Invisible to Touch Group?

[Guest lucky]

Under "Invisibility" in the 5th Edition book, it states that:

Characters should not normally buy Invisibility to the Touch Sense Group; simulate that ability with Desolidification. (p. 123)

Frankly, I don't understand this. Doesn't "invisible to touch" indicate the ability to not be felt, as opposed to actual intangibility?

 

The specific context for my question is a character who can create a telepathic "Someone-Else's-Problem" field around herself. The SEP Field is a radial telepathic projection emitted by a mentalist which 'tells' local minds to ignore selected sensory input, i.e. anything which reveal the telepath's position. In other words, although people are "seeing" the character (in the sense that light rays are bouncing off of her and being reflected into the eyes of observers), their brains are subconsciously ignoring the information. This means that all stimuli relating to the protected telepath (visual, aural, tactile, olfactory, etc.) are neglected.

 

For this power, isn't "Invisible to the Touch Group" exactly right?

[MitchellS]

Re: Invisible to Touch Group?

 

I have no problem with invisible to the touch group but I think the issue is that in most instances you would realize that you, for example, keep trying to grab a door knob but for some reason your arm never reaches it because someone is in the way. That means in many instances you will not really be invisible to the person due to environmental circumstances [he can see rain falling off you for example].

 

If you use desolidification with cannot pass through solid object and doesn't protect from damage you get a power that costs 16 points. Not great but not too terrible too. With desolidification you can run through someone you can't touch. With invisible to touch you would run into them, get knocked over, but never feel it, and so you would know something was there; that then defeats the whole purpose of the power.

[austenandrews]

Re: Invisible to Touch Group?

 

You're absolutely right, Invisibility is a good match for that power.

 

I have no problem imagining other uses for Invisible To Touch that don't approach the realm of Desol. Frankly, statements in the rules like "it's normally done this way" or "you don't normally do it that way" I consider to be guidelines at best, author bias at worst. You know all those posts that get bounced from the "Rules Questions" forum to this one? Statements like these in the rules are analogous to those posts, and hence qualify as nothing more than author suggestions. IMO.

[MitchellS]

Re: Invisible to Touch Group?

 

I was thinking invisibility to touch would be a great ability for a pickpocket. The mark never even knows you have your hand in his pocket.

[Mike W]

Re: Invisible to Touch Group?

 

MitchellS:

 

The term "Someone Else's Problem Field(SEP)" is from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. The way the field works, a person sees that say, an ugly green spaceship has just landed in the middle of a cricket field, but the people who see the spaceship decide that it is someone else's problem and elect to not interact with that part of reality. In effect, they see the ship, they unconciously know to walk around it, but they do not conciously see it nor do they remember it because their mind can't handle having to deal with the consequences of seeing said ship land in the middle of a cricket field; instead, they subconciously pass the buck by calling it someone else's problem, thereby not having to deal with either the ship or the consequences of seeing it. So it isn't exactly desolidification.

 

To be honest, I'd build an SEP as mind control, limited effect "ignore". About 12 or 15d6 would be enough to make sure that no one properly even remembered it.

[austenandrews]

Re: Invisible to Touch Group?

 

How about "Invisibility v.s. Memory?"

[Citizen Keen]

Re: Invisible to Touch Group?

 

I agree with Mike W - I think Invisibility to Touch Group is much more in line with MitchellS's idea about the pickpocket.

 

Invisibility to Sight Group doesn't make you invisible to deduction. If it rains, you see an outline. If you walk in the sand, you leave tracks. If you punch through a wall, you see a hole burst through the wall.

 

Similarly, Invis to Touch would mean I couldn't feel you. But if you picked me up and threw me to the ground, I'd feel the rush of wind and loss of equilibrium as I was raised up in the air, and the solid impact of the ground. I'd be able to infer that something picked me up and threw me to the ground, I just wouldn't have felt what it was.

 

I think a SEP Field is much more a Mind Control power. It doesn't stop you from seeing or feeling (or in any other way sensing) the character, it just stops you from thinking (or caring) about the character. Thus, MC.

[Mike W]

Re: Invisible to Touch Group?

 

Invisibility vs. memory, even if you could build it as a sense group(and I don't think you could) would not prevent you from interacting with the ship at the time you actually saw it.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Invisible to Touch Group?

 

I'm fine with Invisibility to Touch, and often use it for Ninjas when they run through crowds (can't tell where's he's going, cuz nobody realizes a guy is rushing past them and bumping into people... no "trail" of angry people in otherwords), and the cleverist of pickpockets. I have also used it as an alternative to the "walks without a trace" abilities previously written up with Gliding.

 

Invisible to Touch along with other Senses (like Sight Group) could add to the illusion of not being there, even when stuff like rain hits you (still runs off instead of through you, but doesn't bounce).

[GaryB]

Re: Invisible to Touch Group?

 

I would say Invisibility vs Touch is akin to being frictionless.

[Kristopher]

Re: Invisible to Touch Group?

 

Desolid is going to be more appropriate 99% of the time.

[Guest lucky]

Re: Invisible to Touch Group?

 

Thanks for all the great ideas, everyone.

 

Is Mind Control really the best way to build this power? It seems so, at least initially, but the effect is to render the user invisible, right? So shouldn't we use Invisibility?

 

Also, I'd think that you'd need a f#ck-ton(*) of Mind Control, given that:

A) EGO+30 is required to force the target to perform actions s/he is "violently opposed to doing," which may include ignoring the mentalist;

 

Another +20 is added to that if the target is meant to forget what happened.

This means that in order to affect the average, run-of-the-mill Normal (EGO 8), 58 points of effect need to be rolled. With a Standard Effect Rule of 3 per die, that's 20 dice ( ) of Mind Control. Add Area Effect: Radius, 0 END ('cause no way am I paying for that on a per-phase basis) and possibly Personal Immunity (depending on the GM) and you're looking at, well... a f#ck-ton of Mind Control.

 

Nah, I'm thinking Invisibility is the way to go with this one.

 

 

(*) 2,204,623,000 lbs, for anyone still using Imperial measurements.

[Mike W]

Re: Invisible to Touch Group?

 

Actually, I don't think you would need +30 since the target actually wants to avoid dealing with it(it's a game logic thing, at least in Hitchhiker's). Also, since the mind control only does ONE thing, you get a major limit(at least -1/2).

 

Invisibility sort of works based on the idea that you can actually see what is in the SEP if you know somethings is there and don't look directly at it(at least to start).

[Guest lucky]

Re: Invisible to Touch Group?

 

But the target only wants to avoid dealing with it because they're mind-controlled, yeah? There's a bit of a Catch-22 developing there... And even with a (-1/2) Limitation, it'd still be a damned expensive power.

 

I mean, I like the idea of using Mind Control, I'm just not sure it's feasible.

[Citizen Keen]

Re: Invisible to Touch Group?

 

Well, Invis would make you invisible to machines, and machines shouldn't be affected by an SEP Field.

 

Also, I wouldn't think it should work versus "violently opposed" people - guards aren't violently opposed, but their archnemesis should be able to see them.

 

Lastly, why should targets forget that they've been affected? If they see it, but don't think about it, and then remember later. This is a classic move in movies. When the interrogator realizes they've been had. "Well, yeah, this guy in a tux did walk past the checkpoint, but I didn't think anything of it at the time."

[Mike W]

Re: Invisible to Touch Group?

 

The fact that they don't want to deal with what happened was a part of the nature of beings in the Hitchhiker universe, power or no. It shows up in other literature too(vampire literature for instance). Mind Control seems to me to be the best way to express the power, even if it is expensive. It's a pretty nasty power, being able to make people avoid interacting with you, so it probably should be fairly expensive.

 

15D6 Mind Control 0 END(+1/2) AOE Radius(+1), single effect(-1/2), only for people looking directly at the character(-1/4), must achieve EGO +30(-1/2)

Active Points: 187

Real Cost: 83

 

Incredibly expensive, yes; but also very, very powerful. I mean, how many characters are even capable of attacking you when this power is going?

[Citizen Keen]

Re: Invisible to Touch Group?

 

I'd ditch the 0 END, and in fact, increase it's END. This makes it a power the characters can turn on. If they're not paying attention, how would the character interact with anyone?

[Void]

Re: Invisible to Touch Group?

 

Under "Invisibility" in the 5th Edition book, it states that:

 

Frankly, I don't understand this. Doesn't "invisible to touch" indicate the ability to not be felt, as opposed to actual intangibility?

 

The specific context for my question is a character who can create a telepathic "Someone-Else's-Problem" field around herself. The SEP Field is a radial telepathic projection emitted by a mentalist which 'tells' local minds to ignore selected sensory input, i.e. anything which reveal the telepath's position. In other words, although people are "seeing" the character (in the sense that light rays are bouncing off of her and being reflected into the eyes of observers), their brains are subconsciously ignoring the information. This means that all stimuli relating to the protected telepath (visual, aural, tactile, olfactory, etc.) are neglected.

 

For this power, isn't "Invisible to the Touch Group" exactly right?

 

The choice of special effect is very important. What you have described is mind control, not invisibility. You can be percieved but you demand that the target ignore you.

 

That is most appropriately built as mind control instead of invisibility.

 

As the book says, invisibility to touch is most appropriately purchased as a form of desolidification, perhaps with limitations. A chracter is always aware of his own body movements, invisibility does not block that. Thus, if he tries to move through an area where you are, and you are physically present, then you stop his motion. He knows something has stopped his motion.

 

To prevent him from 'recognizing' that he can't move through the door.. that is, to ignore you, you have to do something to his mind which interfers with his ability to reason about his environment.

 

Generally, invisibility should be something that happens to you which makes you difficult or impossible to see. If you are doing something to someone else (command: "ignore me!") then you have to use another power.

 

If you were merely trying to use psionics to mimic invisibility, then perhaps you could silently get away with this. However, you have a problem of special effect.. since a person with mental defense would, logically, be less susceptable to your invisibility than a 'normal'. Xavier, from the X-men, for instance should not be subject to your invisibility.. unless your psychic character is supposed to be more powerful that him.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Invisible to Touch Group?

 

I would not permit Invisibility to Touch Group, at least not in the way described. Because the effects that it would have are better described by other powers.

 

Touch, as a sense, is completely internal. This is unlike smell which is chemicals in the air. Sight which is light reflecting. Hearing which is sound waves. And taste which is chemicals on the taste buds. Touch is a reaction to physical contact. You feel responding pressure based on how much pressure you apply.

 

There are of course variations with touch. My desk is smooth, the wall behind me is course. A burner is hot. Ice is cold. I would permit Invisibility to Heat (Touch Based) or Invisibility to Texture (Touch Based).

 

Inivisibility to Touch Group would not make you fully invisible to touch. It would only make you non-discriminatory to touch. The only way touch can not affect you is if there is nothing to "feel" which is done with Desolidification or by making them think they didn't touch you with Mental Illusions.

 

Someone mentioned a pick pocket. How does the pick pocket make the wallet Invisibile to Touch in that case? It isn't the hand touching the person that gives the pick pocket away. It is the removing of the wallet. That is better done with a 1d6 Flash Touch Group, IPE, RSR( Stealth) or maybe a Teleportation 1" Only Effects Pick Pocketted Object or something like that.

[austenandrews]

Re: Invisible to Touch Group?

 

How is this qualitatively any different than the Shadow "clouding men's minds?" Which I think most people would buy as Invisibility. Lucky's point is that adding Touch to the mix is appropriate. Of course it will have modifiers to make it into a telepathy-based power.

 

If you want to talk about edge cases where it breaks down, you can do that with any Power construct. Even Mind Control isn't going to work in the case where a person is picked up and flung to the ground, unless you get a really high roll, which doesn't scale in terms of points. At some point you're talking about an "absolute" power, which we all know Hero doesn't do well. Better to focus on the common case and whether a construct simulates the effect.

 

Inivisibility to Touch Group would not make you fully invisible to touch. It would only make you non-discriminatory to touch. The only way touch can not affect you is if there is nothing to "feel" which is done with Desolidification or by making them think they didn't touch you with Mental Illusions.

It sounds like you're arguing from Powers, not SFX. By that logic mind-based invisibility is necessarily Mental Illusions, too, because you're just "making them think they don't see you."

[austenandrews]

Re: Invisible to Touch Group?

 

I have also used it as an alternative to the "walks without a trace" abilities previously written up with Gliding.

That's a cool idea (though it sounds expensive compared to Gliding).

[MikeyMitchell]

Re: Invisible to Touch Group?Invisibility to Touch could be interpreted as "feels like something else" - in the case where you have, for example, a Chameleon power. That way, if your character is holding up against a wall with his Invisibility, someone who touches him thinks he's a part of the wall.But it's a bit weird; it overlaps with Shape Shift pretty badly.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Invisible to Touch Group?

 

Going back to Lucky's question (sorry I didn't actually address it earlier)...

 

I think Invisibility is the perfect mechanic. Reason from effects. The effect is that you can't be perceived by anyone, even people you can't perceive yourself but are nevertheless there to perceive you. That's Invisibility, pure and simple. The fact that machines without conscious minds and characters with a high EGO+Mental Defense can still see you is just a Limitation on it.

 

Think about it though. If you bought this through Mind Control, you'd need about 20d6, bought AE: Radius with gads of extra area (enough to reach the horizon) or maybe just MegaScale Area. Then you get a small Limitation to reflect that it can only make you invisible (which is it's own Power) and has no range. That's insane! Expecially since you can just spend 20 points and be Invisible to EVERYBODY regardless of their EGO and Mental Defense.

 

Besides, it states somewhere in that book that you shoudn't use Mental Powers to simulate what is effectively another Power, and you should use that other Power (I think it applies mostly to Mental Illusions, but it should apply equally to Mind Control).

[austenandrews]

Re: Invisible to Touch Group?

Invisibility to Touch could be interpreted as "feels like something else" - in the case where you have' date=' for example, a Chameleon power. That way, if your character is holding up against a wall with his Invisibility, someone who touches him thinks he's a part of the wall.But it's a bit weird; it overlaps with Shape Shift pretty badly.

[/quote'] And note that the rules specifically include Chameleon as a variant of Invisibility.

[Guest lucky]

Re: Invisible to Touch Group?

 

Well' date=' Invis would make you invisible to machines, and machines shouldn't be affected by an SEP Field.[/quote']

Incredibly expensive' date=' yes; but also very, very powerful. I mean, how many characters are even capable of attacking you when this power is going?[/quote']

I'm sorry, I should have mentioned these two caveats: I had no intention of making this power work againt machines and this power should absolutely not work in a combat situation.

 

I was planning on taking the Limitation "Does Not Work Against Machines" and another to reflect the fact that if the character performs an attack action against a target, the psionic effect is immediately broken.

 

I'm not looking to build anything too über.