MitchellS Posted February 1, 2005 Report Share Posted February 1, 2005 Re: Brick tricks A very good plan, although the brick still gets to use his full damage AND area effect if he can find something with sufficient DEF+BODY, it does go a long way to redressing the balance. Don't you find that this makes the one hex AE advantage pretty pointless though? Applied to a 60 ActivePoint EB it would reduce the DC of the attack to 8d6, whereas by your house rule they get it at 11d6? To be honsest I think I like your way better, but I'd probably do -2DC for one hex, then -2 per inch around it, and maybe make area effect a bit cheaper (+.25 for one hex and +.5 for radius, maybe). Probably about time we heard from some speedsters and martial artists not keen on the way this is going.... In our games AE 1hex is a +1/4 advantage. We consider it to be less useful than explosion which is a +1/2. I guess that's why we only use -1 DC for the first hex. I'm sure it works just as well with a straight -2 DC, and is probably easier for people to remember too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplygnome Posted February 1, 2005 Report Share Posted February 1, 2005 Re: Brick tricks Well, there are very good points, and I see the arguments, but I have yet to find this unbalancing. As an odd note, I'm not really a fan of playing bricks, even if I'm a champion to their car throwing cause.... Im more of a speedster or dex monkey skillster type anyhow. Ive never really found car chunking Bricks to be a problem....After all, whats me having to dodge or dive for cover for two or three phases when I have a SPD of 8???? Or can disappear into the shadows?? etc, etc. Anyhow, I guess different groups will react differently to different rules. I honestly let STR be used without even the use of the power skill. I let them throw things for free....Because it makes sense and I have yet to see it absued. Even used every fight, I don't really see it as abuse....especially since I usually limit how/when these things are available....Sure cars are nice, but in an office building, I don't really think a Swivel-Chair is going to stand up against Dr. Turmoil. The Power Tricks skill comes in when we're looking at things like shockwaves, and earthquakes and such.... I actually find an intelligent use of Speedster tricks to be a bit more unbalancing than Brick tricks...My goodness can speedster tricks get silly (not only is he already moving extraordinarily fast and using himself as a ramming rod every round with a SPD 8, but now he creates blinding dust trails, is moving so fast that hes invisible, and is creating minor duplicate images of himself [the run run STOP run run STOP routine] along the paths to confuse his enemies....Good luck hitting that sucker.) Well, I hope you guys find a good balance for your games! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted February 1, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2005 Re: Brick tricks Well, there are very good points, and I see the arguments, but I have yet to find this unbalancing. As an odd note, I'm not really a fan of playing bricks, even if I'm a champion to their car throwing cause.... Im more of a speedster or dex monkey skillster type anyhow. Ive never really found car chunking Bricks to be a problem....After all, whats me having to dodge or dive for cover for two or three phases when I have a SPD of 8???? Or can disappear into the shadows?? etc, etc. Anyhow, I guess different groups will react differently to different rules. I honestly let STR be used without even the use of the power skill. I let them throw things for free....Because it makes sense and I have yet to see it absued. Even used every fight, I don't really see it as abuse....especially since I usually limit how/when these things are available....Sure cars are nice, but in an office building, I don't really think a Swivel-Chair is going to stand up against Dr. Turmoil. The Power Tricks skill comes in when we're looking at things like shockwaves, and earthquakes and such.... I actually find an intelligent use of Speedster tricks to be a bit more unbalancing than Brick tricks...My goodness can speedster tricks get silly (not only is he already moving extraordinarily fast and using himself as a ramming rod every round with a SPD 8, but now he creates blinding dust trails, is moving so fast that hes invisible, and is creating minor duplicate images of himself [the run run STOP run run STOP routine] along the paths to confuse his enemies....Good luck hitting that sucker.) Well, I hope you guys find a good balance for your games! I'm surprised: as a speedster you must be very disciplined, and always delay your phase, otherwise this could happen: Phase 12: You: I'll autofire punch the brick! GM: Doesn't bother him too much, but you've got his attention. He throws a car into your hex...rolling 3d6...he hits, you take... You: Hang on I'm DCV 15! GM: He was aiming at the hex. Take... You: Hang on, I'll dive for cover GM: Can't you've taken your action this phase You: Roll with punch GM: Can't you've TAKEN your ACTION this PHASE. Now take 49 stun and 13 Body You: Splat... Incidentally, in my games you'd be paying points for those 'speedster tricks' too, if you used them more than once or twice. Call me Mr Scrooge... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawksmoor Posted February 1, 2005 Report Share Posted February 1, 2005 Re: Brick tricks Here is a cure: Don't let the attack be Area Effect. Make it a straight OCV roll. Yeah you are throwing a bus, but so? Is it any more accurate? Most likely not. The enhanced size comes in when that pesky reality comes in and the GM want to make sure that the bus can be used to Sweep four hexes. Serously TRL sometimes I think the game you want to play isn't even remotely like the Champions I have grown up with and love. All these pesky questions and suggested changes. That means in your previous example said Brick has no enhanced ability to hit the Speedsters DCV of 15 simply by hitting him with the suburban conveinently within arms reach. See? Fair and Balanced and no "Buy Everything!" nonsense. Hawksmoor -Buying LS: Extending Breathing 1 END phase so I can model my character's normal breathing.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplygnome Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 Re: Brick tricks Also TRL, yes I do hold my actions ...on all phases that has an enemy action....My biggest strength is my DCV and SPD, so Im going to take advantage of it. When you think about it, the loss of 4 phases (assuming he has access to 4 cars every turn) isnt really that tragic when you think I still have 2-4 MORE phases in which he CANT dive for cover or abort to any action.... But I agree with Hawksmoor....add OCV, not AOE. It works much better IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southern Cross Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 Re: Brick tricks Can you buy Combat Skill Levels with the No Range Limitation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplygnome Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 Re: Brick tricks A 5 pt CSL for HTH will do that...It already only applies to HTH combat, without range. This CSL would work for all close combat manuevers, but not when throwing a car and such.... Although it would still work for using the car as a club, or a light post or something....so still giving you some instances of AOE or stretching... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted February 2, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 Re: Brick tricks Can you buy Combat Skill Levels with the No Range Limitation? Yes, but only for ranged attacks...erm... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted February 2, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 Re: Brick tricks Here is a cure: Don't let the attack be Area Effect. Make it a straight OCV roll. Yeah you are throwing a bus, but so? Is it any more accurate? Most likely not. The enhanced size comes in when that pesky reality comes in and the GM want to make sure that the bus can be used to Sweep four hexes. Serously TRL sometimes I think the game you want to play isn't even remotely like the Champions I have grown up with and love. All these pesky questions and suggested changes. That means in your previous example said Brick has no enhanced ability to hit the Speedsters DCV of 15 simply by hitting him with the suburban conveinently within arms reach. See? Fair and Balanced and no "Buy Everything!" nonsense. Hawksmoor -Buying LS: Extending Breathing 1 END phase so I can model my character's normal breathing.... Having a bad day, Hawksmoor? I read your post carefully. Can I refer you to this website: http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html I think you were probably using 'straw man' but there are lots of other interesting methods for you to learn and employ. See if you can spot the one I'm using now... OK no AE, use +OCV. Fine. Doesn't make sense if you drop a battleship on someone IMO, but I can live with it. Throwing a 12.5 ton subway car would give you +12 to +14 OCV if you use the 'bonus to hit an object that size' rules in reverse, and assuming I added it up right. Would that be any better? What do you do about dive for cover then? I mean you can't realistically stay in the hex, but all the ones around are also covered by subway car: I'm not throwing bits of it, I'm lobbing the lot. If it isn't AE you don't really have to leap away at all, but you are going to be hit if you don't employ DFC anyway: + 12 is a LOT even for an OCV 8 brick. Regarding your normal breathing, you've done it wrong. You need the 10 point 'sealed systems' LS limited to 'only in a breathable atmosphere' and 'only when breathing' and 'may not be used as a defence'. How much did you pay for having a skeleton? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted February 2, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 Re: Brick tricks Also TRL, yes I do hold my actions ...on all phases that has an enemy action....My biggest strength is my DCV and SPD, so Im going to take advantage of it. When you think about it, the loss of 4 phases (assuming he has access to 4 cars every turn) isnt really that tragic when you think I still have 2-4 MORE phases in which he CANT dive for cover or abort to any action.... But I agree with Hawksmoor....add OCV, not AOE. It works much better IMHO. Very disciplined of you. Pray you never encounter a brick with Acting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplygnome Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 Re: Brick tricks TRL - I COULD be wrong, but judging by the growth chart in FRED pg 118 (and inverting the DCV minuses to OCV pluses) I calculate that the subway car would only get a +6 (if you go by weight) to a +8 (if you go by size) OCV bonus. Still pretty impressive, but not too overpowered imho. Not against a speedster that is...Others might want to hold their actions and abort to a DFC or flyingdodge maneuver. The "special effect" you're worried about is just a missthrown rail car. The speedster was just a bit quicker and jumped up as it slid under him and thumped harmlessly behind him or he dove down as it flew over his head. Possibly he had to pull a spider man and jump through the windows of the oncomming monstrosity and out the other side....Meh, let the characters get all artsy with it... I've got a better idea to avoid it though........DONT FIGHT A BRICK WITH 50+ STR NEAR A SUBWAY CAR!!!! =P Obviously this isnt always an available option, but theres no rule saying a PC or Villian for that matter can't just go where they arent at a disadvantage. When The Prankster lures the Green Meenie out into a pasture, about the most dangerous thing youre going to get is flying fence posts and really upset cows.... --------------------------- As for a brick with acting...ermm...well: "Well imagine that....An INTELLIGENT guard!" - Titan A.E. (Actually...good point. Never had that happen...would definately throw me for a loop...not that Id care...As a speedster I wouldnt be anywhere near him anyways =P Or id be moving so fast he couldnt see me...or Id kick dirt in his eyes...meh, try me now lummox boy! Still, I see your points.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted February 2, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 Re: Brick tricks You really have the speedster rap down pat: always so overconfident! You'll have to meet Whistle, the speedster in our group - you could be twins. On the OCV bonus I'm looking atFRED 247: each doubling of hexes adds +2, starting with a full hex. Looking at the strength chart a subway car is 12.5 tons and looking at the vehicles page I misread the entry and thought the area was the length, so you are quite right: I'm wrong - the area is 12.5 hexes...bit ackward, but 1 full hex is +2, 2 hexes +4, 4 hexes +6 and 8 hexes +8, 16 hexes would be +10, so 12.5 is in the middle, so +9 probably. You'd need to throw a 50 ton object to have a 32 hex area which would be +12, and you'd need to be at least 60 STR to wield it, and I accept objects that big are often harder to come by...but not that uncommon either, especially in urban environments. I do appreciate the point about not fighting near subway cars but IME, the villains tend to dictate the location of most battles, so you may not have the choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplygnome Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 Re: Brick tricks Well first off, I was more reffereing to the NPC VILLIANS dictating where to fight the car-obsessive PCs =P Secondly....Thank you for the overconfident quip! I do rather enjoy speedsters and, to some extent, tricky martial artists....I mean seriously...being able to outrun a race car, out talk a politicain (imagine what a SPD 8 diplomat can do =P), and having a DCV higher than most of your enemies IQs (at least from my point of view =P....COME-ON NOW..You GOTTA love the power!!!! EDIT - Meh, Ill check the math later...Its early in the morning and I havent had a nap yet =P. See what I mean by using the growth chart though...was just the easiest reference for me...Ill look at it later...youre right though +9 OCV is nothing to scoff at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted February 2, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 Re: Brick tricks Well first off, I was more reffereing to the NPC VILLIANS dictating where to fight the car-obsessive PCs =P Secondly....Thank you for the overconfident quip! I do rather enjoy speedsters and, to some extent, tricky martial artists....I mean seriously...being able to outrun a race car, out talk a politicain (imagine what a SPD 8 diplomat can do =P), and having a DCV higher than most of your enemies IQs (at least from my point of view =P....COME-ON NOW..You GOTTA love the power!!!! EDIT - Meh, Ill check the math later...Its early in the morning and I havent had a nap yet =P. See what I mean by using the growth chart though...was just the easiest reference for me...Ill look at it later...youre right though +9 OCV is nothing to scoff at. Our GM built our characters for us, and Whistle (the speedster) was designed to not quite be able to break the sound barrier. GM wouldn't let him buy +2 NCM (too easy) so he had to buy extra inches of running, tack on all sorts of limitations and everything: that's all he spent XP on in the first three months. Why? Well, s'cool. Y'know - the sound barrier, Mach 1... OK.... You are all the same, aren't you? (I'm playing Monster Girl who can shapeshift into a variety of monsters including a sort of mini-godzilla with claws. Rubber claws, mind you, not really that useful...I spend a lot of time roaring and stomping. Never mind that being so big I'm the easiest target on the battlefield and, unfortunately far from invulnerable, but what the heck: it's fun! Is spent most of my first three months XP growing gills to impress an NPC. Go figure.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawksmoor Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 Re: Brick tricks Please do not forget that even if you can pick up the object your range is limited by excess STR. Most 350 point characters are not going to lob buses or subway cars very far. Golf Balls on the other hand easily reach escape velocity. As to my comment TRL I was just getting sick of reading yet another HERO is so wrong thread. That compounded with my loathing of Brick Tricks, did indeed set me off. Every Brick Trick is just a *reliable* version of an SFX or Combat maneuver. You only paid points for it so that you never accidentally killed someone by blowing the Pulled Punch Roll (Flicking Finger anyone?). None of the Brick Tricks is required. *Period*. Seeing someone advocating that characters spend points for tossing things around is just silly. That said proceed with your development of HERO: the Lemming Rules. I'll be over here. Hawksmoor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted February 2, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 Re: Brick tricks Please do not forget that even if you can pick up the object your range is limited by excess STR. Most 350 point characters are not going to lob buses or subway cars very far. Golf Balls on the other hand easily reach escape velocity. As to my comment TRL I was just getting sick of reading yet another HERO is so wrong thread. That compounded with my loathing of Brick Tricks, did indeed set me off. Every Brick Trick is just a *reliable* version of an SFX or Combat maneuver. You only paid points for it so that you never accidentally killed someone by blowing the Pulled Punch Roll (Flicking Finger anyone?). None of the Brick Tricks is required. *Period*. Seeing someone advocating that characters spend points for tossing things around is just silly. That said proceed with your development of HERO: the Lemming Rules. I'll be over here. Hawksmoor Your graciousness makes me regret my sharp and unthinking response! Some time ago I posted an open apology on the board saying how I was reading through old threads and I always seemed to be complaining about Hero, and how I actually (despite appearances) did think it was an excellent system and I appreciated all the work that Mr Long and every other developer and contributor over the years put in, and I only spent all my time moaning because it was my deeply held desire to see the system working even better and if the stimulation of open debate accomplished this then the comtempt and derision .... you get the idea. Pretty sure it was pithier than that. Maybe it is time I posted another general apology. Can't hurt, can it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simplygnome Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 Re: Brick tricks TRL - One thing Ive noticed... It seems that all your complaints with the HERO system that youre trying to do one thing: Make it fair and balanced... I beleive therein might lie your problem? Please point to me the issue of JLA that had a complete blanaced team of heros. Please point out to ANY one rpg that didn't give advantages to someone at one point in time. Please point out to ANY one RL city that is fair....any one neighboorhood then...okay, how about any one household....The point is, life in GENERAL isnt fair. SOMEONE will always hold the upper hand, have another card up his sleeve, or be in a better position than you at some point in time...But then so will you too have your time to shine.... When you choose to play a brick, you do so because you like the advantages of having immense strength, such as the ability to apply it to the real world. When you choose to be a mentalist, you do so because you like the advantages of having superior mental control and the ability to manipulate your opponents (IE MENTAL ENTANGLES =P Sound like a familiar argument ^_~). When you choose to play a speedster, you do so because you realize, inside, that you're just that darn good....errmm...I mean because you like speed, yadda yadda, yadda =P The point is, There is a LOT of unfairness...in everything, but as long as the players and GM work together in HERO, they can assure that the characters are good at something, or in some situation, and give them their time to shine accordingly. That just my opinion. Im a rules lawyer too....Sometimes it makes more sense to have fun, nitpicking be damned.... =D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted February 2, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 Re: Brick tricks S'funny really, I seem to have far more problems when I'm posting than when I'm playing. Mind you if everyone went round being reaonable, this would be a very quiet board..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRealVector Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 Re: Brick tricks Wow, is there a way we can link this discussion to the thread: "FYI: Why more people are'nt playing HERO"? I think we've found the answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted February 2, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 Re: Brick tricks Wow' date=' is there a way we can link this discussion to the thread: "FYI: Why more people are'nt playing HERO"? I think we've found the answer.[/quote'] I'm sure I have NO idea what you mean. Surely everyone doesn't know about me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted February 2, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 Re: Brick tricks That just my opinion. Im a rules lawyer too....Sometimes it makes more sense to have fun' date=' nitpicking be damned.... =D[/quote'] I take your point. Apparently in New york they decided to use lawyers instead of rats for medical experiments because: 1. There were more lawyers than rats, and 2. No one cared what happens to lawyers. They only abandoned the idea after initial trials showed that there was less correllation between the results for lawyers and humans than rats and humans. Unfortunately I'm both types of lawyer (but not in NY, you'll be relieved to hear) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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