Alien Wars: Before hyperdrive, there was...

[Basil]

Re: Alien Wars: Before hyperdrive, there was...

 

Now there's some info that ought to have been in Alien Wars (& maybe Terran Empire). That gives some highly useful background info.

The fusion plant informatin is in both books. Mars getting a colony is mentioned in Terran Empire.

Allow me to repeat what I was responding to:

Or to take a refrence directly from a Hero Book

 

Galactic Champions by Darren Watts, P.25

"In the year 2149, Humanity developed true portable fusion energy sources, allowing ships to travel between planets at previously unthinkable speeds."

 

Apparently the first human colony was founded on Mars on 2093.

I thought it clear, in the context of the discussion, that I was referring to the specification of the dates. There is nothing in either Alien Wars nor Terran Empire that says when those two events occured. Which, to my mind, is important information; information that certainly could easily have been included.

[Basil]

Re: Alien Wars: Before hyperdrive, there was...

 

You are assuming because the world didn't have the Class Alpha drive until 2203 that they had nothing but rockets before then.

No, but I see nothing else mentioned anywhere. Indeed, I'm sure the settlement of the Solar System will not, and reasonably could not, be done with rockets alone. The matter of propellent is too grave for dependence on rockets alone.

 

But I would point out that the "better" chemical and fusion rockets in AW were not invented until 2253' date=' 50 years later. It is obvious that there was something that allowed space travel between 2100-2200.[/quote']

Is it obvious?

It was not until 11 years later (in 2214) that the first human colony outside the Sol system was founded on Alpha Centauri IV.

Thus, there was no settlement outside the Solar System, and hence no manned flight outside the Solar System until Hyperdrive came along.

 

So, I guess one must assume the statement in AW, page 7, that The Colony Act did said that Senate Worlds were responsible for colonization, is wrong, and that the Act said members of the Senate (I guess separate nations) were so responsible.

Which brings up a number of other question, such as what nations managed to colonize, when did Earth get a true one-world government, etc.

 

There could have been several different things which allowed for 0.5-0.8c travel which just became obsolete after 2203. We just don't know what it is' date=' yet. [/quote']

Such a drive would not become obsolete for STL! If there's something that can accelerate to 0.5c or higher, at a reasonable cost (in money, energy, propellent or lack thereof), there would be utterly no reason to abandon it.

 

Also, let me quote from AW p.125 (copied in TE page 158): "Travel within Hyperspace depends of two things: first, a ship's normal propulsion (since the ship has to propel itself through Hyperspace)..." Thus, whatever STL is in use, is part of FTL. If there's something better than rockets by 2203, it won't become obsolete when the Hyperdrive shunt is invented.

[DrTemp]

Re: Alien Wars: Before hyperdrive, there was...

 

Now, one could assume the Colony Act created the concept "Senate Worlds", even though there weren't any,

 

That's not correct. There was at least Earth.

 

Suggestion: The Colony Act was actually some kind of political maneuver to achieve some completely different, more day-to-day buisiness-like thing which is now long forgotten. "By accident", it was also a document that allowed for the legal concept of "more than one Senate world", because until then, there was only one world allowed to send senators, and that was Earth, of course. (For example, the real idea behind the Colony Act and a few related documents that in effect changed the UE's constitution could have been to install a new office: That of Earth's senator, who would have been quite powerful given the fact that he was the only one...no one of those who passed the Colony Act really believed that there could ever be a real "Senate" with many Senators.)

[DrTemp]

Re: Alien Wars: Before hyperdrive, there was...

 

Such a drive would not become obsolete for STL! If there's something that can accelerate to 0.5c or higher, at a reasonable cost (in money, energy, propellent or lack thereof), there would be utterly no reason to abandon it.

 

Well, it could have been a drive that was of very high impulse, but very low thrust, allowing for accelerations of 0.01 g (0.1 m/s^2) or even less, but for a very long time with a given propellant mass. That would make it useless for tactical or short-term operations, but quite valuable for interstellar travel at STL speeds.

[MitchellS]

Re: Alien Wars: Before hyperdrive, there was...

 

Now, one could assume the Colony Act created the concept "Senate Worlds", even though there weren't any, and also said they would be responsible for all colonizing efforts. That, however, raises the question of who/what is responsible for colonizing the "Senate Worlds".

 

Sorry, that won't fly.

The point is the Senate knew there were worlds to be colonized and so they passed the Colony Act before people began to be shipped to those worlds. The Senate wanted control of those worlds. The Earth Government allowed them to have the act because they knew it would take decades before many well-established colonies could be formed. As you said, at 0.5c you are looking at several years to get to Alpha Centauri alone, and there is supply, terraforming, etc. The Earth Government knew that it could all be settled at a later date. It was just a way of the Government getting something for free and then thinking they could fix it a century down the road to better suit them. Unfortunately a century later hyperdrives appeared and things got more complicated. Now they were not talking about 4 years to Alpha Centauri or Vega or where ever.

 

It would seem to make a lot of sense that the Senate would try to get the Colony Act passes before there were colonies. They wanted the control, and they got it, but they had to pay for it.

[MitchellS]

Re: Alien Wars: Before hyperdrive, there was...

 

I thought it clear' date=' in the context of the discussion, that I was referring to the specification of the dates. There is nothing in either Alien Wars nor Terran Empire that says when those two events occured. Which, to my mind, is important information; information that certainly could easily have been included.[/quote']

Terran Empire page 158 clearly shows that fusion reactors were created in 2149. Page 58 of TE says that Mars was colonized in 2093. I've only had the books a week and have not completely read them, so there might be more references I'm missing.

[MitchellS]

Re: Alien Wars: Before hyperdrive, there was...

 

Is it obvious?

It must be obvious. You, yourself, just got through saying "I'm sure the settlement of the Solar System will not, and reasonably could not, be done with rockets alone" so that must mean they used something else; something that will be described in Solar Hero no doubt.

[MitchellS]

Re: Alien Wars: Before hyperdrive, there was...

 

Thus, whatever STL is in use, is part of FTL. If there's something better than rockets by 2203, it won't become obsolete when the Hyperdrive shunt is invented.

The fusion rocket of 2253 only gives a sustained speed of 570" per turn. That is a whopping 194 mph. I somehow think there is something between 194 mph and 1.2 LY per year.

[MitchellS]

Re: Alien Wars: Before hyperdrive, there was...

 

Suggestion: The Colony Act was actually some kind of political maneuver to achieve some completely different' date=' more day-to-day buisiness-like thing which is now long forgotten. "By accident", it was also a document that allowed for the legal concept of "more than one Senate world", because until then, there was only one world allowed to send senators, and that was Earth, of course. (For example, the real idea behind the Colony Act and a few related documents that in effect changed the UE's constitution could have been to install a new office: That of Earth's senator, who would have been quite powerful given the fact that he was the only one...no one of those who passed the Colony Act really believed that there could ever be a real "Senate" with many Senators.)[/quote']

I see the Senate as seeing Mars colonized in 2093 by the Earth Government and decided if they wanted more control then they needed new laws passed quickly. 11 years later they finally got the colony act. Then they started to make their move by colonizing outlying systems; Alpha Centauri being first as it's the closest.

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Alien Wars: Before hyperdrive, there was...

 

My explanation...

 

At first, lots of sleeper ships and generational ships were sent out, but some ships accidently fell victim to a previously unknown gravitational anomaly resulting from some undetected dark matter. These pockets of dark matter would slingshot ships to near light speed (or beyond) in the same direction they were previously travelling. Thereby (usually) cutting huge amounts of travel time but also horribly damaging the ship, sometimes losing people and cargo in the process. But, the excess velocity was usually bled off before reaching another solar system. Also, if the entry direction was off by a degree, well, I hope you like your new destination.

 

Oddly enough, the universe has more of these pockets than planets, so it should be considered quite normal.

 

Today, these pockets of dark matter sometimes affectionally known as Skid Zones, Bounce Points, God's Slingshots (and other more colorful names) can be easily detected and are really best to be avoided as a severe hazard. However, if you are in the middle of nowhere with a broken FTL drive, one can be excused for at least considering using one if it is nearby.

[Steve]

Re: Alien Wars: Before hyperdrive, there was...

 

My explanation...

 

At first, lots of sleeper ships and generational ships were sent out, but some ships accidently fell victim to a previously unknown gravitational anomaly resulting from some undetected dark matter. These pockets of dark matter would slingshot ships to near light speed (or beyond) in the same direction they were previously travelling. Thereby (usually) cutting huge amounts of travel time but also horribly damaging the ship, sometimes losing people and cargo in the process. But, the excess velocity was usually bled off before reaching another solar system. Also, if the entry direction was off by a degree, well, I hope you like your new destination.

 

Oddly enough, the universe has more of these pockets than planets, so it should be considered quite normal.

 

Today, these pockets of dark matter sometimes affectionally known as Skid Zones, Bounce Points, God's Slingshots (and other more colorful names) can be easily detected and are really best to be avoided as a severe hazard. However, if you are in the middle of nowhere with a broken FTL drive, one can be excused for at least considering using one if it is nearby.

 

You know, that's not a bad idea. While it has the rubber science feel of Star Trek to it, it would be a fair way explain how you could have human colonies way off the beaten track and far beyond what the 21st-22nd century technology would allow for. I could see them as a real downside to hyperspace travel, since they could probably rip the guts out of a hyperdrive by creating some sort of subspace eddy or even a kind of gravitational riptide.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Alien Wars: Before hyperdrive, there was...

 

But' date=' the excess velocity was usually bled off before reaching another solar system. [/quote']

Uh, I hate to rain on your parade, but by what mechanism is the excess velocity "bled off"? It's not like they're in an atmosphere where they'd loose velocity due to friction...

[DrTemp]

Re: Alien Wars: Before hyperdrive, there was...

 

Uh' date=' I hate to rain on your parade, but by what mechanism is the excess velocity "bled off"? It's not like they're in an atmosphere where they'd loose velocity due to friction...[/quote']

 

Well, friction is the cause nevertheless. Interstellar space is not as empty as it would seem- it has, indeed, a very, very, very, very thin "atmosphere" of hydrogen and other gases. That does not matter normally, but when moving at the speed of light...

[Southern Cross]

Re: Alien Wars: Before hyperdrive, there was...

 

And what sort of protection would they have against radiation? Remember the Doppler Effect applies to both light and sound waves....

[Nyrath]

Re: Alien Wars: Before hyperdrive, there was...

 

Well' date=' friction is the cause nevertheless. Interstellar space is not as empty as it would seem- it has, indeed, a very, very, very, very thin "atmosphere" of hydrogen and other gases. That does not matter normally, but when moving at the speed of light...[/quote']

Again, more rain for your parade.

If the interstellar medium is dense enough to slow down a ship moving near lightspeed, from the reference frame of the ship the medium will appear to be a million-REM bombardment of cosmic rays. The crew would die instantly, and the ship would be gradually eroded away.

 

This is why Bussard ramjets have magnetic scoops.

 

I know it is tired and over-used, but for the effect you want it is hard to beat a momentary Wormhole.

[Basil]

Re: Alien Wars: Before hyperdrive, there was...

 

Suggestion: The Colony Act was actually some kind of political maneuver to achieve some completely different' date=' more day-to-day buisiness-like thing which is now long forgotten. "By accident", it was also a document that allowed for the legal concept of "more than one Senate world", because until then, there was only one world allowed to send senators, and that was Earth, of course. (For example, the real idea behind the Colony Act and a few related documents that in effect changed the UE's constitution could have been to install a new office: That of Earth's senator, who would have been quite powerful given the fact that he was the only one...no one of those who passed the Colony Act really believed that there could ever be a real "Senate" with many Senators.)[/quote']

 

That, and some other suggestions from this thread, could work. Thing is, why wasn't it covered in the history section of Alien Wars? If they're going to call The Colony Act so important to later events, why brush it off like they did?

[Basil]

Re: Alien Wars: Before hyperdrive, there was...

 

Now, one could assume the Colony Act created the concept "Senate Worlds", even though there weren't any, and also said they would be responsible for all colonizing efforts. That, however, raises the question of who/what is responsible for colonizing the "Senate Worlds".

 

Sorry, that won't fly.

The point is the Senate knew there were worlds to be colonized and so they passed the Colony Act before people began to be shipped to those worlds. The Senate wanted control of those worlds. The Earth Government allowed them to have the act because they knew it would take decades before many well-established colonies could be formed. As you said, at 0.5c you are looking at several years to get to Alpha Centauri alone, and there is supply, terraforming, etc. The Earth Government knew that it could all be settled at a later date. It was just a way of the Government getting something for free and then thinking they could fix it a century down the road to better suit them. Unfortunately a century later hyperdrives appeared and things got more complicated. Now they were not talking about 4 years to Alpha Centauri or Vega or where ever.

 

It would seem to make a lot of sense that the Senate would try to get the Colony Act passes before there were colonies. They wanted the control, and they got it, but they had to pay for it.

 

Again, a possible explanation. However, my original post, and what I've been trying to get people to consider, is that the book as written has a timeline that will not work unless either FTL existed before 2203, or The Colony Act was --- contrary to what is said --- passed by a "Senate" when there were no Senate Worlds.

 

Frankly, the errata for Alien Wars needs to correct the use of "Senate Worlds" on page 7; or at least point out that the Act as (first) written referred to "Senate Nations" (or whatever you want to call it), and was later amended/interpreted to refer to "Senate Worlds"

[Basil]

Re: Alien Wars: Before hyperdrive, there was...

 

It must be obvious. You' date=' yourself, just got through saying "[b']I'm sure the settlement of the Solar System will not, and reasonably could not, be done with rockets alone[/b]" so that must mean they used something else; something that will be described in Solar Hero no doubt.

 

You have taken what I said completely out of context. Here is the context restored:

But I would point out that the "better" chemical and fusion rockets in AW were not invented until 2253, 50 years later. It is obvious that there was something that allowed space travel between 2100-2200.

Is it obvious?

 

While I see no way the Solar System will be (in the future of the real world) settled solely by rockets, there is nothing obvious about extensive use of non-rockets in the invented 'history' given in Alien Wars. Indeed, there's no sign the author even knew of non-rocket, non-rubber-science STL drives that are, even now, known to be workable (some have even been experimented with).

 

Considering what is actually in the book, especially the fact that "Hyperdrive" provides no propulsion of its own (as described in the text), and that rockets are all that is mentioned, and I think it reasonable to ask whether there's anything "obvious" about non-rocket STL having been developed and then abandoned. Indeed, I can't believe in such a scenario.

[Basil]

Re: Alien Wars: Before hyperdrive, there was...

 

The fusion rocket of 2253 only gives a sustained speed of 570" per turn. That is a whopping 194 mph. I somehow think there is something between 194 mph and 1.2 LY per year.

 

Check out Star Hero; it has a method for treating "inches of Flight" as acceleration. Certainly, it's the only sensible method.

[Basil]

Re: Alien Wars: Before hyperdrive, there was...

 

Terran Empire page 158 clearly shows that fusion reactors were created in 2149. Page 58 of TE says that Mars was colonized in 2093. I've only had the books a week and have not completely read them' date=' so there might be more references I'm missing.[/quote']

Hey, I've had my copies less time than that.

Actually, I missed the bit about fusion reactors because I didn't think "small" necessarily meant "You can fit it in a ship, easy."

BTW, Mars' date is not on page 58. That's all about the Security Police, diplomats, and like that. It's page 68.

 

 

I see the Senate as seeing Mars colonized in 2093 by the Earth Government and decided if they wanted more control then they needed new laws passed quickly. 11 years later they finally got the colony act. Then they started to make their move by colonizing outlying systems; Alpha Centauri being first as it's the closest.

Um, OK, maybe I missed something else, but in 2104, what's "the Senate" if it's not Earth's government?

[Basil]

Re: Alien Wars: Before hyperdrive, there was...

 

Well' date=' friction is the cause nevertheless. Interstellar space is not as empty as it would seem- it has, indeed, a very, very, very, very thin "atmosphere" of hydrogen and other gases. That does not matter normally, but when moving at the speed of light...[/quote']

 

There is another, and surprising, mechanism for velocity loss in outer space. The interstellar gaseous medium is fairly ionized, that is, it is a plasma. Even that tenuous a plasma can be said to have a speed of sound. In our stellar "neighborhood", that speed is roughly 10,000 m/s. Any solid object going faster than that will cause a shock wave. In a plasma, that shockwave will accelerate electrons, causing synchrotron radiation.

 

If the object---or generation ship, to be specific---is not propelling itself (i.e., is not running its drive, but coasting), it will lose energy to the shockwave. That energy will be kinetic energy, and thus the ship will slow down.

 

Unfortunately, I have no info on how strong the deceleration will be, so I can't tell you if this will help Blue Jogger's scenario at all.

 

BTW, that ~10,000 m/s is ~3.3 * 10^-5 c. Which means getting to Alpha Centauri in mere centuries, instead of millennia, will require the drive to be running all the time you're in flight. At what level, I don't know; I hope at just-barely-on level, as the deceleration turns out to be minute, but still...

 

Oh, another thing; the ship's shockwave-caused synchrotron radiation has a non-thermal spectrum, and is strongly polarized; IOW it is highly distinctive. Should be detectable for a goodly distance. Which might be like waving a sign saying "Here we are!" to other spacefaring species. Which brings up a raft of story possibilities.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Alien Wars: Before hyperdrive, there was...

 

Oh' date=' another thing; the ship's shockwave-caused synchrotron radiation has a non-thermal spectrum, and is strongly polarized; IOW it is highly distinctive. Should be detectable for a goodly distance. Which might be like waving a sign saying "Here we are!" to other spacefaring species. Which brings up a [u']raft[/u] of story possibilities.

Hmmm...some good points there. There is one little thing I'd like to point out, though. The interstellar medium, on average, does not carry a charge (is not ionized). "Locally" (such a with a light-year or so of a star) it certainly is, but overall...nope. That's one reason the 21cm band is used for really long-range radio signal hunts.

 

I don't have the forumulas handy to figure out energy loss due to sync radiation, but my gut feeling is that while it might be enough to eventually slow a ship down, you'd be talking thousands (or hundreds of thousands) of years before you'd have a noticable drop in velocity.

[Southern Cross]

Re: Alien Wars: Before hyperdrive, there was...

 

That seems logical enough.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Alien Wars: Before hyperdrive, there was...

 

The fusion rocket of 2253 only gives a sustained speed of 570" per turn. That is a whopping 194 mph. I somehow think there is something between 194 mph and 1.2 LY per year.

I addressed this problem in my thread Pokey Starships? back in September. At the time I was mostly concerned with intrasystem speeds and how quickly one would move between planets. I see now it has implications on a much larger scale.

 

As I stated then, it's a bit disconcerting that a World War Two-era P-51 Mustang can blow the doors off Darth Vader's Tie Fighter.

 

I'd really like to see errata published to correct this problem. For the most point all it would require is Acceleration and/or Non-Combat Multiples over 124X.

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Alien Wars: Before hyperdrive, there was...

 

Uh' date=' I hate to rain on your parade, but by what mechanism is the excess velocity "bled off"? It's not like they're in an atmosphere where they'd loose velocity due to friction...[/quote']

 

(Hiding the big box labelled rubber science in the corner)

 

Well, you see, the excess velocity is not really velocity in the classic sense, it actually a spacetime distortion simular in nature to the FTL drives. In fact, the first prototype FTL drives were nothing more than a way to generate this effect in a controlled fashion. This distortion also appears to protect the ship from normal dust and radiation that would occur if it was actually just travelled normally much less acclerated, which is why some primitive ships surrive their journey. Also, had it been a classical acceleration, the crew would have been crushed by the several Gs acceleration, besides being fried by radiation and turned into swiss cheese by cosmic dust traveling at near light speed against the ship.

 

 

Well, what happens at the solar system then?

Upon reaching a non dark-matter gravity well, such as a solar system, the distortion collapses in a non-localized fashion. What does that mean? The net result, the ship is violently ejected into what is commonly called "normal space" as a gravametric shear tears through part of the ship and a corresponding gravametric crunch occurs on the opposite side.

 

If you are extremely lucky, the distortion wears off slowly and the transition to "normal space" is effortless, the velocity seems to be magically bled off, but this is probably actually very rare, I haven't worked out the math. Much more likely, you continue on and the distortion suddenly bursts much like a soap bubble would.

 

"Bouncing" is a lost art, back when the principles of dark matter and FTL were theories and people were much bolder than today. But we've spend enough time on it, perhaps we should return to the safer and more proven methods of FTL travel.

 

EDIT: Thanks for everyones' comments, I think Steve's idea of the gravitional riptide influnced this explanation. Unfortuately, "bouncing" might indeed have too much rubber science in it.