Variable Power Characters in the Same Game

[Tywyll]

I am looking at a way to convert a game over to Hero, specifically Armeggedon (by Eden Studioes...). In that game, players can take the roles of normals, magi, angels, demons, old gods, psychics and others.

 

This would be a heroic level game, though probably high point total.

 

Now, the problem I'm having is figuring out a way to balance characters paying points for abilities with the normal characters who pick up weapons and armor.

 

Obviously, NCM would be a given for the normal mortals, but if joe the angel spends 30 pts to have a Celestial Fire blast that the human does for free with a pistol... I'm having issues.

 

One idea I had was to let players pay points for a perks to be of the different types. The perk would give them a Racial package or ability set, and powers within that set would be at a discount of some sort (like spells in FH, say divided by 3 or something). Nothing strange or unique would be purchaseable outside the Racial abilities.

 

This is basically how the parent game handles it... you buy a Background with your point that then adds pts to stats or gives you access to powers. The only problem with it is that the cost is not necessarily equal to the benefit gained.

 

Another "trope" of this game is that most small arms are just not as good as their supernatural equivalents (this is not always the case, rockets will kill angels quite well). I was considering using the idea of items with the REal Weapon Flaw are Reduced Penetration versus Innate Resistant Defenses.

 

Anyway, the real question is how to handle characers with super abilities mixing alongside normalsheroic characters.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Variable Power Characters in the Same Game

 

You could give the supernatural characters more base points to balance out the fact that they buy powers with points rather than just picking up equipment. Or, alternatively, you could just make sure that the normals don't have regular access to powerful equipment, thus making the powers of the supernaturals more unique and useful. I'm not real sure what the power levels are in this game, but I'm assuming that innate supernatural powers are a little more powerful than a standard handgun.

[Tywyll]

Re: Variable Power Characters in the Same Game

 

Well, actually yeah, but it depends. For instance, a Magi character could easily throw firebolts and things that are around the equivalent of your average pistol (unless they have extra time to build up their "charge") They can make shields that are much stronger than your equivalent body armor (though this takes a few rounds, better to raise your shield before combat). Without the Shield, they are just as killable as any normal human.

 

For more points, you can play a Vampyre, who like most vampire iterations are stronger, faster, tougher than humans. They have access to unique supernatural abilities. They can also learn the same magic as above.

 

For a few more points, you can play a lesser Seraphim or the child of a God. This is where the power potential really ramps up. Depending on the God you descend from, you might be a consumate warrior, able to call really powerful lighting bolts , or whatever. The Seraphim can heal from almost any injury they suffer instantly, they are very physically powerful, can create celestial weapons and armor.

 

Now, obviously, these characters are not completely balanced against each other. But they can be played in the same group. Some of this can be handled through "niche" focus. In general, I don't expect a complete norm to walk around with psychics and angels, but I expect flimsy humans, wearing bullet proof gear, to somehow be valid choices against the other character types.

 

Kind of like urban supernatural games where hunters and partial supernatural characters can exist in the same group.

[Warp9]

Re: Variable Power Characters in the Same Game

 

I am looking at a way to convert a game over to Hero, specifically Armeggedon (by Eden Studioes...). In that game, players can take the roles of normals, magi, angels, demons, old gods, psychics and others.

 

This would be a heroic level game, though probably high point total.

 

Now, the problem I'm having is figuring out a way to balance characters paying points for abilities with the normal characters who pick up weapons and armor.

I have had to deal with the same issue for my own game.

 

I never came up with a "perfect" solution, however, I ended up working with "Equipment Pools."

 

Basically a normal human has a large number of points (by default) invested in an "Equipment Pool." This Pool is a VPP which requires no skill roll to change, but can only function as available equipment. And whenever a normal chacacter picks up or carries equipment, the points for those items are built out of the pool.

 

For some types of creatures (those with impressive natural abilities), some or all of the Equipment Pool is sold off to pay for their powers.

[Tywyll]

Re: Variable Power Characters in the Same Game

 

That is the only problem I have with Hero (or any point based system actually) is that it is difficult to allow for characters of varying power level. I'm not sure of how to get around it. In some games the different power levels don't effect things that much (there are disads to playing more powerful character types, and since its not a matter of X+X pts and everyone is obstensibly "equal"). In a point based game, where you actually have a bean counter total at the bottom the descrepency can cause real issues with some players. "Why does he get more power"?

 

But with systems that don't actually show you the man behind the curtain, so to speak, you can get away with it more easily (not always, just players seem less likely to complain.

 

That gripe aside, I still prefer Hero's flexibility and ability to create any power/ability you can imagine. I just have to figure out a way to allow for the characters to be valid choices alongside each other.

[CourtFool]

Re: Variable Power Characters in the Same Game

 

I know that paying for equipment is a defining characteristic of Heroic level games, but why not...just this once, make everyone pay for equipment even though it is a Superheroic campaign?

 

You could also make the non-'normals' pay for their equipment, but the 'normals' use Resource Pools from Dark Champions.

[Tywyll]

Re: Variable Power Characters in the Same Game

 

I know that paying for equipment is a defining characteristic of Heroic level games, but why not...just this once, make everyone pay for equipment even though it is a Superheroic campaign?

 

You could also make the non-'normals' pay for their equipment, but the 'normals' use Resource Pools from Dark Champions.

 

I'm confused, paying for equipment is a defining characteristic of Superheroic games, not heroic.

 

The big issue I have with paying for equipment is that this is a "war-time" setting. Its silly and unreasonable to charge someone points for picking up a gun from one of their numerous fallen opponents, especially when they are out of ammo. And weapons aren't "signature" (except for a tiny number of exceptions) so they can all be broken, stolen, destroyed and the players shouldn't expect to get them back (just like in a non-point based game).

 

BUT... the Magi can pick up a gun too, and the angel could throw a grenade if they wanted. This doesn't unbalance the original game I am taking this from, yet it would unbalance this one where they pay for blasts and attacks et al.

 

That's my problem.

 

*Edit*

And let me add, in this setting, the supernatural characters are often simply soldiers as well. So even if I wanted to, say, allow Heroic characters and Superheroic together, with the Heroic not paying for equipment, it destroys all suspension of disbelief to say the supernatural soldiers can't loot the corpses of their enemies, especially if their own weapons are empty.

[Tom Carman]

Re: Variable Power Characters in the Same Game

 

I'm confused, paying for equipment is a defining characteristic of Superheroic games, not heroic.

 

The big issue I have with paying for equipment is that this is a "war-time" setting. Its silly and unreasonable to charge someone points for picking up a gun from one of their numerous fallen opponents, especially when they are out of ammo. And weapons aren't "signature" (except for a tiny number of exceptions) so they can all be broken, stolen, destroyed and the players shouldn't expect to get them back (just like in a non-point based game).

I believe the usual rule (for any rational GM) is "yes, you can pick up that gun and use it. If you want to keep it around permanently, you pay the points." (Though the characters better have the weapon familiarity for whatever they pick up.) The point of a VPP resource pool for the normals is to keep the power of their attacks in line with those of characters with innate power for a similar cost. We're not talking about signature weapons here, just standard issue gear. They are built as OAF, not Independent. The guns and binoculars and radios will likely get lost or trashed in the course of a game, but Supply can issue replacements after the usual b!+c#ing.

[Mordax]

Re: Variable Power Characters in the Same Game

 

And let me add' date=' in this setting, the supernatural characters are often simply soldiers as well. So even if I wanted to, say, allow Heroic characters and Superheroic together, with the Heroic not paying for equipment, it destroys all suspension of disbelief to say the supernatural soldiers can't loot the corpses of their enemies, especially if their own weapons are empty.[/quote']

Don't balance them by points. Make them all Heroic, as that is the logical choice for the campaign background. Then assign them different starting points. Let the supernatural bogies be worth more. If that really, really rankles you, give the mortal types hefty Luck in compensation.

 

Just enforce a couple of things:

- Niches. High point characters should get more points to do their schtick, not a bunch of mundane ones. Don't let the angel also be a skillmonster.

 

- High point characters should have worse vulnerabilities, especially ones which would prevent them from always being the center of attention. Frex, vampires aren't going to do a lot of daytime RP. Angels may fear to tread certain locales - or be too high profile to do certain things.

 

- Consider giving the mundane characters more XP than the supernatural ones, so they have more room to grow over time.

 

Then, just make sure that you allow everyone their chance in the spotlight.

 

Remember, game balance != point balance. Points are just a way for GMs to try and gauge who might get more than their fair share of center stage, or who might derail things. Points are a means, not an end.

 

I'm speaking from experience: my current game is a cosmic worldhopping deal that has featured such horrific power imbalances as a full on deity side by side with a really good swordsman.

 

They're not equal, in terms of capability. If I were running them under HERO, the deity would be something like 1000 points, including a world shattering VPP, while SwordGuy would've come out more like 200-300, when he got started.

 

I just do my best to make sure everybody has something meaningful to do, and everybody looks forward to it.

[Tywyll]

Re: Variable Power Characters in the Same Game

 

How do you balance encounters for such a mixed group, short of splitting the party all the time (like they do in Avengers and JLA)? Wouldn't the God easily squish the swordguy's enemies?

 

Just curious for some more detail on how you handle that kind of imbalance. Thanks for the input!

[Warp9]

Re: Variable Power Characters in the Same Game

 

Now, the problem I'm having is figuring out a way to balance characters paying points for abilities with the normal characters who pick up weapons and armor.

 

Obviously, NCM would be a given for the normal mortals, but if joe the angel spends 30 pts to have a Celestial Fire blast that the human does for free with a pistol... I'm having issues.

 

In this case you might find the exact point value of the pistol (with limitations it is much less than 30 points), and then "spot" the angel the base points of the "free" item based ability he is copying.

 

For example: Pistol 2d6 RKA OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4), Beam Weapon(-1/4), 7 charges (-1/2), Total of -2 Limitation. Total Cost of gun: 10 points

 

Of course, in a Heroic game, the character with the gun gets this 10 point ability for free.

 

Since the Angel's ability is like the pistol, and since a pistol user gets 10 points worth of power for free, then give the Angel a 10 point discount on the power.

 

The pistol user gets 10 points of power without paying, and now so does the angel. Thus the total cost of the angel's ability is (30 base minus 10 points) or 20 points.

 

 

 

There are a couple issues to watch. No matter what the discount, the ability would still have to cost the character at least 1 net point. And you'd have to be sure that the character didn't "have his cake and eat it too" (The character shouldn't get a discount for his natural armor if he can still wear regular armor).

[Mordax]

Re: Variable Power Characters in the Same Game

 

How do you balance encounters for such a mixed group, short of splitting the party all the time (like they do in Avengers and JLA)? Wouldn't the God easily squish the swordguy's enemies?

 

Just curious for some more detail on how you handle that kind of imbalance. Thanks for the input!

Happy to oblige. I've spent months ignoring conventional wisdom about GMing, and as my game is almost over, I'm in a mood to share what I learned from this high concept experiment.

 

Re: Encounter Balance:

Well, that's sort of complicated. Here goes:

 

Sword Guy had the equivalent of a full martial art, Defense Maneuver, Lightning Reflexes, Danger Sense, Missile Deflection, Rapid Attack, Tactics, and a bucket of CSLs. He also had passable investigative skills: some Tracking, Conversation, etc.

 

God Guy had a cosmic VPP...but part of the deal was: it ran off of an END Reserve which wasn't always quick to recharge (varied by location), and he was also RPed with all of the savvy and finesse of a 13 year old. (My best player got to play him, and never broke character.)

 

The limited nature of God Guy's power is a critical aspect of mixed power games, IMO: the really high end players in mixed power games should have some check on their power so that they don't dominate every situation. Limited uses are an easy, classic one (see D&D) - other stuff includes being too "noisy" (see The Belgariad), conditional (no vampire powers in daylight)...doesn't really matter. There should just be some reason the godlike beings can't walk all over the mortals in every situation.

 

Anyways, against normal enemies, Sword Guy cleaned up: his attacks tended to be stuff like "jump kick enemy A in the chest, flip off of him and slash enemy B." God Guy, on the other hand, was not that effective: he hated burning END on "mere mortals," and while his hand to hand attacks were huge, he threw them at base combat value. Skilled opponents just dodged him.

 

Against godlike threats, Sword Guy had to hang back...but God Guy wasn't actually that great without tactical assistance. He had raw power, but required the advice of the party about how to exercise it effectively. (It was hilarious when they didn't use it properly, too: on one occasion, they were attempting to prevent an Old One from devouring a world. Realizing that the problem was that The Stars Were Right, Wizard Guy suggested that God Guy might simply push the planet's moon into space and mess up the stellar alignment. God Guy got tired of waiting for a better answer and just did it, saving the planet from the Old One, but destroying the ecosphere utterly.)

 

I also made sure combat wasn't the only way to advance the plot, as these were the only two characters out of five that were particualrly suited to fighting. A lot of the game has centered on RP or puzzle solving - areas where God Guy was a great resource, but only if the other players directed him. He had no investigative skills of any kind, but could perform all sorts of tasks if clued in: Clairsentience, EDM, Invisibility, Summon, etc.

 

This was the other really key part of encounter balance: I didn't just make sure that the every player had a chance to shine. I made sure they actually had to work as a team to get a number of tasks done, combining their powers and skills creatively.

 

This is a good idea in mixed power groups: have the low powered guys make the high powered guy more effective, or vice versa. If everybody is a key to success together, there'll be less resentment about power imbalances within the team. (Frex, the angel might do some Flash attack to blind the opposition so the normal guys can machine gun them down safely, or whatever.)

 

Anyways, hope that helped. If not, I'll be happy to blather more.

[Tywyll]

Re: Variable Power Characters in the Same Game

 

Thanks Mordax, that does help. I wouldn't mind hearing more about your game and any time you felt perhaps that the balance issues didn't work out well, or at least potential pit falls you encountered.

 

Sounds like a great game though. Would have been interested in seeing it. Thanks again.

[That Masked Man]

Re: Variable Power Characters in the Same Game

 

I have had similar thoughts concerning an upcoming game of mine that mixes psionics, magic, and technology. While it doesn't quite work for the game I want to do, one possibility I considered was to allow each player to choose whether he wanted to play a heroic or a superheroic character type. Both would have the same base points, but heroic characters would have fewer disads. Heroic characters could use normal items for free but have NCM. Superheroic characters would have no NCM but would have to pay points for all powers. They would also have certain disadvantages based on the source of their powers. Unlike true supers these sources would be of a limited number of types, all of which would have some type of disadvantages associated with them. The points wouldn't be equal between the two, but I think with enough care to enforce the limitations of the superheroic characters, most player groups would accept it.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Variable Power Characters in the Same Game

 

Uhm...

 

Non-powered humans =/= weak. See: Batman.

 

Another option is to build everyone on the same, relatively high, point value. (With Heroic rules if y'want to). Just have the 'mere humans' be good at different thigns from the supernaturals.

 

After all, there are many Powers (game term) that don't have to be powers (descriptive term). Taking a power to be a really good shot, and thus do more damage with a gun, is hardly implausible.... and then there's combat luck and it's relatives ("Why hasn't he become a smear yet?" "Dunno.").

[Mordax]

Re: Variable Power Characters in the Same Game

 

Thanks Mordax, that does help. I wouldn't mind hearing more about your game and any time you felt perhaps that the balance issues didn't work out well, or at least potential pit falls you encountered.

 

Sounds like a great game though. Would have been interested in seeing it. Thanks again.

Happy to help. And yeah, it's been great. The game is set in my pet universe, and after about four games in it, this is the first time I've really gotten to show it off.

 

(All the original games used the HERO system - I still have a ton of applicable notes that I eventually hope to turn into a website or something...)

 

The other characters in my group were:

- An East Coast EMT who became the living embodiment of The Pilgrim and The Fool, able to travel between worlds under his own power, and find virtually anything.

 

(He was probably the most powerful member of the group, even exceeding God Guy in some venues. His check was that he was the plot hook guy: the forces that invested him with supernatural power could also direct his movements, and give him cryptic visions of what he was Supposed To Do.)

 

- A powerful wizard from, effectively, Dark Sun.

 

- A mutant psionic archaeologist from a post apocalyptic world. Like The Pilgrim, he's an archetype of some sort, but his powers don't work properly, and both he and his world are slowly ceasing to exist.

 

- A video store clerk with quasi-omniscience. (He'd be a discussion about game balance all on its own: he could tap into the collective unconscious of a world, and had a chance to know things anybody anywhere there knew).

 

And, as replacements when earlier characters were written out:

 

- A cyborg from a dimension spanning secret society. He replaced God Guy, who is now on more of a "cameo appearance" status.

 

- A networked intelligence composed of countless Psychically Bonded Duplicates (mild variance, incapable of recombination, or even occupying the same universe), one per human occupied world. It exists across a swath of space so vast that it defies measurement: his character sheet actually has "functional immortality" written on it, since nobody could catch all his dupes. He replaced the all knowing video store clerk.

 

As for difficulties, let's see:

Keeping the party together:

Some of my party members were vastly more mobile than others, and sometimes it was hard to rein them in enough to keep group cohesion.

 

This problem would probably be easier to handle in a less worldhopping/epic scenario, but any time you have fliers or desolid guys or whatever, the group will split up. Often right before the big fight of the evening, too.

 

Underutilized abilities:

Between the scenarios I presented, and choices the players made, some characters didn't get to use major aspects of their abilities much.

 

For instance, the wizard had a lot of infiltration skills, and a good shape shifting ability, and I don't think they were ever used to advance the plot. He was frustrated enough with it that I arranged a radiation accident to swap the power out for something else, eventually. If I ever do this again, I'm going to think more carefully about how well all the power sets mesh - in retrospect, I should've known they'd never spy.

 

Hrm. I had a few other issues, but they were more facets of my campaign world, than difficulties from mixed power groups: dealing with freeform/VPP abilities, dealing with monstrous information powers, etc.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Variable Power Characters in the Same Game

 

A possible solution to the original problem presented itself to me as I was reading through the thread... Start all the players with the same base points, and Heroic rules, but vary the maximum number of disads based on character type, and make sure that a good chunk of any extra disads above the "human" scale are in the nature of supernatural disads.. vunerabilites, suceptibilities, physical or psyhce disads as "prohibitions" (like "can't cross running water" or "afraid of churchbells")

This way, you might have 200 point Heros running around with a 350 point supernatural being... but the supernatural critter will have a healthy amount of weaknesses to counterbalance his superior power level. It'd probably help for you to write up some good starting "racial" packages... some of the ancestry packages from FH (divine, infernal, vampire, perhaps the elementals) and some of the Creature Templates from the bestiary might be a good staring point.

Now..do you use NCM? I'd have to think that one through a bit. Really, I'd say it kinda depends on the feel you're going for. For an American Gods type game, I'd say yes. For a more fantastical game (Hellboy, Constantine, or Prophecy style) I'd probably rule that base characters must take NCM but get full point value for the disad, and "otherkin" may take the disad or not, as prefered and as appropriate.