What is the Soul/Spirit, and how do I attack it?

[Merlin273]

I'm trying to create some spells that drain or damage the soul (in living creatures) and disrupt/hurt/kill ghosts or undead creatures. How do I do this? What Characteristic(s) do I use?

[gojira]

Re: What is the Soul/Spirit, and how do I attack it?

 

Well, I haven't actually played in quite a while, so I'm not up on the latest (I still have to pick up 5ed!). But no one else has attempted to answer your question, so I'll give it a stab.

 

First, what genre? Supers? Fantasy?

 

Second, it depends on what your GM rules. Oddhat did a great thread in the Champions genre forum about the New Circle, a group of superheroes who are specialized to fight evil spirits. He did all of his spirit attacking stuff with Affects Desolid--All Forms. But that means that his GM would have ruled that spirits are a form of desolid. So ask your GM.

 

I have a very old "Hero Almanac", third edition rules I think. It says that to affect spirits, you need to buy a power with advantages: Affects Spirits (+1/2), and Based on EGO (+1/2), for a total of +1. I think +1 is the same cost as Affects Desolid--All Forms, but I'd have to look it up to be sure. Powers which already are based on EGO (Ego Attack, etc.) only have to buy the +1/2 Affects Spirits advantage. I don't know if these rules are still canon, as they are quite old. There are other powers which affect spirits directly, such as Shift Spirit (used for "soul jar" powers as well as excorisms), Spirit Summoning, Consume Spirit, etc.

 

Anywoo, that should give you an idea of the total point cost for affecting spirits. Check with your GM, or if you are the GM, you should charge about +1 on normal powers to affect spirits, and about +1/2 for powers based on EGO. You might want to ask around for where the spirit rules are now (they seemed Fantasy oriented in the Almanac). Check the FAQ too, there might be some hints in there.

 

Good luck!

[gojira]

Re: What is the Soul/Spirit, and how do I attack it?

 

I forgot to mention: You can't normally hurt a spirit/soul in a body directly (you gotta fight them on the astral plane for that--good luck!). So most people just punch baddies in the nose instead--that's why they've got a BODY, for you to punch. I'd just buy a weird drain multipower and give it the special effect "Soul Drain" or whatever.

 

Ghost are spirits, use the ideas in my first post.

[zornwil]

Re: What is the Soul/Spirit, and how do I attack it?

 

Dr. Evil, how do you think this would actually affect characters? Does a character with no spirit/soul die (begs to be a BODY-related thing then)? Do undead and ghosts have BOD?

 

I would tend to look at it as a rare instance where it's okay to do a "Drain BOD" or a Killing Attack against Limited (Power) Defenses, with Affects Desolid.

[OddHat]

Re: What is the Soul/Spirit, and how do I attack it?

 

From a mechanical POV in 5th, non-corporeal spirits and ghosts are mostly written up as Desolidified, with a very few written up as existing on the Astral Plane and having Transdimensional added to their targetting senses and attacks. To hurt most of them in 5th, you need ADSO at +1/4 for one type of desolid only (Ghost/Spirit) or +1/2 for full ADSO. You need Transdimensional for those few that are transdimensional in nature, something that the GM will have to decide on and should probably discuss with players.

 

Targetting someones spirit is mostly a special effect; I'd just let characters buy various Drains, Transfers, and AVLD attacks (probably with Does Body), add ADSO and call it an Attack on the Spirit.

[Dust Raven]

Re: What is the Soul/Spirit, and how do I attack it?

 

A few quick ideas, since you can really do just about anything you like.

 

Most Logical: Killing Attacks. Typically bought NND or AVLD versus Mental or Power Defense (or NND versus some condition that would guard the soul), and Does BODY. If the idea is to kill the target, 9 out of 10 times, a Killing attack is the best way to go.

 

Easiest: Drain EGO (or BODY, or even both). EGO is typically though of as being the "mind/spirit" of a character, or at least representing that. Though Draining a character's EGO to really negative doesn't kill him, it makes him a vegetable. If you think this effect wouldn't kill the target (the soul can be damaged but not destroyed) and the target would eventually heal, this could work. Alternately, you can have it directly affect BODY, using it to kill the target (or both, which, duh, does both).

 

Obnoxiously Creative: Transform (person into person without a soul/damaged soul). Decide what effect having a damaged/destroyed soul would have on a character. If it's not death, and it's not a loss of some Characteristic or some other effect that isn't easily represented by some other Power (or maybe that along with something that isn't), then you might go with Transform. For instance, maybe person without a soul can't heal, or doesn't cast a reflection, or takes damage from holy objects. This can be represented easily with Transform.

[Trebuchet]

Re: What is the Soul/Spirit, and how do I attack it?

 

I'm trying to create some spells that drain or damage the soul (in living creatures) and disrupt/hurt/kill ghosts or undead creatures. How do I do this? What Characteristic(s) do I use?

I gotta admire your optimism that a handful of geeks on a message board can answer a question that theologians and philosophers have been wrestling with for millenia.

[Merlin273]

Re: What is the Soul/Spirit, and how do I attack it?

 

I gotta admire your optimism that a handful of geeks on a message board can answer a question that theologians and philosophers have been wrestling with for millenia.

 

ROTFLOL!!!

 

Honestly, guys, I wasn't looking for the answers of life, death, and the afterlife. I'm just looking for the mechanics that would best simulate this scene:

 

Living target is grabbed by a spirit/demon (whatever) that exists in the astral plane. A sorcerer or priest casts a spell at the hex and even though both the spirit/demon and living target are hit by the attack, only the spirit/demon takes damage.

 

See, the way I've worked demons and spirits is that they exist in the astral plane, which makes them immune to most standard spell effects. Only a spell that draws energy from their world can hurt them.

 

Any ideas on this?

[Trebuchet]

Re: What is the Soul/Spirit, and how do I attack it?

 

ROTFLOL!!!

 

Honestly, guys, I wasn't looking for the answers of life, death, and the afterlife. I'm just looking for the mechanics that would best simulate this scene:

 

Living target is grabbed by a spirit/demon (whatever) that exists in the astral plane. A sorcerer or priest casts a spell at the hex and even though both the spirit/demon and living target are hit by the attack, only the spirit/demon takes damage.

 

See, the way I've worked demons and spirits is that they exist in the astral plane, which makes them immune to most standard spell effects. Only a spell that draws energy from their world can hurt them.

 

Any ideas on this?

How about AoE 1 Hex with Selective Target (Only Extradimensional Beings)? That would prevent the human hostage from getting hurt by your attack.

 

Another option of course is to simply make it a Stun-Only attack, which means even if you accidentally hit the hostage it won't harm him or her. Blast bad guy, repeat as necessary, then separate hostage from unconscious demon and vaporize/send back to Hell with a different attack.

[Dust Raven]

Re: What is the Soul/Spirit, and how do I attack it?

 

ROTFLOL!!!

 

Honestly, guys, I wasn't looking for the answers of life, death, and the afterlife. I'm just looking for the mechanics that would best simulate this scene:

 

Living target is grabbed by a spirit/demon (whatever) that exists in the astral plane. A sorcerer or priest casts a spell at the hex and even though both the spirit/demon and living target are hit by the attack, only the spirit/demon takes damage.

 

See, the way I've worked demons and spirits is that they exist in the astral plane, which makes them immune to most standard spell effects. Only a spell that draws energy from their world can hurt them.

 

Any ideas on this?

Oh, that's somewhat easy... maybe

 

If the spirits only exist on the Astral Plane, you can use Transdimensional. So long as any other target in the area isn't also on the Astral Plane, they shouldn't get hit.

 

Then again, if the fact they are on the Astral Plane is just a SFX for Desol, then you can use Affects Desol (astral plane; +1/4) and a Limitation so that it won't affect anything that "not astral".

[OddHat]

Re: What is the Soul/Spirit, and how do I attack it?

 

ROTFLOL!!!

 

Honestly, guys, I wasn't looking for the answers of life, death, and the afterlife. I'm just looking for the mechanics that would best simulate this scene:

 

Living target is grabbed by a spirit/demon (whatever) that exists in the astral plane. A sorcerer or priest casts a spell at the hex and even though both the spirit/demon and living target are hit by the attack, only the spirit/demon takes damage.

 

See, the way I've worked demons and spirits is that they exist in the astral plane, which makes them immune to most standard spell effects. Only a spell that draws energy from their world can hurt them.

 

Any ideas on this?

 

If by "only exists in the Astral plane", you mean that, from a mechanics point of view, the being is actually in Astral space and is using a transdimensional targetting sense and transdimensional attack to attack people in the material world, then only a Transdimensional attack (+1/2) can hurt them, and the attacker will also need a Transdimensional Targetting sense. People in this plane would be fine.

 

If by "only exists in Astral plane", you mean that, from a Mechanics POV, they are desolid, ADSO attacks will work. Use AOE1hex:Accurate to avoid hitting the hostage, or the -0 limit "Not Versus The Living" (-0 because it's almost as much an advantage as a limit for this kind of spell).

 

If you're just using a house rule to simulate Astral form, use a house rule to simulate the attack that bypasses it.

[Merlin273]

Re: What is the Soul/Spirit, and how do I attack it?

 

What I'm trying to figure out, is what Characteristic(s) should I think of for the term Soul or Spirit? Should it be Body? If Soul/Spirit means 'Life Force' then yes. Could it mean Ego? If an attack is considered a 'soul-crushing' attack, could that mean Ego Attack? Could it mean PRE?

 

Several spells in the FH Grimoire have 'soul' in them, but they vary in effect and description.

 

I'm just curious what the 'official', or even 'officially un-official' definition of Soul and/or Spirit is in terms of the Hero System and it's mechanics.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: What is the Soul/Spirit, and how do I attack it?

 

I'm trying to create some spells that drain or damage the soul (in living creatures) and disrupt/hurt/kill ghosts or undead creatures. How do I do this? What Characteristic(s) do I use?

 

 

Well, reason from Effect. Do you want to kill the target or reduce them to a vegetative husk?

 

There are endless power constructs that could fit the SFX of Soul Drain.

 

Personally I favor Drains vs BODY (to Kill) or EGO (to "kill the soul" but leave the body alive), but Killing AVLD vs PowDef Does Body is a good effect too. A Transfer vs EGO or BODY is also a good "Soul Drain" effect; in fact I have a Magic System built around that: Adeptology

 

Scroll down to the "Thanomancer" variant under Variations.

 

here is a sample character: Sample Thanomancer

[Killer Shrike]

Re: What is the Soul/Spirit, and how do I attack it?

 

What I'm trying to figure out, is what Characteristic(s) should I think of for the term Soul or Spirit? Should it be Body? If Soul/Spirit means 'Life Force' then yes. Could it mean Ego? If an attack is considered a 'soul-crushing' attack, could that mean Ego Attack? Could it mean PRE?

 

Several spells in the FH Grimoire have 'soul' in them, but they vary in effect and description.

 

I'm just curious what the 'official', or even 'officially un-official' definition of Soul and/or Spirit is in terms of the Hero System and it's mechanics.

There is no such concept per se. The only reference to "Spirit" per se is under Transform -- the three types of Transform are Body, Mind, and Spirit.

 

Largely the idea of a soul-affecting attack is just a SFX that can be expressed by many many different power constructs.

[Dust Raven]

Re: What is the Soul/Spirit, and how do I attack it?

 

I'm just curious what the 'official'' date=' or even 'officially un-official' definition of Soul and/or Spirit is in terms of the Hero System and it's mechanics.[/quote']

There is neither an official, or an unofficial definition of soul/spirit in the Hero System.

 

The closest you get is when using a Transform, which can target the body, the mind, or the spirit, and lists some of the qualities of each as they apply to Transform. And even when you are transforming the spirit, you typically pick either BODY or EGO for the characteristic to work against, and neither of them of really specified as being standard (though it does seem to lean toward EGO).

 

Ultimately, "soul" is as much what you define it to be as anything else in the game. It's a SFX, not a stat. Like Fire Powers, or "Fuschia Radiation" or even "hard light"...it's something the GM/Player defines and builds their Powers to simulate that effect.

[Merlin273]

Re: What is the Soul/Spirit, and how do I attack it?

 

Okay, so if I have a spell described as:

 

"A spell which creates a lance of light that damages a target's spirit. The spell deals no physical damage, and even a direct hit only causes the target to fall unconscious for a period of time. A useful spell against spirit beings such as Mazoku."

 

I can translate it like this:

 

10d6 Energy Blast, Affects Desolidified (+1/2), Transdimensional (Astral Plane; +1/2), Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2), Only Does Stun Damage to Non-Astral Beings (-1)

[OddHat]

Re: What is the Soul/Spirit, and how do I attack it?

 

Okay, so if I have a spell described as:

 

"A spell which creates a lance of light that damages a target's spirit. The spell deals no physical damage, and even a direct hit only causes the target to fall unconscious for a period of time. A useful spell against spirit beings such as Mazoku."

 

I can translate it like this:

 

10d6 Energy Blast, Affects Desolidified (+1/2), Transdimensional (Astral Plane; +1/2), Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2), Only Does Stun Damage to Non-Astral Beings (-1)

 

Way too complicated. Pick one: ADSO or Transdimensional. Only Does Stun is -0.

[Dust Raven]

Re: What is the Soul/Spirit, and how do I attack it?

 

I wouldn't say too complicated, but a bit overboard maybe.

 

Ask your GM how spirits are represented in your campaign. Are they Desol, or normal creatures with Transdimensional Powers to affect the real world? Whichever one it is, use that Advantage. You shouldn't need both. Then again, if the GM decides that some spirits are one, and some are the other, then you'll need to figure out if this spell can affect both. Typically it shouldn't, but it's not my campaign so it still could.

 

Oddhat is right about the STUN only. Typically, STUN Only versus some targets and not others is kinda flaky, and sounds more like an advantage, because you don't have to worry about hurting people that get in the way. Then again, I might allow an "Only Does BODY Versus Spirits" at +0, which is effectively the same thing, but more precise in what it means.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: What is the Soul/Spirit, and how do I attack it?

 

There is not an easy answer for this. The Soul or Spirit simply can't be defined by the parameters of the system. Not unless there was one specifically created to simulate it (i've seen a few RPG's go this route).

 

If I were to use any particular characteristic to represent the "Soul" I would use PRE. Why? Because the PRE characteristic is the closest representation of a characters "personality" or "Identity" that the system has.

This creates the problem though that draining a characters "Soul" becomes quite easy, based on the cost of PRE, so I would rule that in order to actually affect someone's soul, the Transdimensional Advantage would need be put on any power (except Transform) designed to directly affect a characters Soul on the Astral Plane.

 

Now we have to ask ourselves this question;

 

What exactly does "killing" or removing the soul do to a character. What role does the Soul play in the makeup of a sentient being.

 

Answer these questions and you are halfway to solving the delima. I have some ideas, but I want to hear some of yours first....

[Killer Shrike]

Re: What is the Soul/Spirit, and how do I attack it?

 

Okay, so if I have a spell described as:

 

"A spell which creates a lance of light that damages a target's spirit. The spell deals no physical damage, and even a direct hit only causes the target to fall unconscious for a period of time. A useful spell against spirit beings such as Mazoku."

 

I can translate it like this:

 

10d6 Energy Blast, Affects Desolidified (+1/2), Transdimensional (Astral Plane; +1/2), Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2), Only Does Stun Damage to Non-Astral Beings (-1)

 

Good description, but your write up needs work.

 

A) Ask your GM (or if you are the GM) decide whether "spirits" are bought as Inherently Desolid creatures with Affects Physical World (APW) on their attacks or whether they are normal creatures that inhabit some other dimension (such as the Astral or Ethreal Plane or whatever verbage you want to use to describe it), and have some form of Transdimensional sense and Transdimensional on their attacks.

 

Ghosts and the like are usually done as Desolid w/ APW, as it's a more straightforward construct that is easier to deal with in play (and avoids the whole messy dimension aspect), but whichever.

 

There are other ways of doing Ghosts as well, of course; you could conceivably represent Ghosts with Damage Reduction 75%, using their Desolid as an evasion/movement Power instead of their primary defense; you avoid needing APW on all their attacks, and opponents can effect them a little in combat without needing "magical"/Affects Desolid attacks. I've found it to be more manageable personally, but whatever.

 

Assuming you go with either always-Desolid or transdimensional, you only need one or the other on your attack.

 

Im going to assume Desolid:

 

xd6 Energy Blast, Affects Desolidified (+1/2), Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2); Cost: 10 pts / d6

 

 

"Only Does Stun Damage to Non-Astral Beings (-1)" is not a valid Limitation. Stun Only is a -0 on an EB, and having it selectively do Stun Only vs some targets and function normally versus others is actually a very minor Advantage. However, since you are basically looking at a -0/+0 type of situation, a GM might allow it depending on where their "who cares" threshold is set at. Either way, its not worth anything as a limitation.

 

 

C) Im getting the impression that your original question regarding "souls" was misleading -- looks like you meant "incorporeal undead"