Drain, drain, go away

[Sean Waters]

I was surprised by the response to MikeyMitchell's question in the Rules Questions forum

 

http://herogame.dans.cust.servlets.net/forums/showthread.php?t=28762

 

Seems like far too much book keeping, especially as you should (apparently) track each drain even if it is from the same source.

 

I've never tracked drains individually: has anyone else?

[MikeyMitchell]

Re: Drain, drain, go away

I was surprised by the response to MikeyMitchell's question in the Rules Questions forumhttp://herogame.dans.cust.servlets.net/forums/showthread.php?t=28762Seems like far too much book keeping' date=' especially as you should (apparently) track each drain even if it is from the same source.I've never tracked drains individually: has anyone else?[/quote']No. And Steve's answer surprises me too. Got to track every attack...ick.Generates another painful question. What if you use something like Aid or Absorption? Does the same principle apply - that every time you Absorb points, for example, you have to track it separately?That makes Adjustment Powers a lot less attractive, if for no other reason than in increased bookkeeping.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Drain, drain, go away

No. And Steve's answer surprises me too. Got to track every attack...ick.Generates another painful question. What if you use something like Aid or Absorption? Does the same principle apply - that every time you Absorb points' date=' for example, you have to track it separately?That makes Adjustment Powers a lot less attractive, if for no other reason than in increased bookkeeping.

[/quote']I'd been steering clear of that one! Can you imagine trying to keep your aid topped up? It would mean you would have to buy all adjustment powers with the slow fade advantage to make them worth bothering with.Adjustment powers were cut back in power for 5th ed already. This seems like nailing the coffin lid down.Perhaps Mr Long will reconsider the position?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Drain, drain, go away

 

I'd been steering clear of that one! Can you imagine trying to keep your aid topped up?

 

First off, I think this has to be consistent. If a person hit 5 times with an STR drain gets 25 points back per tunr, a character assisted 5 times by an Aid should lose 25 points per turn.

 

Second, I disagree with Steve's response (as you already know), as does my gaming group (from discussions last night) so I expect we will stay with "recover 5 CP per time increment, from each abilkity drained or enhanced".

 

It would mean you would have to buy all adjustment powers with the slow fade advantage to make them worth bothering with.

 

Third, it seems to me that virtually all adjustment powers will want "decreased fade rate - 1 minute". Battles rarely last a minute, so recovery every minute, 5 minutes or 20 minutes are more or less equivalent - they pretty much last the battle and fade by the next one. But 1 turn to 1 minute is already significant, and becomes nearly mandatory for a character relying on adjustment powers used in combat. This implies that the change from 1 turn to 1 minute is worth a lot more than +1/4. Rather than change the advantage scaling, I'd rather just rule that "1 recovery means ONE recovery".

 

Adjustment powers were cut back in power for 5th ed already. This seems like nailing the coffin lid down.

 

For those following the various rulings I would consider unreasonable, it certainly does. For the rest of us, I expect them to remain viable.

 

Perhaps Mr Long will reconsider the position?

 

Can I rephrase that? Perhaps Mr. Long's comments have been interpreted too broadly by us, and he will clarify them to settle the controversy.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Drain, drain, go away

 

Can I rephrase that? Perhaps Mr. Long's comments have been interpreted too broadly by us' date=' and he will clarify them to settle the controversy.[/quote']

 

Can I congratulate you on your perspicacity. Come to think of it I'm sure I misread it.....

[Sean Waters]

Re: Drain, drain, go away

 

Hadn't noticed before, but someone is already on this point:

 

http://herogame.dans.cust.servlets.net/forums/showthread.php?t=28767

[TheRealVector]

Re: Drain, drain, go away

 

I have not tracked Drains seperately in the past and don't want to. Thus, a new house rule is born.

[simplygnome]

Re: Drain, drain, go away

 

I actually do not beleive, unless I missed a post somewhere, that AID and TRANSFER were implied in the rules about Drain...

 

The main difference between Drain and both Aid and Transfer is that Drain has no maximum value, while the other two do.

 

In this case, Aid and Transfer both have a maximum "ceiling" that they hit, and they fade at 5 pts per turn...A 4d6 Aid Str (24 limit), used 2 times to hit their aid max will only lose 5 points of that.

 

A Drain on the other hand can be used continuously, stacking its effects with not hard cap....This, as Ive seen, can be VERY game breaking, thus the multiple return rates. A person with 4d6 Drain Str (no upper limit), uses it two times, draining anywhere from 4 to 24 per drain (so thats 8 to 48 pts of str now gone), will have his victim regain 10 of that back per turn. Now, Mr.Drain can just keep applying the Drain, keeping his str at a virtual 0, while Mr Aid has a steady cap that he can't break.

 

I see it as a very fair trade. This is how I interpret it, but I may be wrong....However considering the nature of Aids, Transfers, and the like, I beleive they are separate from Drains in that ruling.

 

To me giving a Drain a one minute delay rate while only letting multiple uses go away at a 5 per turn (minute in this case) instead of 5 per application would make an easily over powered ability.

 

While I havent had to deal with the horrid paperwork (yet), I will fully accept it so that balance can be maintained, IMHO.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Drain, drain, go away

 

Steve's reply does not surprise me at all. Not only is it how I've always assumed Adjustment Powers have always worked, I've been disagreeing with a lot of Steve's rules interpretations for years.

 

The way I see it, if you use your REC to recover from the total loss of STUN per Turn, the same should be applied for Adjustment Powers. It's how I've done it, and I think it's fair.

[zornwil]

Re: Drain, drain, go away

 

I somewhat agree with Steve's ruling, but first, let me say, that I was not surprised by it because somewhere along the line I did hear this, probably in the FAQ, and I do think that it makes some sense.

 

This is my take, though. If the Drains are of the same general SFX, more or less, I simply make them addiitive, REC is against that total (i.e., just one recovery against all that damage), and it is tracked as a total. However, if the Drains were markedly different, I would rule the opposite. Let me give two examples:

 

More or less same general SFX, track as one Drain - an energy beam that destroys the chemicals that contribute to willpower and a device that does the same; I would even throw in a mage's spell if that spell is specifically sapping willpower in the sense that the person is really losing willpower in general

 

Not at all the same even if it seems it - Batman cuts the Joker's tendon in his left hand and diminishes his DEX; Green Arrow shoots an arrow into Joker's right hand and diminishes his DEX; the Joker should recover in both places at the same rate (now if they'd been smart enough to shoot at the same hand...)

 

Uh-uh, no way do these add together - the mage's sapping of willpower following the example above is instead based on the victim's illusion that his situation is hopeless because he thinks he already lost (essentially, it's built as Drain but there's actually a mental illusion involved); in this situation, the recovery against the illusion is one thing but the recovery against the loss of "chemical X" is another

 

Thankfully, though, I just haven't had to deal with this in actual games!