If AVLD, why not DVLA?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: If AVLD, why not DVLA?

 

I wouldn't allow 30 points for "all impact"' date=' but would "blunt instruments", meaning the kind that people hit you with that aren't bladed, the difference being that "impact" could include bullets and many other things, I fully admit it's fudgey. [/quote']

 

In fairness, anything requiring a determination of "narrow", "broad", etc. SFX is going to have a fudge factor. We can't objectively say how common any given SFX will be across campaigns and across all genres. Lasers in Fantasy Hero are pretty rare, but Star Hero will see a lot more of them.

 

I haven't worked out "All Physical"' date=' but I'm really thinking more and more now as you that just going to 120 point DR, requires SFX only basis[/quote']

 

On the other hand, we could also use the DR structure for a separate "Invulnerability" power. Perhaps 15 points = invuln to one narrow SFX (eg. clubs), 30 points becomes somewhat broader (eg. blunt weapons & fists), 60 points expands the field further (eg. all impact damage) and 120 covers off an entire area (eg. all PD attacks + all NND's that have a PD basis, like "rubber bullet" NND's).

 

Damage Reduction and Invulnerability meet at the top, with 120 for full resistance to one attack type.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: If AVLD, why not DVLA?

 

Perhaps 15 points = invuln to one narrow SFX (eg. clubs)' date=' 30 points becomes somewhat broader (eg. blunt weapons & fists), 60 points expands the field further (eg. all impact damage) and 120 covers off an entire area (eg. all PD attacks + all NND's that have a PD basis, like "rubber bullet" NND's).[/quote']

 

There are precedents for this in the existing game system, in the form of Weapon Familiarities and Missile Deflection. It seems a reasonable approach.

[zornwil]

Re: If AVLD, why not DVLA?

 

In fairness, anything requiring a determination of "narrow", "broad", etc. SFX is going to have a fudge factor. We can't objectively say how common any given SFX will be across campaigns and across all genres. Lasers in Fantasy Hero are pretty rare, but Star Hero will see a lot more of them.

 

 

 

On the other hand, we could also use the DR structure for a separate "Invulnerability" power. Perhaps 15 points = invuln to one narrow SFX (eg. clubs), 30 points becomes somewhat broader (eg. blunt weapons & fists), 60 points expands the field further (eg. all impact damage) and 120 covers off an entire area (eg. all PD attacks + all NND's that have a PD basis, like "rubber bullet" NND's).

 

Damage Reduction and Invulnerability meet at the top, with 120 for full resistance to one attack type.

I like that!

 

I think I'll go in that direction for house rules. I will accredit you, Hugh.

 

PS - this is the second time one of your suggestions has fit directly into my views strongly enough to incorporate, you raised the idea of the NND bar as being akin to the level one should require for EC. I created something I think is a bit too kludgy out of that whereas this will be simpler, nonetheless, kudos, and rep on the way.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: If AVLD, why not DVLA?

 

On the other hand' date=' we could also use the DR structure for a separate "Invulnerability" power. Perhaps 15 points = invuln to one narrow SFX (eg. clubs), 30 points becomes somewhat broader (eg. blunt weapons & fists), 60 points expands the field further (eg. all impact damage) and 120 covers off an entire area (eg. all PD attacks + all NND's that have a PD basis, like "rubber bullet" NND's).[/quote']

 

Man, that's a fantastic idea! Rep for you!

 

Y'know, you really ought to consider turning this into a short Digital Hero article...

 

[zornwil]

Re: If AVLD, why not DVLA?

 

Man' date=' that's a [i']fantastic[/i] idea! Rep for you!

 

Y'know, you really ought to consider turning this into a short Digital Hero article...

 

Agreed! I'm even happier because it fits my preexisting Invulnerability quite well and I can just throw it into my game, plus the scale-upwards actually will work better.

 

But I've already said that, I just wanted to chime in that Hugh should write the DH article!

[A.J.Gibson]

Re: If AVLD, why not DVLA?

 

On the other hand, we could also use the DR structure for a separate "Invulnerability" power. Perhaps 15 points = invuln to one narrow SFX (eg. clubs), 30 points becomes somewhat broader (eg. blunt weapons & fists), 60 points expands the field further (eg. all impact damage) and 120 covers off an entire area (eg. all PD attacks + all NND's that have a PD basis, like "rubber bullet" NND's).

 

So, if you take this new power for 'ranged attacks', add in 'Requires Activation Role' and a few other limitations, you get the Missile Deflection power, right? And the Life Support power could also fit under this, too.

[Tech]

Re: If AVLD, why not DVLA?

 

I remember reading that in Fantasy HERO. My main problem with it is that I have absolutely no intention of ever letting my players know in advance what the maximum amount of damage they are likely to encounter in my campaign is.

 

When I have needed an insurmountable defence against a limited type of attack in the past I have built it this way: Desolidification , Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Invisible Power Effects (Fully Invisible; +1) (120 Active Points); Only To Protect Against Limited Type of Attack (-1). Total Cost: 60 Points.

 

As it says on page 149 of 5ER (yes, all my page references will be 5ER from now on) "However, at the GM's option, a character with a limited form of Desolidification doesn't have to buy Affects Physical World; he can touch and affect the solid world automatically". As a GM I'm usually willing to take that option assuming the power is appropriate for the character and the type of attack it protects against is reasonably limited, because I don't think 60 points for total protection against a limited type of attack is unbalanced.

The biggest problem I've found with this is best summarized in an example:

 

Fireboy is made of living fire. The player decides Fireboy shouldn't be affected by fire and buys Desolid vs Fire as mentioned in the quote. Unfortunately, he runs across someone who has a fire EB, Affects Desolid. Yeah, you could say that the Desolid vs Fire overrules the EB, Affects Desolid but that's clunky and unfair to the person who paid extra points to affect desolid people.

 

Although I haven't used it, the 100% Damage Reduction vs fire (in this case) is better used. Giving the D.R. a -1 Limitation brings the cost to 60 pts, same as the Desolid vs X: 120/2=60 pts. Same cost, different results.

[zornwil]

Re: If AVLD, why not DVLA?

 

The biggest problem I've found with this is best summarized in an example:

 

Fireboy is made of living fire. The player decides Fireboy shouldn't be affected by fire and buys Desolid vs Fire as mentioned in the quote. Unfortunately, he runs across someone who has a fire EB, Affects Desolid. Yeah, you could say that the Desolid vs Fire overrules the EB, Affects Desolid but that's clunky and unfair to the person who paid extra points to affect desolid people.

 

Although I haven't used it, the 100% Damage Reduction vs fire (in this case) is better used. Giving the D.R. a -1 Limitation brings the cost to 60 pts, same as the Desolid vs X: 120/2=60 pts. Same cost, different results.

Although a person could just buy Penetrating to affect the 100% Damage Reduction character, just as a note. There's always a loophole!

 

And Mark's built is orthodox whereas 100% DR is a house rule - I'm not complaining about it as such, just stating the facts.

[Deadman]

Re: If AVLD, why not DVLA?

 

Forgive me if this has already been covered. I did not read the entire thread.

 

Has anyone addressed the possible additional effects of the damage?

 

The way I see it, a major difference between the Desolid school and the DR school is Knockback. With Desolid the attack is simply ignored, while with DR the attack hits and damage dice are rolled. If a person has 100% DR to the attack in question this does not necessarily mean that he is immune to the KB effects of the attack.

 

If Fireboy is hit with a fiery blast that does KB, does he still go flying?

 

If the answer is yes then you have to take a second look at DR. If no then Desolid is your solution.

 

Personally I like the way that DR works as opposed to Desolid. Damage Reduction reduces damage by its name and function, while Desolid implies intangibility.

 

I like the ideas that have been thrown around and I think that if the two schools come up with nearly the same active cost it would be pretty well balanced. If I used 100% DR in one of my games I would require at least a -1 limitation on the commonality of the attack.

 

Take it for what it is worth.

 

Deadman

[zornwil]

Re: If AVLD, why not DVLA?

 

Good point, Deadman. It's my opinion that Invulnerability to something normally doesn't counter Knockback - just because bullets can't hurt you doesn't mean the kinetic force won't push you back.

 

However, KB Resistance is cheap, and even cheaper if Limited for just certain SFX. I think it's cleaner to buy this DR-based Invul with KB Resistance.

[OddHat]

Re: If AVLD, why not DVLA?

 

Good point, Deadman. It's my opinion that Invulnerability to something normally doesn't counter Knockback - just because bullets can't hurt you doesn't mean the kinetic force won't push you back.

 

However, KB Resistance is cheap, and even cheaper if Limited for just certain SFX. I think it's cleaner to buy this DR-based Invul with KB Resistance.

 

And yet you have the case of Sundiving / flying through the storms of Saturn / etc. By the rules KB should be knocking you all over the place in those situations, yet Silver Age source material has cosmic heroes diving into them with few or no problems beyond a quick comment on having to adjust. Desolid is a perfetly valid method of achieving such an in-game effect with one power and one or two limits. I'm not taking anything away from your proposed house rule, but the official method works fine, and is in fact cleaner in cases where Invulnerability does include KB resistance.

[Guest bblackmoor]

Re: If AVLD, why not DVLA?

 

Forgive me if this has already been covered. I did not read the entire thread...

 

And yet you summed it up nicely. Rep for you.

[Deadman]

Re: If AVLD, why not DVLA?

 

And yet you have the case of Sundiving / flying through the storms of Saturn / etc. By the rules KB should be knocking you all over the place in those situations' date=' yet Silver Age source material has cosmic heroes diving into them with few or no problems beyond a quick comment on having to adjust. Desolid is a perfetly valid method of achieving such an in-game effect with one power and one or two limits. I'm not taking anything away from your proposed house rule, but the official method works fine, and is in fact cleaner in cases where Invulnerability does include KB resistance.[/quote']

 

This illustrates my point. If invulnerability imbues the character with total immunity to the attack (additional effects included), then use Desolid. If it does not protect the character from other effects of the damage (the kinetic force) then it seems that DR fits better. Both are viable options and relatively balanced. In the case of fire (the sun included) I think that the limitation "does no KB" on the attack would apply in many cases anyway. Since the attack relies on toasting flesh and does not apply a kinetic force per se.

 

Incidently, I currently use a combination of Armor, only vs. XX and DR 75

%, only vs. XX to simulate invulnerabiity. If Sundude was to get hit with a fiery RKA that did 25 Body and 125 Stun and had 25 ED Armor (plus his normal 20 resistant) and 75% Resistant DR he would take 20 Stun from the attack and No Body. I would consider the 20 Stun as the shock of the attack and incidental. Could he dive through the heart of a star? No, but he also is not a crispy critter. If you are playing at such a level that complete invulnerability is necessary (like flying into the sun). Then a little fudging with 100% DR shouldn't be too much of a stretch.

 

In either case (desolid or DR) you are bending the rules to allow for this type of Defense. Officially the rules state that if you are to use Desolid in the way that we have been speaking of, it is at the GM's option (not having to buy APW on all attacks). So I wouldn't confuse it with an "Official" way to buy this. Don't forget that Desolid is already a Stop Sign power, just as 100% DR should be.

 

It just seems to me that DR is less clunky. With Desolid you create an Intangible character that really isn't Intangible then say that his powers work vs. the physical world. DR just says that XX doesn't hurt him.

 

Now to open another can of worms, what if the attack is bought Penetrating x6? I only bought 1 level of Hardened on my DR.... Oh no!

 

I'm not trying to be argumentative just offering my opinion.

 

Deadman

[Deadman]

Re: If AVLD, why not DVLA?

 

And yet you summed it up nicely. Rep for you.

 

Thanks, that would be my first! You would think that a guy who has been playing this game since '81 would have more than 10 posts anyway.

[zornwil]

Re: If AVLD, why not DVLA?

 

And yet you have the case of Sundiving / flying through the storms of Saturn / etc. By the rules KB should be knocking you all over the place in those situations' date=' yet Silver Age source material has cosmic heroes diving into them with few or no problems beyond a quick comment on having to adjust. Desolid is a perfetly valid method of achieving such an in-game effect with one power and one or two limits. I'm not taking anything away from your proposed house rule, but the official method works fine, and is in fact cleaner in cases where Invulnerability does include KB resistance.[/quote']

Just buy Environmental Movement, I'd say.

 

PS - also, does any GM really judge KB if you're on the "inside" of a "blast", such as a furnace and the like? How can you be KBed within something when pressure is equal on all sides?

 

PPS - also, I think this is a relatively narrow example and of these cases, how many even have an actual invulnerability as opposed to some vaguely-defined "cosmic" powers? Don't the (as in Marvel's) Captain Marvel and Green Lantern types and such actually not have any specific invulnerabilities but rather the ability to simply move through things with the aid of their rings and general toughness? This is more of a question/request for examples as opposed to saying you're wrong on this, I'm not clear on the source material in these cases in the way you're representing it.

[zornwil]

Re: If AVLD, why not DVLA?

 

This illustrates my point. If invulnerability imbues the character with total immunity to the attack (additional effects included)' date=' then use Desolid. [/quote']

 

In my response to OddHat, I don't mean to discount the approach, you raise a good point. Conceptually, I certainly can't disagree, bearing in mind...

 

In either case (desolid or DR) you are bending the rules to allow for this type of Defense.

 

...that!

 

Yeah, I think an open question remains whether HERO should allow explicitly for Invulnerability, though I think if they are opening the can of worms as they have with Desol, they need to build something more specific/meaningful at least similar to what's been discussed with DR/some version thereof/something new or specific/refining Desolid or a 5-page discussion in that entry as Transform is becoming...

 

Now to open another can of worms, what if the attack is bought Penetrating x6? I only bought 1 level of Hardened on my DR.... Oh no!

 

My house rule is DR still works against Penetrating, personally.

 

I'm not trying to be argumentative just offering my opinion.

 

Deadman

 

I certainly didn't take anything you said as argumentative and I hope no one is taking my points to be either. So far no one here is being argumentative, I think. Or if I'm being argumentative, it's in a "not trying to knock you down but discuss the alternatives" way.

[OddHat]

Re: If AVLD, why not DVLA?

 

In either case (desolid or DR) you are bending the rules to allow for this type of Defense. Officially the rules state that if you are to use Desolid in the way that we have been speaking of, it is at the GM's option (not having to buy APW on all attacks). So I wouldn't confuse it with an "Official" way to buy this. Don't forget that Desolid is already a Stop Sign power, just as 100% DR should be.

 

I never suggested allowing APW for free; I don't in my campaigns, and I've got several characters running around with desolid as one or another type of Invulnerability. The "allows APW for free" bit is GM's call; Desolid as Invulnerability is just a special effect. It has the bonus of being used in published characters and in-book examples. That is as official as it gets.

[OddHat]

Re: If AVLD, why not DVLA?

 

In my response to OddHat, I don't mean to discount the approach, you raise a good point. Conceptually, I certainly can't disagree, bearing in mind...

 

 

 

...that!

 

Desolid as Invulnerability is not bending the rules if APW is not allowed for free.

[Deadman]

Re: If AVLD, why not DVLA?

 

On the other hand, we could also use the DR structure for a separate "Invulnerability" power. Perhaps 15 points = invuln to one narrow SFX (eg. clubs), 30 points becomes somewhat broader (eg. blunt weapons & fists), 60 points expands the field further (eg. all impact damage) and 120 covers off an entire area (eg. all PD attacks + all NND's that have a PD basis, like "rubber bullet" NND's).

 

Damage Reduction and Invulnerability meet at the top, with 120 for full resistance to one attack type.

That works great! You could also make it complete immunity, with regard to say, Knockback, by default and add a limitation that removes that protection.

 

Someone else suggested that Missile Deflection could be a derived power of Invulnerability. If I may take a shot...

 

Missile Deflection - Invulnerability to All Physical Ranged attacks (60 Active Points) RSR: OCV vs. OCV, -2 Per Additional Missile (-1/2), Only if Aware of Attack (-1/2), Nonpersistant (-1/4), Only vs. Direct Attacks (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4) Total Cost=20pts.

 

Not too far off with regard to the Real Cost but adding Ranged Energy Attacks would double the cost. There should also be a way to Reflect the attack. Maybe an adder or inherent Advantage. Another problem would be deflecting attacks aimed at others, though I suspect that Usable On Others could be added in to facilitate this.

 

Anyway, what do you think?

 

Deadman

[Deadman]

Re: If AVLD, why not DVLA?

 

I never suggested allowing APW for free; I don't in my campaigns' date=' and I've got several characters running around with desolid as one or another type of Invulnerability. The "allows APW for free" bit is GM's call; Desolid as Invulnerability is just a special effect. It has the bonus of being used in published characters and in-book examples. That is as official as it gets.[/quote']

No argument there, it becomes, as you said, a special effect. My comment was directed at the GM's optional component of dismissing the APW requirement that was brought up (not necessarily by you).

 

Sorry if I wasn't clear.

 

Deadman

[zornwil]

Re: If AVLD, why not DVLA?

 

Desolid as Invulnerability is not bending the rules if APW is not allowed for free.

As discussed prior, some of us think there is other bending involved or as referenced under the rules in play "officially".

[zornwil]

Re: If AVLD, why not DVLA?

 

That works great! You could also make it complete immunity, with regard to say, Knockback, by default and add a limitation that removes that protection.

 

Someone else suggested that Missile Deflection could be a derived power of Invulnerability. If I may take a shot...

 

Missile Deflection - Invulnerability to All Physical Ranged attacks (60 Active Points) RSR: OCV vs. OCV, -2 Per Additional Missile (-1/2), Only if Aware of Attack (-1/2), Nonpersistant (-1/4), Only vs. Direct Attacks (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4) Total Cost=20pts.

 

Not too far off with regard to the Real Cost but adding Ranged Energy Attacks would double the cost. There should also be a way to Reflect the attack. Maybe an adder or inherent Advantage. Another problem would be deflecting attacks aimed at others, though I suspect that Usable On Others could be added in to facilitate this.

 

Anyway, what do you think?

 

Deadman

I think it's an interesting/reasonable construct, but I would tend to think that Deflection has enough of its own consequences and attributes I'd keep it separate.

[OddHat]

Re: If AVLD, why not DVLA?

 

No argument there, it becomes, as you said, a special effect. My comment was directed at the GM's optional component of dismissing the APW requirement that was brought up (not necessarily by you).

 

Sorry if I wasn't clear.

 

Deadman

 

No worries, and any use of APW is certainly going to require a very careful look from the GM.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: If AVLD, why not DVLA?

 

That works great! You could also make it complete immunity' date=' with regard to say, Knockback, by default and add a limitation that removes that protection.[/quote']

 

This approach could be used, or the power could have an adder or advantage for "No Knockback" being added in. One way or another, if we're looking for comnplete invulnerability, I'd like to see both the "Still knocked back" and "not knocked back" versions available. I think it should likely be an adder or advantage. Since not all campaigns use knockback, I prefer not to include it in the default price (since "does not reduce knockback" seems very "unlimiting" in games that have no knockback anyway).

 

Buying KB resistance, as others have suggested, is workable, but if we're taking the approach that absolute invulnerability is needed (ie limited Armor doesn't cut it), the same logic should reasonably apply to allow unlimited resistance to Knockback.

 

Hmmm... we probably need to allow a similar structure for Knock back alone. Maybe 80 points = No Knockback from Any Attack, 40 points is for a broad base of attacks like All Energy, 20 points for a narrower group like All ice/cold Attacks and 10 points for a very narrow group, like Ice Attacks Only.

 

Costing based on Damage Reduction, but non-resistant this time. 80 points = enough KB resistance to be functionally immune anyway, so the cost feels right.

[JMcL63]

Re: If AVLD, why not DVLA?

 

I've been reading my way through this thread, and I've seen that the discussion has focussed entirely on the issue of immunity to damage. I have to say that I tend to agree with those who don't like the idea of a special immunity power (howsoever it is defined), and who prefer a practical immunity that can be overcome by a sufficiently powerful attack. I mean, it's one thing to say that a dragon (to use an example common in this thread) is effectively immune to any attack you can normally expect to be thrown at it (by PC's or most NPC's too); it's another to say that this same dragon is immune to absolutely any attack of that kind. That is to say: things that are functionally immune to PC's can still be vulnerable to attacks of that kind from creatures more powerful than themselves (but, at the power levels we are talking about here, this vulnerability is unlikely even to reach the level of being liable to stunning, unless the more powerful creature is much, much more powerful- ie. approaching godlike, in which case the whole matter does indeed boil down to GM's judgement IMO).

 

I'm also in favour of working out such powers in detail because the modifiers (ie. limitations) applied to such attacks are the basis of PC's hopes of undermining these otherwise overwhelming defensive powers.

 

But all of that's just my take on the immunity issue.

 

What I originally thought was most interesting about the DVLA idea was the notion of 'inverting' the AVLD advantage to apply it to defences. I'm still not sure if this is actually viable, but what I liked about the idea in the first place was the notion of finding an appropriate form- for a defensive advantage- of this offensive advantage. This is something that has not been considered in this thread so far.

 

So that's my point here: if you were 'inverting' AVLD to become a similar advantage to apply to defences- but without using it to create an outright immunity- what would you be doing?