Damage

[Sean Waters]

What should the range of damage (in Hero terms) for a nuclear bomb be, in your expert opinion?

[Trebuchet]

Re: Damage

 

What should the range of damage (in Hero terms) for a nuclear bomb be' date=' in your expert opinion?[/quote']20d6 RKA EX for a tactical nuke, bigger ones could hit 30 or 40d6. Some NND Does Body effects might be appropriate for representing radiation effects.

[TaxiMan]

Re: Damage

 

What Trebuchet said. However...

 

"What effect do you want the nuclear bomb to have in your campaign?"

[Trebuchet]

Re: Damage

 

Like the Death Star, nukes are generally plot devices rather than actual attacks.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Damage

 

I think that is far too much damage, personally. I think we undersell how powerful characters in Hero can become. I reckon that a bomb the size of the Hiroshima device should be as little as 12d6+1 killing, and the largest nuclear bombs, like the Castle/Bravo device only in the region of 16d6 killing.

 

That's enough to vaporise any material in the Hero universe at ground zero, and (with megascale) quite a way out, why use more?

[RDU Neil]

Re: Damage

 

20d6 RKA EX for a tactical nuke' date=' bigger ones could hit 30 or 40d6. Some NND Does Body effects might be appropriate for representing radiation effects.[/quote']

 

Probably some expanded explosion radius (whatever that is called) so that the bomb covers more than 120 meter radius.

 

Also, a concussion wave... say 40d6 physical explosion, with the increased radius as well.

 

I did hit a major brick with small nuke once. He was shielded from the radiation/heat, but the concussion caught him fully. He lived... but the big issue was finding him... as I'd added in some increased knockback, and he went flying! Woke up in a bacta-tank like thing in a PRIMUS base. Had fresh pink skin everywhere, cause he landed in the desert and scraped himself pretty raw.

 

Heh... I remember now that next adventure he ended up in the Mediterranean, and got his new skin REALLY badly sunburned. Extra d6 of NND stun damage every time he got hit! It was really funny, as that was the only thing damaging him for the most part... but he was running around the whole fight... "OW OW OW OW OW !!!"

[Trebuchet]

Re: Damage

 

I think that is far too much damage, personally. I think we undersell how powerful characters in Hero can become. I reckon that a bomb the size of the Hiroshima device should be as little as 12d6+1 killing, and the largest nuclear bombs, like the Castle/Bravo device only in the region of 16d6 killing.

 

That's enough to vaporise any material in the Hero universe at ground zero, and (with megascale) quite a way out, why use more?

12d6+1 certainly won't vaporize a modern tank with 20 rPD and 19 BODY: 12 x 3.5 = 42; 42 - 20 = 22. That leaves IIRC an M1 Abrams tank with -3 body. That's certainly not vaporized. Nor do I think nukes are most accurately modeled with Megascale, but rather with EXplosive.

 

If you already knew the answer, why did you ask the question?

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Damage

 

I generally operate on the 'Anything within a nuclear blast is either atomized or blown into a parallel dimension' theory. If the radiation KA doesn't get you, the shockwave or the heat will ... for a 'true' nuke (military-grade nuclear warhead). For a suitcase-nuke or a homebrewed nuke that roughly slaps two chunks of plutonium together to see what happens, I operate around 10d6 KA for the blast proper, 30d6 Energy (Normal) for heat, 30d6 Physical Normal for shockwave.

 

Still plenty lethal.

[Old Man]

Re: Damage

 

Just to be an aggravating git I guess

 

Or he just wanted to see if he modeled them right in his game?

[tracer]

Nor do I think nukes are most accurately modeled with Megascale' date=' but rather with EXplosive.[/quote']

By "EXplosive" here, I assume you mean an Explosion Effect attack with several levels of Double Radius bought for it, right?

 

Personally, I think combining Explosion Effect with one level of Megascale will do the job just fine, and cost a lot less. The blast radius for an Explosion Effect 12d6+1 Killing Attack is going to be 37 hexes, so with 1 level of Megascale that means everything within 37 kilometers of Ground Zero will take at least some damage.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Damage

 

Just to be an aggravating git I guess

 

Or he just wanted to see if he modeled them right in his game?

 

Now you're just being unpleasant without contributing anything.

 

If you apply damage per hex the Abrhams will vapourise.

 

I don't see why megascale is less appropriate than basic explosion (I'd build it with a MS Ex: maybe 1 hex is 10 to 20 m

[Trebuchet]

Re: Damage

 

By "EXplosive" here, I assume you mean an Explosion Effect attack with several levels of Double Radius bought for it, right?

 

Personally, I think combining Explosion Effect with one level of Megascale will do the job just fine, and cost a lot less. The blast radius for an Explosion Effect 12d6+1 Killing Attack is going to be 37 hexes, so with 1 level of Megascale that means everything within 37 kilometers of Ground Zero will take at least some damage.

Yes, but real nukes don't have Megascale. They just do hellacious damage in an explosive fashion. There is nothing magical about nukes; they're just a very powerful and efficient explosive. To me a 50d6 RKA EX would not be out of line, although those who consider Hero's damage scale to be logarithmic would disagree. The doublings make more sense to me than Megascale, although I agree that blast effects, radiation, and the heat pulse could all be bought as linked attacks along with the RKA.

 

37 km is 22.9 miles, which does not seem unreasonable for a BIG nuke. It's a bit much for a dinky Hiroshima-type nuke. See Richard Rhodes' excellent book The Making of the Atomic Bomb for extensive info on the damage. This website also has info on nuclear weapons damage.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Damage

 

Hero's strength scale is logarithmic: why shouldn't the damage scale be? If you can lift twice as much with 105 strength than 100, you can apply twice the force with your punch.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Damage

 

Yes, but real nukes don't have Megascale. They just do hellacious damage in an explosive fashion. There is nothing magical about nukes; they're just a very powerful and efficient explosive. To me a 50d6 RKA EX would not be out of line, although those who consider Hero's damage scale to be logarithmic would disagree. The doublings make more sense to me than Megascale, although I agree that blast effects, radiation, and the heat pulse could all be bought as linked attacks along with the RKA.

 

37 km is 22.9 miles, which does not seem unreasonable for a BIG nuke. It's a bit much for a dinky Hiroshima-type nuke. See Richard Rhodes' excellent book The Making of the Atomic Bomb for extensive info on the damage. This website also has info on nuclear weapons damage.

 

Aren't you going to need megascale? A 100d6 killing attack explosion has 300 damage classes, so only does damage out to 300 hexes, or 600 metres.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Damage

 

Hero's strength scale is logarithmic: why shouldn't the damage scale be? If you can lift twice as much with 105 strength than 100' date=' you can apply twice the force with your punch.[/quote']Well, to begin with you can't jump twice as far or throw things twice as far for each +5 STR. The lifting ability is actually the only thing in the system that doubles. So it doesn't automatically follow that 21d6 is twice as powerful as 20d6.

 

Also, if you'll examine the Explosives chart on page 333 of FREd, you'll see that while 1 stick of dynamite does 5d6 and 2 sticks does 6d6 (and therefore appears at first glance to be logarithmic), you'll see that 4 sticks does 8d6. That's not logarithmic progression, it's arithmetic progression. This issue is not as cut and dried as many seem to think. It would be more accurate to say that 21d6 is more powerful than 20d6. How much more powerful, you ask? 1d6 more powerful.

 

Woot! 5000 posts!

[Sean Waters]

Re: Damage

 

Looking at Trubuchet's references, a 'big' nuke, 15 megatons, the equivalent of the biggest nuke tested, would have a 50% fatality out to 37 km! A 'dinky' Nagasaki nuke would have a 50% kill radius of nearly 2km and a vaporisation crater of nearly 100m.

 

I guess in Hero terms that means at the 50% kill radius you'd have to be doing at least 4 Body average.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Damage

 

Aren't you going to need megascale? A 100d6 killing attack explosion has 300 damage classes' date=' so only does damage out to 300 hexes, or 600 metres.[/quote']I've already conceded that multiple levels of damage falloff will be necessary for the EX. -1d6 per 10" or 20" would seem reasonable.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Damage

 

Looking at Trubuchet's references, a 'big' nuke, 15 megatons, the equivalent of the biggest nuke tested, would have a 50% fatality out to 37 km! A 'dinky' Nagasaki nuke would have a 50% kill radius of nearly 2km and a vaporisation crater of nearly 100m.

 

I guess in Hero terms that means at the 50% kill radius you'd have to be doing at least 4 Body average.

These are not toys. I think most people have very little idea of how horrific nuclear and thermonuclear weapons really are on a human scale. Why do you think our leaders quite sensibly fear a nuclear terrorist incident? I believe the Soviets tested a 100 megaton hydrogen bomb, but I don't think they ever deployed them as weapons.

 

Actually, it would mean that at the 50% kill radius you'd be doing about 6 - 8 BODY. 50% of people within that radius will die, which would include children and other normals with less than 8 BODY. Drop below 0 BODY and it's all over because there'll be no one to apply first aid.

[Just A Guy Name]

Re: Damage

 

..I believe the Soviets tested a 100 megaton hydrogen bomb' date=' but I don't think they ever deployed them as weapons.[/quote']The "Tsar Bomb" had a designed yield of 100 mt, but due to physical constraints, the only test device detonated had one of the stages eliminated, so that the effective yield was only ( ) ~50 mt. Here's a link with more details.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Damage

 

The "Tsar Bomb" had a designed yield of 100 mt' date=' but due to physical constraints, the only test device detonated had one of the stages eliminated, so that the effective yield was only ( ) ~50 mt. Here's a link with more details.

Excellent.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Damage

 

I was thinking about this because of the tsunami event in Indonesia and surrounding areas. An earthquake of Richter scale magnitude 7 exceeds the energy of the largest nuke tested: a 7.5 even exceeds the 'Tsar bomb'.

 

http://www.seismo.unr.edu/ftp/pub/louie/class/100/magnitude.html

 

This one was 8.7 or thereabouts, which is more than an order of magnitude greater than the Tsar Bomb's theoretical yield. The death toll in Indonesia is over 27000 and climbing as more bodies are found. People died thousands of miles from the epicentre. In deep water, a tsunami wave can travel at over 800kmph. The wave was about 30-35 feet high. The largest tsunami wave recorded was over 1700 feet high (no, not a misprint: higher than the world's tallest building), although that one was a bit of a freak because of the circumstances and where it occurred.

 

The Indonesian tsunami is a disaster on a scale that beggars the imagination. If there is a God or any Gods listening in, do your best, eh?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Damage

 

Why do you think our leaders quite sensibly fear a nuclear terrorist incident?

 

 

Because they have engendered an atmosphere of mistrust and hatred where something so unthinkable may actually be being considered?

[Trebuchet]

Re: Damage

 

I was thinking about this because of the tsunami event in Indonesia and surrounding areas. An earthquake of Richter scale magnitude 7 exceeds the energy of the largest nuke tested: a 7.5 even exceeds the 'Tsar bomb'.

 

http://www.seismo.unr.edu/ftp/pub/louie/class/100/magnitude.html

 

This one was 8.7 or thereabouts, which is more than an order of magnitude greater than the Tsar Bomb's theoretical yield. The death toll in Indonesia is over 27000 and climbing as more bodies are found. People died thousands of miles from the epicentre. In deep water, a tsunami wave can travel at over 800kmph. The wave was about 30-35 feet high. The largest tsunami wave recorded was over 1700 feet high (no, not a misprint: higher than the world's tallest building), although that one was a bit of a freak because of the circumstances and where it occurred.

 

The Indonesian tsunami is a disaster on a scale that beggars the imagination. If there is a God or any Gods listening in, do your best, eh?

I heard on the radio this afternoon that the 9.0 quake Christmas day released 23,000 times more energy than the Hiroshima bomb of 12 kilotons. I'm not sure if that's accurate, but consider it moved the entire nation of Sumatra 100 feet.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Damage

 

Because they have engendered an atmosphere of mistrust and hatred where something so unthinkable may actually be being considered?

Can we please keep the political editorializing on the NGD boards?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Damage

 

Can we please keep the political editorializing on the NGD boards?

 

You asked the, not entirely uneditorialised, question...