

Re: Alien Wars: Before hyperdrive, there was...

 

Isn't it obvious? Before Hyperdrive there was really-really-really-fast drive.

[DrTemp]

Re: Alien Wars: Before hyperdrive, there was...

 

Isn't it obvious? Before Hyperdrive there was really-really-really-fast drive.

There is, indeed, a tendency among some people to see it that way, but I personally find this... uhm, silly. I can have that kind of "I don't care how that works" attitude in any regular fantasy campaign. SF is, by definition, different. Especially military SF, which usually wants to be hard SF as well.

[allen]

Re: Alien Wars: Before hyperdrive, there was...

 

So the question remains, what is Herogames' OFFICIAL explanation?

 

Mr. Long? Mr. Thomas? Are you listening?

 

Yeah, I'm here, but I'm not the person to give you an official explanation... however, when working on ALIEN WARS, I based the past on the Hero Universe document (that you can find here: http://www.herogames.com/FreeStuff/freedocs/HeroUniverse.pdf)

 

To quote from the section on Solar Hero: "Solar Hero is a hard SF/low SF setting limited to our solar system, with perhaps tentative, slower-than-light (sleeper ship, generation ships, and the like) journeys to nearby systems...."

 

From the same document, FTL-drives first come into use in the first few years of the Interstellar Era (starting in 2200 and described in the same document linked above), and that's the Alpha Class Hyperdrive.

[Jhamin]

Re: Alien Wars: Before hyperdrive, there was...

 

Or to take a refrence directly from a Hero Book

 

Galactic Champions by Darren Watts, P.25

"In the year 2149, Humanity developed true portable fusion energy sources, allowing ships to travel between planets at previously unthinkable speeds."

 

Apparently the first human colony was founded on Mars on 2093.

 

It goes on to say that hyperdrive was invented in 2203, which allowed travel at 20% faster than the speed of light. It was not until 11 years later (in 2214) that the first human colony outside the Sol system was founded on Alpha Centauri IV.

 

So it sounds to me like the earliest colonies were probably created using very slow chemical or Ion drives. These drives were replaced by (i'm guessing) much more powerful particle drives powered by fusion reactions.

 

Fusion power plants allowed STL travel for about 60 years before hyperdrive was invented, but that there was no permanent human presence outside of our solar system during that time.

[Steve Long]

Re: Alien Wars: Before hyperdrive, there was...

 

So the question remains, what is Herogames' OFFICIAL explanation?

 

Mr. Long? Mr. Thomas? Are you listening?

 

We are. My official explanation is I don't want to say anything now that would tie my hands later. It may take a while, but I do want to get around to publishing those other settings at some point. Even if I wanted to delve back into it right now and come up with a quickie quasi-plausible answer I could back off of later, I don't have the time right now -- gotta finish up HC. But I'll see if I can find the time after that.

[Basil]

Re: Alien Wars: Before hyperdrive, there was...

 

Well' date=' give them some kind of Russard ramjet, the'd have some 10% of lightspeed. Colonizing a new system would thus come down to a matter of decades.[/quote']

 

There are problems with Bussard ramjets. The Starflight Handbook gives that 0.1c figure, but it's copyright 1989, and I believe it is now thought Bussard ramjets could not achieve above circa 0.05c, if they're possible at all (which many now doubt). Also, they would need to get up to circa 0.01-0.02 c before they'd "kick over", and that would have to be achieved by rockets, solar sails, or what-have-you.

 

Even at 0.1c, it would take 44 years to get to Alpha Centauri (or 43 for Proxima, but I don't see that being settled until Alpha A/B settles it). If "The Colony Act" is in 2104, the colonizing ship heading to Alpha Centauri must leave by 2056 (to account for one way signal from Alpha Centauri to Earth). Actually, if Alpha Centauri has a representative in the Senate, he/she will be a native of the Solar System (rather like Uganda, say, sending a Canadian to the UN--a Canadian who can never get to Uganda). Add in the problem of 8.8 year round-trip time for communication, and the whole thing looks curiouser and curiouser.

 

Note, that if Bussard (and catalytic) ramjets are not possible, you throw in the whole propellent mass problem.

 

Frankly, IMO, what Alien Wars and Terran Empire needs is to take the Reactionless Drive from Terran Empire (p.158ff) and have them invented 5 centuries earlier. With a propellent-less drive in the mid 21st century, there's no need to worry about how a real-world STL works.

 

You still have decades between star systems, but that's cool for certain sorts of settings.

EDIT: Of course, you also have to treat "Flight" as acceleration, not velocity. At 600"/Turn (100 m/s), it takes 47.4 years to go 1 AU, which is useless even inside the Solar System (and way slower than what we can already do).

[DrTemp]

Re: Alien Wars: Before hyperdrive, there was...

 

Frankly, IMO, what Alien Wars and Terran Empire needs is to take the Reactionless Drive from Terran Empire (p.158ff) and have them invented 5 centuries earlier. With a propellent-less drive in the mid 21st century, there's no need to worry about how a real-word STL works.

 

Another option might be giving Earth an actual Antimatter infrastructure and letting starships use antimatter photon drives. Those would have an exhaust speed of near c (light speed), and that'd significantly reduce the amount of propellant needed.

 

That kind of fuel would not be "easy to obtain", though.

[Basil]

Re: Alien Wars: Before hyperdrive, there was...

 

Yeah' date=' I'm here, but I'm not the person to give you an official explanation... however, when working on ALIEN WARS, I based the past on the Hero Universe document (that you can find here: http://www.herogames.com/FreeStuff/freedocs/HeroUniverse.pdf)[/quote']

I have that on my hard-drive, but never thought to look at it. Thanks for the reminder.

Still, it brings up the question: What "Senate Worlds" are there in 2104? If we accept a speed of 0.2c, a ship starting TODAY would reach only 10 ly by 2104 (the date of The Colony Act). That gives a choice of 7 star systems: Alpha Centauri A/B/C, Barnard's Star, Wolf 359, LP 263-64, UV Ceti A/B, Procyon A/B, and Gl 729. Note that the last of those is 9.56 ly away. It would take 95.6 years to get there, *and* 9.56 years for a message to get back to Earth, for a total "trip time" of 105.16 years. A ship leaving TODAY would not be known (for sure) to have colonized until 2109, 5 years after The Colony Act.

 

To quote from the section on Solar Hero: "Solar Hero is a hard SF/low SF setting limited to our solar system' date=' with perhaps tentative, slower-than-light (sleeper ship, generation ships, and the like) journeys to nearby systems...."[/quote']

I hope that some more attention will be paid to the laws of physics in Solar Hero. There are some ways to fudge things without getting too far from reality-as-we-know it, but there's lots and lots of ways to really drop the ball on realism. :|

 

From the same document' date=' FTL-drives first come into use in the first few years of the Interstellar Era (starting in 2200 and described in the same document linked above), and that's the Alpha Class Hyperdrive.[/quote']

OK, guess I've been answered. Frankly, I like AW and TE, but the whole chemical/nuclear-rockets-don't-need-propellent fluff just gets under my skin.

[Basil]

Re: Alien Wars: Before hyperdrive, there was...

 

Or to take a refrence directly from a Hero Book

 

Galactic Champions by Darren Watts, P.25

"In the year 2149, Humanity developed true portable fusion energy sources, allowing ships to travel between planets at previously unthinkable speeds."

 

Apparently the first human colony was founded on Mars on 2093.

Now there's some info that ought to have been in Alien Wars (& maybe Terran Empire). That gives some highly useful background info.

 

It goes on to say that hyperdrive was invented in 2203' date=' which allowed travel at 20% faster than the speed of light. It was not until 11 years later (in 2214) that the first human colony outside the Sol system was founded on Alpha Centauri IV.[/quote']

Then what are the Senate Worlds in 2104???

 

So it sounds to me like the earliest colonies were probably created using very slow chemical or Ion drives. These drives were replaced by (i'm guessing) much more powerful particle drives powered by fusion reactions.

 

Fusion power plants allowed STL travel for about 60 years before hyperdrive was invented, but that there was no permanent human presence outside of our solar system during that time.

The problem with even fusion power plants is the propellent fraction has to be enormously high, or the travel times are enormously long. Or, you don't settle outside the Solar System at all.

Of course, even inside the Solar System, travel times are high between planets. And the easiest way to go faster that Hohmann orbits is not fusion-powered (near) constant acceleration, but light sails.

 

I'm sorry, but I'm just not buying the whole timeline for Alien Wars. I know it's jsut a game, and hand-waving is expected and perfectly fine. But in a supposedly gritty, "realistic" sub-genre like Military SF, a good deal of 'respect' for physics-as-we-know-it is a desideratum. And on lthe whole matter of propulsion, Alien Wars falls down on the job.

[Basil]

Re: Alien Wars: Before hyperdrive, there was...

 

We are. My official explanation is I don't want to say anything now that would tie my hands later. It may take a while' date=' but I do want to get around to publishing those other settings at [i']some[/i] point. Even if I wanted to delve back into it right now and come up with a quickie quasi-plausible answer I could back off of later, I don't have the time right now -- gotta finish up HC. But I'll see if I can find the time after that.

Well, that's a & to me.

 

 

[allen]

Re: Alien Wars: Before hyperdrive, there was...

 

Still, it brings up the question: What "Senate Worlds" are there in 2104?...

 

errr... ummmm... Mars? ok. maybe not.

 

well, to be honest, in my attempt to not back the guy who writes Solar Hero into a corner, i muffed it up. the description should include a passage along the following:

 

Member nations of the United Earth in the year 2104 passed the Colony Act, which states the colony is the sole responsibility of the member nation, not the United Earth government, yadda, yadda, yadda, and at a later date, when the nation-states of Earth became parts of a one-world government, the Colony Act was then interpreted to apply to Senate Worlds also.

[Basil]

Re: Alien Wars: Before hyperdrive, there was...

 

Another option might be giving Earth an actual Antimatter infrastructure and letting starships use antimatter photon drives. Those would have an exhaust speed of near c (light speed), and that'd significantly reduce the amount of propellant needed.

 

That kind of fuel would not be "easy to obtain", though.

 

It'd also be a ***** to store! It would be dangerous in the extreme, be subject to "shrinkage", etc.

 

Also, the "antimatter photonic" rocket idea (advanced by Eugen Sänger in the 1950's) is unworkable. The current thinking is to use antiprotons only, and either "channel" the pions produced when they interact with protons, via a "magnetic nozzle", or to use the interaction to heat a propellent (such as hydrogen, water, methane, etc.) and have that "fly out the back". Either one means a noteworthy amount of propellent.

 

BTW, according to The Starflight Handbook, for anitmatter rockets (for use in the Solar System, mind you!) to be feasible, the cost of making antiprotons has to come down to ~$10 million per milligram, and the current (1989) cost is $100 billion per milligram.

[Basil]

Re: Alien Wars: Before hyperdrive, there was...

 

errr... ummmm... Mars? ok. maybe not.

 

well, to be honest, in my attempt to not back the guy who writes Solar Hero into a corner, i muffed it up. the description should include a passage along the following:

 

Member nations of the United Earth in the year 2104 passed the Colony Act, which states the colony is the sole responsibility of the member nation, not the United Earth government, yadda, yadda, yadda, and at a later date, when the nation-states of Earth became parts of a one-world government, the Colony Act was then interpreted to apply to Senate Worlds also.

That'd work.

 

Of course it raises the question: when does Earth get a one-world government? Also, what of the UN's "no exploitation of outer space" treaty (I forget its proper name)? In fact, how does that debating group called "The United Nations" turn into "the United Earth" -- of course, those questions don't have to be answered now. That's what "Solar Hero" is for.

[DrTemp]

Re: Alien Wars: Before hyperdrive, there was...

 

It'd also be a ***** to store! It would be dangerous in the extreme, be subject to "shrinkage", etc.

 

There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

 

Also, the "antimatter photonic" rocket idea (advanced by Eugen Sänger in the 1950's) is unworkable. The current thinking is to use antiprotons only, and either "channel" the pions produced when they interact with protons, via a "magnetic nozzle", or to use the interaction to heat a propellent (such as hydrogen, water, methane, etc.) and have that "fly out the back". Either one means a noteworthy amount of propellent.

 

How can this be for the former? The latter, okay, sure. But simply redirecting the pions should not require any additional propellant?

 

BTW, according to The Starflight Handbook, for anitmatter rockets (for use in the Solar System, mind you!) to be feasible, the cost of making antiprotons has to come down to ~$10 million per milligram, and the current (1989) cost is $100 billion per milligram.

 

That is something a revolutionary energy source like fusion power, combined with new, better techniques of producing antimatter and a reason to do so on a large scale could actually do.

[MitchellS]

Re: Alien Wars: Before hyperdrive, there was...

 

Then what are the Senate Worlds in 2104???

There are no Senate Worlds in 2104. That is when the Colony Act was signed. It was at that point that the Earth Government agreed to let the Senate colonize worlds and take control of them if they would pay for the colonization process. The Earth Government agreed to that in part because they knew it would take decades to colonize a world without the Hyperdrives.

[MitchellS]

Re: Alien Wars: Before hyperdrive, there was...

 

Now there's some info that ought to have been in Alien Wars (& maybe Terran Empire). That gives some highly useful background info.

The fusion plant informatin is in both books. Mars getting a colony is mentioned in Terran Empire.

[MitchellS]

Re: Alien Wars: Before hyperdrive, there was...

 

Frankly' date=' IMO, what Alien Wars and Terran Empire needs is to take the Reactionless Drive from Terran Empire (p.158ff) and have them invented 5 centuries earlier. With a propellent-less drive in the mid 21st century, there's no need to worry about how a real-world STL works.[/quote']

You are assuming because the world didn't have the Class Alpha drive until 2203 that they had nothing but rockets before then. But I would point out that the "better" chemical and fusion rockets in AW were not invented until 2253, 50 years later. It is obvious that there was something that allowed space travel between 2100-2200. There could have been several different things which allowed for 0.5-0.8c travel which just became obsolete after 2203. We just don't know what it is, yet.

[Basil]

Re: Alien Wars: Before hyperdrive, there was...

 

There are no Senate Worlds in 2104. That is when the Colony Act was signed. It was at that point that the Earth Government agreed to let the Senate colonize worlds and take control of them if they would pay for the colonization process. The Earth Government agreed to that in part because they knew it would take decades to colonize a world without the Hyperdrives.

 

From Alien Wars, page 7:

"The Senate itself created the conflict between federalism and planetary rights by passing the Colony Act of 2104. The Act stated that individual Senate Worlds {emphasis added}, not the United Earth government, were wholly responsible for establishing and administering Colony Worlds."

 

Now, one could assume the Colony Act created the concept "Senate Worlds", even though there weren't any, and also said they would be responsible for all colonizing efforts. That, however, raises the question of who/what is responsible for colonizing the "Senate Worlds".

 

Sorry, that won't fly.