Damage

[Sean Waters]

Re: Damage

 

A Richter 12 would crack the earth, but is equivalent to the amount of energy the planet receives from the sun every day, the equivalent of 160 TRILLION tons of TNT. Makes you think....

[Trebuchet]

Re: Damage

 

You asked the' date=' not entirely uneditorialised, question...[/quote']My comment was within the context of a general discussion of why nuclear weapons are to be feared, particularly in the hands of terrorists who lack either morality or capitals to retaliate against unlike the former Soviet Union or China. I do not wish to rehash the same tired argument here. If you truly feel it necessary to do so, then I'll withdraw from this thread so you may do so.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Damage

 

My comment was within the context of a general discussion of why nuclear weapons are to be feared' date=' particularly in the hands of terrorists who lack either morality or capitals to retaliate against unlike the former Soviet Union or China. I do not wish to rehash the same tired argument here. If you truly feel it necessary to do so, then I'll withdraw from this thread so you may do so.[/quote']

 

Now you are attributing unwarranted motives to me. For shame. I wouldn't want anyone excluded from a thread, voluntarily or otherwise, no matter what their views or opinions may be.

 

Here's some (relatively) safe and appropriate ground, and I think you already touched on it...this house believes the damage scale in Hero should work on a logarithmic progression, like lifting mass for strength does. Discuss.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Damage

 

Here's some (relatively) safe and appropriate ground' date=' and I think you already touched on it...this house believes the damage scale in Hero should work on a logarithmic progression, like lifting mass for strength does. Discuss.[/quote']Why do you think the damage chart should be logarithmic? Wouldn't it make just as much sense to bring the lifting table in line with the explosives and throwing charts? (I think I know why Champion's original designers worked out the lifting scale as they did: Because otherwise no 250 point character could lift tanks and other heavy objects routinely lifted in the comics.) Throwing would seem to me a much better scale for hitting power than lifting, since energy from velocity and strength would be similar for both. Or are you advocating increasing leaping and throwing distances to bring them in line with lifting? (Perhaps heavy lifting and throwing should have been a separate strength-based power like Leaping?)

 

My general problem with doubled energy each +1d6 is that it doesn't take many levels to get to absolutely ludicrous levels of energy. Energy is energy. If a brick with 70 STR can slam a tank and punch through it's side armor, then so can a martial artist with the same number of dice. Martial artists who can do 14d6 Offensive Strikes are pretty common in my experience. In which case either those MAs are tremendously overpowered, or agents are much too tough. On the other hand, if each +1d6 represents an arithmetic progression then this allows for much more accurate scaling.

 

I think the problem arises in Champions because players want their 75 STR bricks to do Superman-level stunts, and don't realize that in Champions Superman probably has 150-250 STR depending on when in his career you look at. I don't have any problem having Superman doing 50d6 when he hits at full power; his blows should be on the order of a nuclear weapon in energy delivered. A 50d6 punch equates to a 16½d6 HKA: The DC level of a smallish nuclear explosion.

[Warp9]

Re: Damage

 

Here's some (relatively) safe and appropriate ground, and I think you already touched on it...this house believes the damage scale in Hero should work on a logarithmic progression, like lifting mass for strength does. Discuss.

Before rehashing this discussion, I'd suggest looking at following thread. . . .

 

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5054&page=2&pp=15#post82575

 

 

 

 

Well, to begin with you can't jump twice as far or throw things twice as far for each +5 STR. The lifting ability is actually the only thing in the system that doubles. So it doesn't automatically follow that 21d6 is twice as powerful as 20d6.

 

Also, if you'll examine the Explosives chart on page 333 of FREd, you'll see that while 1 stick of dynamite does 5d6 and 2 sticks does 6d6 (and therefore appears at first glance to be logarithmic), you'll see that 4 sticks does 8d6. That's not logarithmic progression, it's arithmetic progression. This issue is not as cut and dried as many seem to think. It would be more accurate to say that 21d6 is more powerful than 20d6. How much more powerful, you ask? 1d6 more powerful.

 

I've argued the exponential side (as you know from the thread listed above), but I can also agree that there is an argument to be made for the linear approach as well. And you've made some good points here.

 

The only point I specifically disagree with in your statement above is the part where you state: "The lifting ability is actually the only thing in the system that doubles." There are many examples of linear progression, but there are also a number of examples of exponential progression besides lifting.

[zornwil]

Re: Damage

 

I have a morbid fascination here, the nuclear bomb discussion tends to be one of those never-ending and ultimately acriminious ones in HERO.

 

I will just add one point, one which I repeat as that Roman Senator did "Carthage must be destroyed!", and my point is that this game is intended to simulate HEROIC FICTION.

 

Do not pretend it will elegantly or well represent a true nuclear strike and all the various effects. Early on the comment was made "model as you want in YOUR campaign world" and that is important, although I can see expanding on that to come up with a "generic" Champions or Dark Champions answer (hint: I bet those two have different answers).

 

PS - well, that came across as condescending...I'll just admit that rather than wrestle with rewording it. I was indeed on my high horse...

[Oruncrest]

Re: Damage

 

Ah, Nukes. I remember the last time I got involved in such an arguement, back when Nato was volunteering some boardspace while HERO Games got these boards set up. The last thing I posted on those boards was an alternate writeup of the 1 megaton nuke Steve Long wrote up for HERO System Almanac II. I don't think anybody noticed and I've let the writeup lay follow...

 

...Until now.

 

1Megaton Tactical Nuclead Explosive

One last Note; the Shockwave is written up a little... oddly to show damage falling off differently than in a normal explosion. Damage by distance (from the center) is taken in this fashion:

Distance Damage

Up to 2km 14d6

2km - 3km 13d6

3km - 4km 12d6

4km - 5km 11d6

5km - 7km 9d6

7km - 8km 8d6

8km - 9km 7d6

9km - 11km 6d6

11km - 14km 3d6

14km - 15km 1d6

 

Have fun.

 

Cost Powers

405 Nuclear Explosion Effects; Trigger: +¼; OAF: -1; Mobility: Bulky, -½; Charge never recovers & destroys Bomb: -2; No Range: -½

(39) Radiation Burst 6d6 RKA; AE (Radius): +1; Megascale (1 Mile): +¼; AVLD (Power Defense): +1½; Affects Desolid: +¼; IPE: Two Sense Groups, +¾; No STUN: -¾; Gradual Effect: Almost Completely, -2; Charges: 1, -½; Continuing Charges: 1 Hour, -5 lev; Charge Never Recovers: -2; No KB: -¼; Only vs living characters: -½

(60) Flash 9d6 Transform (Major, Single Object); Affects Desolid: +½; AE (Radius) +1¾; Megascale (108 km/ 67.5mi): +¼; AVLD (Flash Defense): +1½; All or Nothing: -½; Charges: 1, -1½; Continuing Charges: Extra Phase, -1 lev; Only ¼ as effective in daylight: -1

(81) Fireball: 13d6-1 RKA; Explosion (Extended Area +1"/DC): +¾; Megascale (-1D6 / 2km): +¼; Indirect (Attacks all parts of objects): +¾; Charges: 1, -1½; Continuing Charges: Extra Phase, -1 lev

(36) EMP: 6d6 RKA; AE (Radius):+1¼; Megascale (18 Km): +¼; IPE: To All Senses, +1; No KB: -¼; Only affects Electrical Ciruitry: Half, -1; Charges: 1, -2

(81) Shockwave; Indirect (Attacks all parts of objects): +¾; Charges: 1, -1¼; Extra Time (next segment): -½; Requires an Atmosphere: -½; Does 1/25th damage vs. soft, maleable objects: -1

[27] 5d6 Killing Attack (RKA); Explosion (Extended Area +2"/DC): +1; Megascale (km): +¼

[23] 4d6 Killing Attack (RKA); Explosion (Extended Area +3"/DC): +1¼; Megascale (km): +¼

[18] 3d6 Killing Attack (RKA); Explosion (Extended Area +4"/DC): +1½; Megascale (km): +¼

[13] 2d6 Killing Attack (RKA); Explosion (Extended Area +5"/DC): +1¾; Megascale (km): +¼

(85) Pressure Wave 14d6 RKA; Double KB: +¾; AE (Radius): +1; Megascale (21 km): +¼; Charges: 1, -2; Extra Time (next segment): -½; Gradual Effect (1 Turn): -¼; Requires an Atmosphere: -½;

(21) Negative Pressure 10d6 EB; AE (Radius) +1½; Megascale (20 km): +¼; Double KB: +¾; Charges: 1, -1¼; Extra Time: 1 turn, -1¼; Gradual Effect (1 Turn): -¼; Requires an Atmosphere: -½;

 

Now, what would this do to a M1 Abrahms tank (from FREd) & its crew (who had the horrible misfortune to be within 1 klick of the explosion)? Assuming average rolls:

The radiation would kill the crew. Unfortunately it might take it's time doing that. Let's hope the rest of the blast kills them sooner.

The crew lucked out against the Flash. The tank's anti-glare shields protected them.

The tank's out of luck against the EMP as it takes just 1 BODY to knock out its electronics.

The Fireball slags the poor tank. The front was facing the explosion so it got the benefit of it's 20 DEF. But it still took 25 BODY. The crew forunately got an extra 19 pts of protection from the tank, but still took 10 BODY from the Heat flash (the equivalent of 2nd degree burns) and 84 STUN. At least they won't feel the later effects.

The Shockwave comes 1 segment later and turns the slagged tank (it now takes 49 BODY) into free-floating slagged parts. Then the Pressure Wave turns it (and the crew) into free-flying parts. Naturally, the first thing that hits the crew is what's left of the tank (since the tank took all its BODY a segment ago and can't protect them anymore). They're now down to -49 BODY. Bye-bye crew. No one will be able to recognize (what's left of) your remains when you land, 'cause they were turned into bloody smears on the ground when you finally land (and take 17 BODY from the landing).

One turn later, the Tank & Crew take another 45 BODY from the Fireball, and then the Negative Pressure fills up the vacuum from the Pressure Wave, and essentially pours dirt on the poor crew's wounds by pulling any loose dirt and ashes over their bloodstains (it also did 12 BODY to them as well and then drags said stains for another 6 BODY, but I feel like such a meanie for pointing this out).

 

When it's all said & done, the tank took 180 BODY. The crew took 129.

[Warp9]

Re: Damage

 

Why do you think the damage chart should be logarithmic? Wouldn't it make just as much sense to bring the lifting table in line with the explosives and throwing charts? (I think I know why Champion's original designers worked out the lifting scale as they did: Because otherwise no 250 point character could lift tanks and other heavy objects routinely lifted in the comics.) Throwing would seem to me a much better scale for hitting power than lifting, since energy from velocity and strength would be similar for both. Or are you advocating increasing leaping and throwing distances to bring them in line with lifting? (Perhaps heavy lifting and throwing should have been a separate strength-based power like Leaping?)

 

My general problem with doubled energy each +1d6 is that it doesn't take many levels to get to absolutely ludicrous levels of energy. Energy is energy. If a brick with 70 STR can slam a tank and punch through it's side armor, then so can a martial artist with the same number of dice. Martial artists who can do 14d6 Offensive Strikes are pretty common in my experience. In which case either those MAs are tremendously overpowered, or agents are much too tough. On the other hand, if each +1d6 represents an arithmetic progression then this allows for much more accurate scaling.

 

I think the problem arises in Champions because players want their 75 STR bricks to do Superman-level stunts, and don't realize that in Champions Superman probably has 150-250 STR depending on when in his career you look at. I don't have any problem having Superman doing 50d6 when he hits at full power; his blows should be on the order of a nuclear weapon in energy delivered. A 50d6 punch equates to a 16½d6 HKA: The DC level of a smallish nuclear explosion.

 

I can agree that there are some advantages to changing the progression a bit. With X2 per +5 points it is easy to get "absolutely ludicrous levels of energy."

 

The problem with bringing the lifting in-line with the throwing is that in order to have a character who can lift a tank (current STR 55 task) you'd need a 5,000 STR.

 

 

I would suggest the concept of maybe changing the progression of lift to X2 per +10 points (and you'd probably want to change the gun charts as well to reflect this new standard, guns would now progress at +2DC per doubling of KE).

 

If you doubled with every 10 points, (and assuming that a person with 10 STR still lifted the same amount) then lifting a tank would go from a 55 STR feat to a 100 STR feat.

 

 

Or you could even go with a X2 per +15 points, then lifting a tank would require a minimum of 145 STR.

 

Note: the above statements should not be taken to mean that Hero is broken, or that the idea of "X2 per +5" is wrong. I'm just speculating about other possible ways to do things.

 

 

 

In any case, I think we can both agree that there is a problem with having 2 different standards for progression. Either the lifting should be brought in line with the throwing, or vice versa.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Damage

 

Thank you Warp 9, reading that thread probably saved a lot of time! I'm convinced now that damage should be considered to be exponential.

 

Trebuchet, do you think we should remove the exponential progression from lifting strength?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Damage

 

Ah' date=' Nukes. I remember the last time I got involved in such an arguement, back when Nato was volunteering some boardspace while HERO Games got these boards set up. The last thing I posted on those boards was an alternate writeup of the 1 megaton nuke Steve Long wrote up for HERO System Almanac II. I don't think anybody noticed and I've let the writeup lay follow...[/quote']

 

 

I like the write-up for the nuke: it fits my feel of the right level of damage and is survivable by a quite powerful super with the right mix of defences, albeit even very powerful characters would take quite a bit of damage. Well done.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Damage

 

Trebuchet' date=' do you think we should remove the exponential progression from lifting strength?[/quote']Not really. What I'm saying is that it's pointless to state categorically that each 5 points of STR/attack Power is twice as powerful when other in-game scales provide different rates of progression. The correct answer to "How much more damage does each additional Damage Class do?" is "1d6." It's pretty ludicrous to start talking about ergs, calories, and megajoules of energy when one is discussing a game system which is recreating heroic fiction and not reality.

 

I happen to like the lifting tables as they are, for the sole reason that strong supers and other fictional heroes should be able to pick up heavy objects simply because it's in genre.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Damage

 

Now, what would this do to a M1 Abrahms tank (from FREd) & its crew (who had the horrible misfortune to be within 1 klick of the explosion)? Assuming average rolls:

The radiation would kill the crew. Unfortunately it might take it's time doing that. Let's hope the rest of the blast kills them sooner.

The crew lucked out against the Flash. The tank's anti-glare shields protected them.

The tank's out of luck against the EMP as it takes just 1 BODY to knock out its electronics.

The Fireball slags the poor tank. The front was facing the explosion so it got the benefit of it's 20 DEF. But it still took 25 BODY. The crew forunately got an extra 19 pts of protection from the tank, but still took 10 BODY from the Heat flash (the equivalent of 2nd degree burns) and 84 STUN. At least they won't feel the later effects.

The Shockwave comes 1 segment later and turns the slagged tank (it now takes 49 BODY) into free-floating slagged parts. Then the Pressure Wave turns it (and the crew) into free-flying parts. Naturally, the first thing that hits the crew is what's left of the tank (since the tank took all its BODY a segment ago and can't protect them anymore). They're now down to -49 BODY. Bye-bye crew. No one will be able to recognize (what's left of) your remains when you land, 'cause they were turned into bloody smears on the ground when you finally land (and take 17 BODY from the landing).

One turn later, the Tank & Crew take another 45 BODY from the Fireball, and then the Negative Pressure fills up the vacuum from the Pressure Wave, and essentially pours dirt on the poor crew's wounds by pulling any loose dirt and ashes over their bloodstains (it also did 12 BODY to them as well and then drags said stains for another 6 BODY, but I feel like such a meanie for pointing this out).

 

When it's all said & done, the tank took 180 BODY. The crew took 129.

Great writeup, Oruncrest. I have only two very minor quibbles:

 

The EMP would probably not affect the M1A2's electronics. Like most modern military vehicles designed to fight on a nuclear battlefield, the Abram's electronics are wholely shielded against EMP. I admit it's pretty much a moot point, since those electronics will still melt from the thermal pulse or break from the shockwave. I just thought I'd bring this up in the interest of accuracy.

 

Also, the frontal armor of an M1A2 Abrams tank (per TUV) is 30 PD. Not that it matters; the end result is the same.

 

Consider yourself repped as soon as my Reputation END Battery recovers.

[tracer]

I heard on the radio this afternoon that the 9.0 quake Christmas day released 23' date='000 times[/b'] more energy than the Hiroshima bomb of 12 kilotons.

Hmmm ... if that's the case, then the underwater earthquake would only have produced 276 megatons. That's a lot of energy, to be sure, but it's not an "order of magnitude" more energy than the theoretical 100 MTon yield of the Tsar Bomb. (Unless we're talking Astronomy magnitudes, here.)

[tracer]

Re: Damage

 

When it's all said & done' date=' the tank took 180 BODY. The crew took 129.[/quote']

Yeah, but they took that 129 BODY in 4 or 5 separate attacks, each of which they got to apply their defenses against, so I'm sure they all survived.

[Tester Smith]

Re: Damage

 

Hero System Almanac 2 broke down the affects of a 1 MT nuclear bomb. Being at ground zero a character would suffer the following.

 

Radiation Burst: 6d6 RKA AVLD(Power Defense), 3d6 CON and BODY drain, recover 5 pts. per month.

 

Thermal Blast: 20d6 RKA

 

EMP: 6d6 RKA only vs. electrical circuitry

 

Blast Wave, Static Overpressure: 20d6 RKA

 

Blast Wave, Winds: 20d6 RKA, Double Knockback

 

Negative Pressure: 3d6 RKA

 

Hope this helps.

[Rapier]

Re: Damage

 

1Megaton Tactical Nuclead Explosive

One last Note; the Shockwave is written up a little... oddly to show damage falling off differently than in a normal explosion. Damage by distance (from the center) is taken in this fashion:

Distance Damage

Up to 2km 14d6

2km - 3km 13d6

3km - 4km 12d6

4km - 5km 11d6

5km - 7km 9d6

7km - 8km 8d6

8km - 9km 7d6

9km - 11km 6d6

11km - 14km 3d6

14km - 15km 1d6

 

Have fun.

 

Cost Powers

405 Nuclear Explosion Effects; Trigger: +¼; OAF: -1; Mobility: Bulky, -½; Charge never recovers & destroys Bomb: -2; No Range: -½

(39) Radiation Burst 6d6 RKA; AE (Radius): +1; Megascale (1 Mile): +¼; AVLD (Power Defense): +1½; Affects Desolid: +¼; IPE: Two Sense Groups, +¾; No STUN: -¾; Gradual Effect: Almost Completely, -2; Charges: 1, -½; Continuing Charges: 1 Hour, -5 lev; Charge Never Recovers: -2; No KB: -¼; Only vs living characters: -½

(60) Flash 9d6 Transform (Major, Single Object); Affects Desolid: +½; AE (Radius) +1¾; Megascale (108 km/ 67.5mi): +¼; AVLD (Flash Defense): +1½; All or Nothing: -½; Charges: 1, -1½; Continuing Charges: Extra Phase, -1 lev; Only ¼ as effective in daylight: -1

(81) Fireball: 13d6-1 RKA; Explosion (Extended Area +1"/DC): +¾; Megascale (-1D6 / 2km): +¼; Indirect (Attacks all parts of objects): +¾; Charges: 1, -1½; Continuing Charges: Extra Phase, -1 lev

(36) EMP: 6d6 RKA; AE (Radius):+1¼; Megascale (18 Km): +¼; IPE: To All Senses, +1; No KB: -¼; Only affects Electrical Ciruitry: Half, -1; Charges: 1, -2

(81) Shockwave; Indirect (Attacks all parts of objects): +¾; Charges: 1, -1¼; Extra Time (next segment): -½; Requires an Atmosphere: -½; Does 1/25th damage vs. soft, maleable objects: -1

[27] 5d6 Killing Attack (RKA); Explosion (Extended Area +2"/DC): +1; Megascale (km): +¼

[23] 4d6 Killing Attack (RKA); Explosion (Extended Area +3"/DC): +1¼; Megascale (km): +¼

[18] 3d6 Killing Attack (RKA); Explosion (Extended Area +4"/DC): +1½; Megascale (km): +¼

[13] 2d6 Killing Attack (RKA); Explosion (Extended Area +5"/DC): +1¾; Megascale (km): +¼

(85) Pressure Wave 14d6 RKA; Double KB: +¾; AE (Radius): +1; Megascale (21 km): +¼; Charges: 1, -2; Extra Time (next segment): -½; Gradual Effect (1 Turn): -¼; Requires an Atmosphere: -½;

(21) Negative Pressure 10d6 EB; AE (Radius) +1½; Megascale (20 km): +¼; Double KB: +¾; Charges: 1, -1¼; Extra Time: 1 turn, -1¼; Gradual Effect (1 Turn): -¼; Requires an Atmosphere: -½;

 

Now, what would this do to a M1 Abrahms tank (from FREd) & its crew (who had the horrible misfortune to be within 1 klick of the explosion)? Assuming average rolls:

The radiation would kill the crew. Unfortunately it might take it's time doing that. Let's hope the rest of the blast kills them sooner.

The crew lucked out against the Flash. The tank's anti-glare shields protected them.

The tank's out of luck against the EMP as it takes just 1 BODY to knock out its electronics.

The Fireball slags the poor tank. The front was facing the explosion so it got the benefit of it's 20 DEF. But it still took 25 BODY. The crew forunately got an extra 19 pts of protection from the tank, but still took 10 BODY from the Heat flash (the equivalent of 2nd degree burns) and 84 STUN. At least they won't feel the later effects.

The Shockwave comes 1 segment later and turns the slagged tank (it now takes 49 BODY) into free-floating slagged parts. Then the Pressure Wave turns it (and the crew) into free-flying parts. Naturally, the first thing that hits the crew is what's left of the tank (since the tank took all its BODY a segment ago and can't protect them anymore). They're now down to -49 BODY. Bye-bye crew. No one will be able to recognize (what's left of) your remains when you land, 'cause they were turned into bloody smears on the ground when you finally land (and take 17 BODY from the landing).

One turn later, the Tank & Crew take another 45 BODY from the Fireball, and then the Negative Pressure fills up the vacuum from the Pressure Wave, and essentially pours dirt on the poor crew's wounds by pulling any loose dirt and ashes over their bloodstains (it also did 12 BODY to them as well and then drags said stains for another 6 BODY, but I feel like such a meanie for pointing this out).

 

When it's all said & done, the tank took 180 BODY. The crew took 129.

Very well done. The timing of effects appears to be accurate. The problem with all previous designs I've seen as that they attempt to lump it all under a xd6 Explosive RKA. Any casual research into nuclear (nukular) explosions tells us that there is much more going on than a simple explosion.

 

The question now becomes: at what point does a conventional explosion pick up additional effects (eg pressure wave, shockwave, flash)?

[Trebuchet]

Re: Damage

 

The question now becomes: at what point does a conventional explosion pick up additional effects (eg pressure wave' date=' shockwave, flash)?[/quote']With the possible exception of the flash (generated by temperatures over a million degrees), any conventional explosion would have these effects to some degree. The reason they're noticible with nukes is that nukes emulate thousands or tens of thousands of tons of conventional explosives. The US Air Force's "daisy cutter" bombs quite clearly exhibited pressure waves, and it's only 10,000 pounds of high explosives. Pressure waves are also deliberately utilized in the Army's mine-clearing ordnance we saw used in the Gulf War in 1991, which when detonated in a straight line blew up surrounding pressure-sensitive mines.