easy Desolid. question.

[simplygnome]

Ive played Hero for a little while now (Im still a baby compared to some of you...Think Im going on...4?...years now), and up until now I've managed to avoid dealing with the power Desolidification, believe it or not.

 

My question is, do Ego and Mind based attacks (mind control, BOECV, etc etc) have to take Affects Physical World to be used while a character is Desolidified? Now, people Desol. still take damage from mental attacks, so why not the reverse? Ive looked through the book (Fred) and all I get is "he cannot effect the physical world unless prevoiusly stated" yet most of the examples only talk about physically touching the real world, not mentally.

 

Am I right, that mental based abilities can be used while Desold, without an anvantage? Thanks in advance for the info....

[Guest Champsguy]

Re: easy Desolid. question.

 

I don't think there is an official answer, though you might check the Frequently Asked Questions. I'd probably allow Desolid characters to use Mental Powers on people, but you have to be careful with that. A 10D6 EB with "affects real world" is 150 active points, but a 10D6 EB with BOECV is only 100, and it goes against Mental Defense (slap on "does body" and you're finally up to 150 active points).

 

If you're GMing, I'd just watch out for that problem. If you're playing, ask your GM what he thinks.

[simplygnome]

Re: easy Desolid. question.

 

Thanks Champs. Yes, I did check the FAQ and I didnt see anything, although I might have missed it.

 

Im the player in this case. Actually, Im looking more at MindControl (and an AOE mind control for the machine class only) and possible one EGO attack. If you want a run down of the character, its in the Champions Thread under Its all 1s and 0s baby!.

[Dust Raven]

Re: easy Desolid. question.

 

You have to buy any Power Affects Real World to have it affect anything while you are Desolid. It's a balance issue. Otherwise all you'd have to do is make sure the other side didn't have a mentalist, or hope the mentalist didn't see you, and you'd be invulnerable. The same thing goes for Flash attacks, which can also affect desol.

 

Although there are a few Powers you can use to good effect while Desol. Darkness and Images. Neither of these need to actually affect anything, so you can still use them to full effect while Desol.

[SirViss]

Re: easy Desolid. question.

 

this is covered under the description of Desolidification in 5ER (p.148). And the "official" answer is "no, you can't".

 

edit: I take way too long to type my messages. This is twice in 30 minutes that Dust Raven has beaten me to the puch.

[simplygnome]

Re: easy Desolid. question.

 

this is covered under the description of Desolidification in 5ER (p.148). And the "official" answer is "no, you can't".

 

edit: I take way too long to type my messages. This is twice in 30 minutes that Dust Raven has beaten me to the puch.

 

Still on normal 5th here. Poor college student, give me some time =P

 

...and thanks for the clarification guys Now go to my other thread and post...I need more idead =P

 

Would CHANGE ENVIRONMENT also be one of the powers that can be worked through desolid, since it doesnt "attack" anyone...ermm...techinically that is???

[MitchellS]

Re: easy Desolid. question.

 

Still on normal 5th here. Poor college student, give me some time =P

 

...and thanks for the clarification guys Now go to my other thread and post...I need more idead =P

 

Would CHANGE ENVIRONMENT also be one of the powers that can be worked through desolid, since it doesnt "attack" anyone...ermm...techinically that is???

Anything "attack-like-thing" which affects the real world requires the advantage otherwise it only affects desolidified people.

[Dust Raven]

Re: easy Desolid. question.

 

edit: I take way too long to type my messages. This is twice in 30 minutes that Dust Raven has beaten me to the puch.

Funny, I tend to write real slow....

 

In the immortal words of George Lucas:

 

IT'S NOT MY FAULT!

 

[Sean Waters]

Re: easy Desolid. question.

 

You have to buy any Power Affects Real World to have it affect anything while you are Desolid. It's a balance issue. Otherwise all you'd have to do is make sure the other side didn't have a mentalist, or hope the mentalist didn't see you, and you'd be invulnerable. The same thing goes for Flash attacks, which can also affect desol.

 

Although there are a few Powers you can use to good effect while Desol. Darkness and Images. Neither of these need to actually affect anything, so you can still use them to full effect while Desol.

 

 

You can use darkness and images when desolid without buying 'affects the physical world'? Is that a JULIE ruling or just the way you play it?

[Hawksmoor]

Re: easy Desolid. question.

 

The real question TRL would be *why* would they *not* work.

 

I absorb all light in the area of 8" radius around my PC. Why would the PC being phased have anything to do with that power.

 

Similarly, and I know this is a play balance issue but Flashes should Effect Real World automatically since they are transmiting sensory information.

 

OTOH I think that Dust Raven is correct on the No Desolid Mentalist angle, Mind Guys have enough advantages being Mind Scan snipers without them getting to phase and scramble. It does make the "I'm Just Invulnerable!" guy less of an option, but that is the breaks of a granular system where true invulnerability is a pipe dream.

 

Hawksmoor

[Sean Waters]

Re: easy Desolid. question.

 

The real question TRL would be *why* would they *not* work.

 

I absorb all light in the area of 8" radius around my PC. Why would the PC being phased have anything to do with that power.

 

Similarly, and I know this is a play balance issue but Flashes should Effect Real World automatically since they are transmiting sensory information.

 

OTOH I think that Dust Raven is correct on the No Desolid Mentalist angle, Mind Guys have enough advantages being Mind Scan snipers without them getting to phase and scramble. It does make the "I'm Just Invulnerable!" guy less of an option, but that is the breaks of a granular system where true invulnerability is a pipe dream.

 

Hawksmoor

 

 

Ah, the application of logic to games rules...that way lies only madness!

 

They shouldn't work becasue they make you too powerful. Captain Can't See Me has desolid and darkness with personal immunity. Everyone else in his team has grenades. The good Captain likes to stand next to enemies, rendering them sightless while his team lobs grenades into the darkness field from a distance and taunting them the while...

 

Similarly illusions can be devastating: Captain Desolid Illusionist likes to go desolid and look like an enemy leader issuing contradictory orders, or look like a team mate and stand inside an enemy. Ho ho ho....

 

Nothing to stop you using shape shift to accomplish the first one, I suppose...assuming you bought IPE for your desolid...

 

Anyway you can't have it one way and not the other: mental powers effect desolid characters: why not the same in reverse? Toooooo poooooowerfuuuuuuul! You can do it but it'll cost ya!

[Dust Raven]

Re: easy Desolid. question.

 

You can use darkness and images when desolid without buying 'affects the physical world'? Is that a JULIE ruling or just the way you play it?

What's a JULIE ruling?

 

In any case, it just makes sense. Darkness and Images don't affect anyting, they only impare senses.

[Dust Raven]

Re: easy Desolid. question.

 

Ah, the application of logic to games rules...that way lies only madness!

 

They shouldn't work becasue they make you too powerful. Captain Can't See Me has desolid and darkness with personal immunity. Everyone else in his team has grenades. The good Captain likes to stand next to enemies, rendering them sightless while his team lobs grenades into the darkness field from a distance and taunting them the while...

 

Similarly illusions can be devastating: Captain Desolid Illusionist likes to go desolid and look like an enemy leader issuing contradictory orders, or look like a team mate and stand inside an enemy. Ho ho ho....

 

Nothing to stop you using shape shift to accomplish the first one, I suppose...assuming you bought IPE for your desolid...

 

Anyway you can't have it one way and not the other: mental powers effect desolid characters: why not the same in reverse? Toooooo poooooowerfuuuuuuul! You can do it but it'll cost ya!

There's really no difference in effectiveness when using those Powers in that way whether your Desol or not. If I have Images, I can just as easily make one of the enemy look like a target from across the battlefield while behind cover. Same thing with the Darkness. Both of those Powers are ranged. The only thing the Desol lets you do is wade in the middle of it and not get hurt. Certainly worth 40 points and 4 END per Phase, and not at all unbalancing.

[simplygnome]

Re: easy Desolid. question.

 

See, I have a problem with that.

 

Now youre applying half RULES and half "realism".

 

Why should images be unaffected by desolid, but Mind attacks are. Considering a normal character can still be attacked by mental attacks while desolidified, then that means their mental senses are still "solid" so to speak, so he should beable to attack back. It seems that minds can still connect...

 

SOOO, if you say that DARKNESS and ILLUSIONS can be used without buying the modifier, then I'd say that so can ALL MENTALS POWERS, if you were following realism

 

On the other hand, you can say that NEITHER can be used, for game balance, despite all special effects and realism. Desolidify is a VERY good form of defense, and in the right hands I think that a player could be just as devistating with darkness and/or illusions as someone could be with a RKA, or anything else, so it should also take the penalties, logic be damned.

 

It really does make no sense, but I see that its all for the balance, and you cant really start giving exceptions.....(Then you end up with Flooper CosmoKnight/Glitterboy Veritech Troopers...and if you've ever played RIFTS, you know EXACTLY what Im talking about =P!!!)

 

Thats just MHO anyhow...

[Dust Raven]

Re: easy Desolid. question.

 

See, I have a problem with that.

 

Now youre applying half RULES and half "realism".

 

Why should images be unaffected by desolid, but Mind attacks are. Considering a normal character can still be attacked by mental attacks while desolidified, then that means their mental senses are still "solid" so to speak, so he should beable to attack back. It seems that minds can still connect...

 

SOOO, if you say that DARKNESS and ILLUSIONS can be used without buying the modifier, then I'd say that so can ALL MENTALS POWERS, if you were following realism

 

On the other hand, you can say that NEITHER can be used, for game balance, despite all special effects and realism. Desolidify is a VERY good form of defense, and in the right hands I think that a player could be just as devistating with darkness and/or illusions as someone could be with a RKA, or anything else, so it should also take the penalties, logic be damned.

 

It really does make no sense, but I see that its all for the balance, and you cant really start giving exceptions.....(Then you end up with Flooper CosmoKnight/Glitterboy Veritech Troopers...and if you've ever played RIFTS, you know EXACTLY what Im talking about =P!!!)

 

Thats just MHO anyhow...

No exceptions given. I'm following the rules and nothing but. I mentioned nothing about "realism" but only about game balance. Please reread to verify.

 

To reiterate...

 

It specifically states in the Description of Desolidification that if a character wants to attack, he must become solid, or buy the attack with Affects Physical World. Darkness and Images are not attacks, nor to they affect anyone in the physical world. At least not directly, as it is with Damage and other effects. If a Desol character were to stand in someone's way, they would still block normal sight. Why not with similar Sense Affecting Powers that aren't attacks? I'm sure you wouldn't say that a character would have to buy his Shape Shift, Shrinking or Growth with Affects Physical World to use while Desol. Why balk at Darkness and Images?

[simplygnome]

Re: easy Desolid. question.

 

No exceptions given. I'm following the rules and nothing but. I mentioned nothing about "realism" but only about game balance. Please reread to verify.

 

To reiterate...

 

It specifically states in the Description of Desolidification that if a character wants to attack, he must become solid, or buy the attack with Affects Physical World. Darkness and Images are not attacks, nor to they affect anyone in the physical world. At least not directly, as it is with Damage and other effects. If a Desol character were to stand in someone's way, they would still block normal sight. Why not with similar Sense Affecting Powers that aren't attacks? I'm sure you wouldn't say that a character would have to buy his Shape Shift, Shrinking or Growth with Affects Physical World to use while Desol. Why balk at Darkness and Images?

 

 

Point taken, because it does specify ATTACKS must have the advantage...hrm.

[Dust Raven]

Re: easy Desolid. question.

 

Sigh.

 

Belatedly, I must admit defeat, officially. I asked for clarification on this mater from Steven and he said that Darkness and Images could not be used to affect the physical world while Desol.

 

I must say that I completely disagree with this ruling... I can't really imagine a "desol" darkness field or exactly how a desolid Image differes from a normal Image.

 

However, I did find out that you can use PRE Attacks while Desol! That's good news!

[simplygnome]

Re: easy Desolid. question.

 

I know what you mean though. It doesnt make sense. At the same time, I still dont think Mental attacks make sense, as you still can be affected by them, so the inverse should happen.....However...

 

Its all balance.

 

Its actually no the points that are getting me, its that my campaing has an AP points cap for attacks, so Im having to majorly reduce me effectiveness in order to get my defense...Then again, its a pretty good defense =D

[Sean Waters]

Re: easy Desolid. question.

 

Sigh.

 

Belatedly, I must admit defeat, officially. I asked for clarification on this mater from Steven and he said that Darkness and Images could not be used to affect the physical world while Desol.

 

I must say that I completely disagree with this ruling... I can't really imagine a "desol" darkness field or exactly how a desolid Image differes from a normal Image.

 

However, I did find out that you can use PRE Attacks while Desol! That's good news!

 

You can't go round admitting defeat just when I'd thought of something cunning to say! Ah well.....

[Sean Waters]

Re: easy Desolid. question.

 

When you are desolid it is obvious that you are desolid, so your 'desolid images' would be obvious too. You could buy IPE for the desolid so it is not obvious you are desolid, but it will not effect your illusions which are a seperate power: they will still obviously not be real, so they will be pretty useless - UNLESS you buy 'affects real world'. They'll be visible, but not at all convincing.

 

Darkness is harder to justify, but if the darkness is desolid it can not absorb light: it has no effect on anything in the 'real' world, so it can not even effect light to any substantial degree: a desolid darkness field would basically be an area of shadow: but one you can see through normally (or with a small modifier) unless you buy the +2 advantage.

[Dust Raven]

Re: easy Desolid. question.

 

When you are desolid it is obvious that you are desolid, so your 'desolid images' would be obvious too. You could buy IPE for the desolid so it is not obvious you are desolid, but it will not effect your illusions which are a seperate power: they will still obviously not be real, so they will be pretty useless - UNLESS you buy 'affects real world'. They'll be visible, but not at all convincing.

 

Darkness is harder to justify, but if the darkness is desolid it can not absorb light: it has no effect on anything in the 'real' world, so it can not even effect light to any substantial degree: a desolid darkness field would basically be an area of shadow: but one you can see through normally (or with a small modifier) unless you buy the +2 advantage.

I suppose I can buy that for Images, but not for Darkness. Darkness has nothing to do with light... it stops people in the area from perceiving anything with a particular Sense Group (typically sight). The whole light thing is just SFX and has nothing to do with the rules. If there's a Darkness field there, there's a Darkness field there... exactly what a Desolid Darkness field does differently than a solid one baffles me. Does it create an opaque area that everyone can see through? I dunno...

[Sean Waters]

Re: easy Desolid. question.

 

I suppose I can buy that for Images' date=' but not for Darkness. Darkness has nothing to do with light... it stops people in the area from perceiving anything with a particular Sense Group (typically sight). The whole light thing is just SFX and has nothing to do with the rules. If there's a Darkness field there, there's a Darkness field there... exactly what a Desolid Darkness field does differently than a solid one baffles me. Does it create an opaque area that everyone can see through? I dunno...[/quote']

 

I don't see it that way: the power that stops people perceiving stuff is flash: that affects the senses directly. To my mind, darkness doesn't effect the senses, it blocks things from getting to them. If you want to define darkness as affecting the senses directly then I don't see your problem: it is having an effect on a target directly, so needs the advantage. If it is just affecting the environment i.e. creating an opaque area, it must be obvious if created by a desolid being that you can perceive that the opaque area is desolid, and I'd do that by making it obvious that there is an effect in operation, but not actually have an effect in the physical world: total blackness becomes deep shadow, a deafening clamour becomes a background howl, and so on, UNLESS you've bought the advantage.

 

The trouble is, that is the rule. You can ignore it or find a justification.

 

You point out that both images and darkness are ranged and can therefore be used from behind cover from the other side of the battlefield: well you need to break cover to use them, at least partially, and you need to maintain line of sight, and you are vulnerable to snipers and AE weapons, and so on.

 

Ultimately it is about game balance. I think that some powers are more useful to be able to use while desolid than others. You might like to adopt a house rule that powers that cause damage, use UAA or are mental powers have to take the +2 advantage and other powers (like darkness and images) can take a +1 (or less if you feel it appropriate).

[Dust Raven]

Re: easy Desolid. question.

 

Ultimately it is about game balance. I think that some powers are more useful to be able to use while desolid than others. You might like to adopt a house rule that powers that cause damage' date=' use UAA or are mental powers have to take the +2 advantage and other powers (like darkness and images) can take a +1 (or less if you feel it appropriate).[/quote']

I like this idea! Rep for you!

 

It makes sense to have a reduced cost Advantage for less useful versions of it. Kind of the reverse of the extra cost for making an Autofire Power Reduced END.