How Limiting are your Limitations?

[tesuji]

Ok, so for sake of argument, lets take you arguments for how its too complex to do it right, too complex to break things down into interactive and independent, even though we know both exist for both type, lets say we all agree that would be too much work...

 

So, now, for the 64 cp question, if we know that both linear and lumpsum, or independent and dependent costs, are both invalid or just approximations, simplifying it down to easier accounting... after all, easier accoutning is what HERo is known for far and wide...

 

then why not use the SAME simplified accounting for advantages and limitations and be consistent?

 

Why choose to ignore the synergistic effects for advantages, leaving them at a linear methodology, and not make the same decision, ignoring the overlap between limitations, and use linear for limitations?

 

IF we are willing to say that 0 end for a 12d6 Eb will cost 30 points whether it saves you 6, 8 or 15 points by ignoring advantages, why can we not say that taking a full phase instead of a half phase on a 12d6 eb saves you 20 points (or if we use the 10% rule, 12 points) regardless of whether it comes from your fingertips or from a gun?

[bjbrown]

This thread reminds me of a section of The Ultimate Super-Mage (page 34).

 

The author challenged his playtesters to make the most abusive possible attack based on 60 active points. The players tried the most abusive combinations of powers of which they could think. However, no combination of powers and advantages proved more effective than the simple 4d6 RKA. Over the course of playing, the author describes that powers without advantages were generally more effective than any combination of powers and advantages.

 

Character creation guidelines that limit characteristics, active points of powers, defenses, etc. are going to level out balance problems between characters in a game. At best, creative use of limitations may allow points saving that allow one character to have more depth in skills and powers, but not necessarily more combat effectiveness.

 

So, you have two characters who want the biggest possible energy blast the campaign allows. It's a superheroic game that allows up to 14 DC, so they both buy 14d6 E-Blasts for 70 points each. They both buy DEX 39 (40 is max) so they can hit as accurately as possible with the E-Blast, spending 87 pts. each, and 10 SPD to shoot them as fast as possible, 51 pts. each.

 

Now, the second character puts the full phase limitation on his E-Blast. That saves him 23 points. Can he use this 23 points to make the attack more effective than the first character? Well, he can't buy skill levels for the E-Blast (or at least, he can't expect to use them). He is already at his maximum allowed CV and DC with the E-Blast. He can't buy more speed to shoot them faster, since he is already at maximum speed. He can't even add any sort of advantage, since even a +¼ Advantage would bring the E-Blast to 87 active points, which exceeds the 80 active point limit for powers.

 

Thus, because of character creation limits, both characters can have the best possible attack. As a result of that full phase limitation, the second character has 165 character points left to spend, and the first character has 142 character points left to spend. Both are kind of thin, and even though the second character does have more character points, that 165 as opposed to 142 to buy the rest of his characteristics, skills, etc. isn't that great.

 

Thus, I don't find the current way that advantages and limitations are figured to be terribly problematic. Reasonable character creation guidelines should even out balance problems.

[Gary]

Originally posted by tesuji

Ok, so for sake of argument, lets take you arguments for how its too complex to do it right, too complex to break things down into interactive and independent, even though we know both exist for both type, lets say we all agree that would be too much work...

 

So, now, for the 64 cp question, if we know that both linear and lumpsum, or independent and dependent costs, are both invalid or just approximations, simplifying it down to easier accounting... after all, easier accoutning is what HERo is known for far and wide...

 

then why not use the SAME simplified accounting for advantages and limitations and be consistent?

 

Why choose to ignore the synergistic effects for advantages, leaving them at a linear methodology, and not make the same decision, ignoring the overlap between limitations, and use linear for limitations?

 

IF we are willing to say that 0 end for a 12d6 Eb will cost 30 points whether it saves you 6, 8 or 15 points by ignoring advantages, why can we not say that taking a full phase instead of a half phase on a 12d6 eb saves you 20 points (or if we use the 10% rule, 12 points) regardless of whether it comes from your fingertips or from a gun?

 

Again, because it breaks down after a certain point. If you choose 10% as the value for each increment, it doesn't work for a fantasy hero type setting. If you use 5% as the increment, there is no incentive to only take 1 or 2 limitations on a power because you're not saving enough.

[Gary]

Originally posted by bjbrown

This thread reminds me of a section of The Ultimate Super-Mage (page 34).

 

The author challenged his playtesters to make the most abusive possible attack based on 60 active points. The players tried the most abusive combinations of powers of which they could think. However, no combination of powers and advantages proved more effective than the simple 4d6 RKA. Over the course of playing, the author describes that powers without advantages were generally more effective than any combination of powers and advantages.

 

He must not have creative playtesters.

 

1D6 EB AVLD(+1.5 def is power defense) Penetrating X2 (+1) Autofire (+1.5) Area Effect radius (+1) O end (+1) X32 radius (+1.25) Does Knockback (+.25) 640 shots (+3.5) 60 active points

 

Anybody who doesn't have double hardened power defense will take 640 stun since the area effect is so large that even misses will zap the target. Even if they have double hardened power defense, the 640" knockback will nuke them.

 

Nothing is more abusive than a small base power with lots of advantages.

[tesuji]

Except for one thing, autofire AOE attacks which miss just miss and go away, they do not spread like normal area attacks do.

[Gary]

Originally posted by tesuji

Except for one thing, autofire AOE attacks which miss just miss and go away, they do not spread like normal area attacks do.

 

All you have to do is target your own hex. The maximum miss is half the distance to the target, so there won't be any misses.

[Blue Angel]

Originally posted by tesuji

Except for one thing, autofire AOE attacks which miss just miss and go away, they do not spread like normal area attacks do.

 

My thoughts ...plus, correct me if I am wrong, but KB is not cumulative on autofire attacks. So that attack would cause no KB at all.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Blue Angel

My thoughts ...plus, correct me if I am wrong, but KB is not cumulative on autofire attacks. So that attack would cause no KB at all.

 

For knockback purposes with autofire, take the largest body of an attack, and add 1 body for each additional hit.

 

Page 162 of rulebook.

[Christougher]

Originally posted by Gary

All you have to do is target your own hex. The maximum miss is half the distance to the target, so there won't be any misses.

 

Bullsnot. I'm tired of hearing that crock. Attacks that miss, *MISS*. Anything else is just pure cheese.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Christougher

Bullsnot. I'm tired of hearing that crock. Attacks that miss, *MISS*. Anything else is just pure cheese.

 

Even if that is your interpretation, all I have to do is to target the planet Earth in my hex. The planet Earth has between -150 and -200 DCV I believe...

[BNakagawa]

Originally posted by Christougher

Bullsnot. I'm tired of hearing that crock. Attacks that miss, *MISS*. Anything else is just pure cheese.

 

I think that anyone who has been hit by stray bullets might disagree.

 

Of course, in a game context, you can wave your hand and dismiss shots that miss.

 

Unless you're having a firefight inside of a submarine or something...

 

$0.02

[tesuji]

A "miss" is an attack that did not get the required to hit roll.

 

What you are describing is an attack which misses but does not scatter far enough away to "under normal condition" not still affect the initial target hex.

 

Problem is, the AOE exception which makes Af AOE "misses" not do additional damage.

 

A RAM-GL lau cher firing one grenade that misses the hex will scatter. A RAM-GL firing three AF grenades only has one go off if it misses... or rather might have all three going off and scattering but only one counts for damage against the primary target.

 

 

Originally posted by Gary

All you have to do is target your own hex. The maximum miss is half the distance to the target, so there won't be any misses.

[Gary]

Originally posted by tesuji

A "miss" is an attack that did not get the required to hit roll.

 

What you are describing is an attack which misses but does not scatter far enough away to "under normal condition" not still affect the initial target hex.

 

Problem is, the AOE exception which makes Af AOE "misses" not do additional damage.

 

A RAM-GL lau cher firing one grenade that misses the hex will scatter. A RAM-GL firing three AF grenades only has one go off if it misses... or rather might have all three going off and scattering but only one counts for damage against the primary target.

 

So just target the planet. I'm sure you'll get lots of hits...

[tesuji]

you will be targetting a hex... DCV 3 or 0.

 

thats all for now.

[JamesG]

Originally posted by Gary

1D6 EB AVLD(+1.5 def is power defense) Penetrating X2 (+1) Autofire (+1.5) Area Effect radius (+1) O end (+1) X32 radius (+1.25) Does Knockback (+.25) 640 shots (+3.5) 60 active points

 

Anybody who doesn't have double hardened power defense will take 640 stun since the area effect is so large that even misses will zap the target. Even if they have double hardened power defense, the 640" knockback will nuke them.

 

You still roll to hit to see how many of those shots affect the target. The target is NOT hit by all 640 shots just because he's inside the area of effect. So assuming an OCV of 11 and DCV 3 that's an average of 5 hits with a max of 10 hits. Raising OCV will of course raise the avg and max number of hits, and 2-pnt CSLs would be a better use of points than +640 shots. Of course that tactic may quicky run afoul of campaign CV limits.

 

All-in-all an interesting power construct, but not the world beater it is described as.

 

Nothing is more abusive than a small base power with lots of advantages.

 

Won't argue with you there, except to amend that to say that nothing is more potentially abusive...

[archermoo]

Originally posted by Gary

So just target the planet. I'm sure you'll get lots of hits...

 

Sure, but keep in mind that hitting the planet at your -150 to -200 means that you it it SOMEWHERE. Not necessarily where you wanted to. Not necessarily where there are bad guys. And besides that, there is already a way of dealing with general targeting. Hexes have a DCV of either 0 or 3. As tetsuji already pointed out.

[Gary]

Originally posted by archermoo

Sure, but keep in mind that hitting the planet at your -150 to -200 means that you it it SOMEWHERE. Not necessarily where you wanted to. Not necessarily where there are bad guys. And besides that, there is already a way of dealing with general targeting. Hexes have a DCV of either 0 or 3. As tetsuji already pointed out.

 

Per Steve Long, you can target the individual rather than the hex if it is more advantageous.

 

Let's change the power around a little:

 

1/2D6 EB AVLD(+1.5 def is power defense), Penetrating X2 (+1), Autofire (+1.5) Area Effect radius (+1) O end (+1) X2 million radius (roughly the planet earth with a little to spare) (+7.75) Does knockback (+.25) 640 shots (+3.5) 55 active points

 

This way, as long as an attack lands somewhere on the Planet Earth, the target will get hit.

 

[archermoo]

Originally posted by Gary

Per Steve Long, you can target the individual rather than the hex if it is more advantageous.

 

Let's change the power around a little:

 

1/2D6 EB AVLD(+1.5 def is power defense), Penetrating X2 (+1), Autofire (+1.5) Area Effect radius (+1) O end (+1) X2 million radius (roughly the planet earth with a little to spare) (+7.75) Does knockback (+.25) 640 shots (+3.5) 55 active points

 

This way, as long as an attack lands somewhere on the Planet Earth, the target will get hit.

 

There is a difference between targeting a character who is at 0 DCV in a hex that would normally be 3 DCV and your example. If you want to target your effect somewhere specific, target the hex. "I want to target the planet instead of a hex" is just a (IMNSHO) bad attempt to get around the rules. If you want to allow it in your games, more power to you.

[Gary]

Originally posted by archermoo

There is a difference between targeting a character who is at 0 DCV in a hex that would normally be 3 DCV and your example. If you want to target your effect somewhere specific, target the hex. "I want to target the planet instead of a hex" is just a (IMNSHO) bad attempt to get around the rules. If you want to allow it in your games, more power to you.

 

That brings up an interesting point. I'm sure most people including you, would allow a character to target a skyscraper, the Great Pyramid, or Mt. Rushmore instead of a hex. At what point would you consider it abusive to target the structure rather than the hex? Would you allow targetting a small island? A large island? The Pentagon building? Godzilla? A mountain? A mountain range? A continent?

 

At a certain point, it just becomes an arbitrary cutoff no matter where you draw the line.

[Marcus]

The number to hit a hex is to hit the SPECIFIC hex. Lets face it, by the rules I, with my 2 OCV (player is NOT agile) cant reliably hit a 2m hex. (Let us not get started on the inanity of of Champions, in general, in some respects. ). That said, given a 9mm pistol, at a range of 20 meters, I am most likely physically incapable of missing the Pyramids, espc if I choose to be at 0 DCV (and thus EASIER TO HIT than a hex!) to line up my shot.

 

Honestly, the rules cant defend you from carefully-enough enginnered Red Mage action. Only the GM can do that. Just say 'Not in my game' Its a wonderful phrase.

[Blue Angel]

Originally posted by Gary

Per Steve Long, you can target the individual rather than the hex if it is more advantageous.

 

Let's change the power around a little:

 

1/2D6 EB AVLD(+1.5 def is power defense), Penetrating X2 (+1), Autofire (+1.5) Area Effect radius (+1) O end (+1) X2 million radius (roughly the planet earth with a little to spare) (+7.75) Does knockback (+.25) 640 shots (+3.5) 55 active points

 

This way, as long as an attack lands somewhere on the Planet Earth, the target will get hit.

 

To make matters worse / better use megascale on AOE one hex. It is cheaper. Just +1.75 for AOE one hex 10,000 km.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Marcus

Honestly, the rules cant defend you from carefully-enough enginnered Red Mage action. Only the GM can do that. Just say 'Not in my game' Its a wonderful phrase.

 

Yeah, no sane GM would ever allow a 3 pt power with +17.5 in advantages.

 

That power construct was in response to a previous post which stated that the most effective 60 active point power was a simple 4D6 RKA.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Blue Angel

To make matters worse / better use megascale on AOE one hex. It is cheaper. Just +1.75 for AOE one hex 10,000 km.

 

The trouble with using megascale is that the misses are on a megascale level as well.

[archermoo]

Originally posted by Gary

That brings up an interesting point. I'm sure most people including you, would allow a character to target a skyscraper, the Great Pyramid, or Mt. Rushmore instead of a hex. At what point would you consider it abusive to target the structure rather than the hex? Would you allow targetting a small island? A large island? The Pentagon building? Godzilla? A mountain? A mountain range? A continent?

 

At a certain point, it just becomes an arbitrary cutoff no matter where you draw the line.

 

At the point where your intent is to target something near the object, rather than targeting the object itself.

[Gary]

Originally posted by archermoo

At the point where your intent is to target something near the object, rather than targeting the object itself.

 

You've just crippled the entire military throughout the 20th century. Until very recently with smart weapons, the whole concept of bombers, and artillery and rocket barrages was to place lots of high explosive near the enemy and hope that some of the bombs or shells land close enough to do some damage. At Stalingrad, the Germans use to try and blow up entire buildings just to get a few snipers in it or nearby.