HERO system observations and beefs

[atlascott]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

Ok, but we now HAVE the toolkit. Why would doing things to get the non-tinkerer business affect your desire to use and buy HERO products?

 

End of the day, if 2/3 of people who play RPG's are not tinkerers, then for every one of us lost, HERO gains 2 sales. This is a business, after all, and these guys need a return on their investment.

 

There are far fewer people playing HERO now than 10 years ago, based on my estimation and knowledge of the gaming community. Maybe legions and legions overstates it, but it is the one criticism I hear from everyone who doesnt play it anymore, or hasnt tried it.

[MitchellS]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

If Hero starts focusing on the same prepackaged stuff as everyone else' date=' well maybe they will get more salees, but they'll probably lose mine, FWIW.[/quote']

In case you hadn't noticed Hero is doing the same prepackage stuff as everyone else: monster books [CKC, AA, MMM, Beastiary], setting books [CU, TTA, TVA, MC,VB,TE, AW], magic books [uSPD, USPD2, FHG, FHG2], etc. The difference is that Hero is not doing it in a way which appeals to potential new buyers.

[zornwil]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

(heavy snippage)

 

Look back at your last 10 game purchases. What got you to drop coin on the table?

 

Coin??? I want to shop where you do! I have to use plastic or paper!

 

 

Review your own purchases over the last year. Did you make the purchases by looking at the product and exlaiming "Wow, 600 pages!" or "Holy smokes, look at all these rules!" or "Wow, powered by d20"!

 

On a serious note, actually, I have read things because they looked really crunchy, so kind of, yes! It is the tinkerer's thing you mentioned in the post.

 

Just saying - regardless, many including me do buy products based on their appeal to pure roleplaying.

 

Or, we can stick with the idea that the crunchiest, best game system will eventually win out. But be warned, Marketing is a real discipline, and after production, is the MOST important part of any business.

 

To be fair, it's not a matter of "win out", it is a matter (to me) of maintaining a sizeable enough audience that whoever publishes HERO is motivated to maintain (properly) the product. I imagine to DOJ they have a target of profitability at which they wish to minimally maintain and a target at which they hope to aspire, whatever size that may reasonably be.

 

I don't think HERO EVER will or can be the industry giant. Heck, I hope it's not, I don't want it to be owned by a Hasbro or Mattel. I think it's appeal will always be to a relatively small but reasonably affluent population of the tabletop RPG spectrum.

 

All that being said, yes, marketing is key. No matter how good a product, it will not survive, let alone flourish, without some suitable marketing.

[zornwil]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

Edit:Oh forget it. This thread has been "won" already.

Thanks for acknowledging my victory!

 

 

[buzz]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

The difference is that Hero is not doing it in a way which appeals to potential new buyers.

How do we know this?

 

And I repeat my "zero to HERO" argument from before.

[nexus]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

In case you hadn't noticed Hero is doing the same prepackage stuff as everyone else: monster books [CKC' date= AA, MMM, Beastiary], setting books [CU, TTA, TVA, MC,VB,TE, AW], magic books [uSPD, USPD2, FHG, FHG2], etc. The difference is that Hero is not doing it in a way which appeals to potential new buyers.

 

 

I've noticed. and I've purchased. Because I use THAT sort of thing in building my own worlds. Its not crammed into the specific mold of a pregenerated world. USPD, for example useful to just about any Superhero setting. Beastiary is generic. CKC and such, less so but the work involved is minimal, some with Grimores.

 

If they start putting out stuff set for a specfic, single game world. It will be much less useful to me.

[buzz]

Re: My two cents

 

With all due respect' date=' I say poppycock! My SAS d20 book says "Requires the use of the Dungeons & Dragons, Third Edition Core Books, published by Wizards of the Coast"...[/quote']

This is an issue withe the d20 STL. Every d20 game is essentially "all-in-one". You don't "graduate" to the D&D PHB becasue you bought SWd20. The comparison doesn't work.

[atlascott]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

"I get endless use out of my Star Hero and Fantasy Hero. I found them inspiring. Fantasy Hero alone breathed new life into my Fantasy campaign and spawned to other. Turkanian left me kind of flat, on the other hand. The genre books got a deal of critical acclaim. I just don't see what is so horrible and going to sink DOJ by writing more of them."

 

For a guy who claims you have nothing but ideas, I am amazed that you are 'inspired' by Star Hero and Fantasy Hero. Aren't they just books with more ideas in them? You seem like a very experienced gamer. Those two books strike me as books that should be read by someone who has never read science fiction or watched sci-fi movies. Or someone who has never heard of/played D&D or seen Conan or other sword and scorery movies. It's cool that you like them, and as I said, many people do, I guess.

 

Producing ANY product means you are using resources (time, money, energy) that you MIGHT have used in a different way. If our premise is that the best way to enure the existence of HERO is by making sure its owners get richly rewarded with maximum sales and cash for every product, then, it is simply a matter of maximizing the sales per unit of the products they sell by making the right DECISIONS as to what to produce. In other words, you might make the best soap in the world, but in a desert with no water, you arent going to be selling much. You should have invested in bottled water! It is my position that well-done genre books with stripped down sidekick rules will sell more units than 'how to play in a genre' books. I could be wrong, but for the reasons cited above, I dont think I am--I think it would be a great move.

[zornwil]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

How do we know this?

 

And I repeat my "zero to HERO" argument from before.

To be fair, I think we know this based on DOJ's own statements, and they (likely) aren't about to lie about not doing as well as they'd like.

[zornwil]

Re: My two cents

 

This is an issue withe the d20 STL. Every d20 game is essentially "all-in-one". You don't "graduate" to the D&D PHB becasue you bought SWd20. The comparison doesn't work.

I've glimpsed at the D&D core d20 book, I just can't agree with your statement. There's definitely a whole lot more at the core than either of the spin-off products I read would indicate at a surface reading.

[zornwil]

Re: My two cents

 

PS - putting in a separate post so you don't miss it otherwise - also let me say a friend of mine feels strongly that 3.5 is now a much more consistent and holistic system than it was and doing something HERO should be doing - now you can take or leave that statement in and of itself by all means (I certainly can't speak to it, but I'll point out he likes HERO as a system quite a bit), but I think that to dismiss that there's not a core system is just unfair, wrong, and unsupported by their own user base and posts I've seen from among them.

[buzz]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

Instead' date=' HERO has been criticized as being too complicated or too much work by the LEGIONS AND LEGIONS of RPG'er who play games like Vampire, etc.--the role player, not the rules lawyers or wargamers in RPG'ers shoes. [/quote']

Bullpucky. "Legions and legions" of people rag on D&D/d20 all day, every day, too. It hasn't stopped d20 from being a huge success. HERO, in one form or another, has been nominated and won myriad awards, and is in the Hall of Fame of multiple magazines/fan communities. Why buy into what the naysayers say? They're full of it.

 

Or' date=' we can stick with the idea that the crunchiest, best game system will eventually win out. But be warned, Marketing is a real discipline, and after production, is the MOST important part of any business.[/quote']

Right. And a big part of marketing is knowing your product and knowing your audience. Not transforming your product to meet what you think are the needs of your audience.

 

I'm just not really seeing evidence that this "problem" we're trying to solve really exists, ergo, I don't see the need for the proposed solution. (Though I agree with the effort to "humanize" HERO books.)

[MitchellS]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

Edit:Oh forget it. This thread has been "won" already.

It's not about winning or losing. It's about finding a way for DoJ to attract new fans to the Hero System so the company can remain in business. The only current plan DoJ seems to have is to ask us to change our buying habits. It only seems fair that if DoJ is willing to ask us to change our buying habits to help them then they should be willing to look at making changes to help themselves as well. No matter how much the tinkerers love the system as it is the majority of RPG fans are not tinkerers; and it is possible to cater to both groups without one feeling left out.

[zornwil]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

"I get endless use out of my Star Hero and Fantasy Hero. I found them inspiring. Fantasy Hero alone breathed new life into my Fantasy campaign and spawned to other. Turkanian left me kind of flat, on the other hand. The genre books got a deal of critical acclaim. I just don't see what is so horrible and going to sink DOJ by writing more of them."

 

For a guy who claims you have nothing but ideas, I am amazed that you are 'inspired' by Star Hero and Fantasy Hero. Aren't they just books with more ideas in them? You seem like a very experienced gamer. Those two books strike me as books that should be read by someone who has never read science fiction or watched sci-fi movies. Or someone who has never heard of/played D&D or seen Conan or other sword and scorery movies. It's cool that you like them, and as I said, many people do, I guess.

 

Producing ANY product means you are using resources (time, money, energy) that you MIGHT have used in a different way. If our premise is that the best way to enure the existence of HERO is by making sure its owners get richly rewarded with maximum sales and cash for every product, then, it is simply a matter of maximizing the sales per unit of the products they sell by making the right DECISIONS as to what to produce. In other words, you might make the best soap in the world, but in a desert with no water, you arent going to be selling much. You should have invested in bottled water! It is my position that well-done genre books with stripped down sidekick rules will sell more units than 'how to play in a genre' books. I could be wrong, but for the reasons cited above, I dont think I am--I think it would be a great move.

Atlascott, I think the point you might be missing in how I and others read some of these genre (or uber-genre) books is that the value in these books is they break it down and treat the subjects with a certain rigor, essentially creating "genre toolkits". In this manner they are very useful because they cover a lot of ground and give the basis for how you would administer the genre in GMing/play. I think the approach is great, personally, and I for one do NOT want to see the basics of these books change at all, I just would like to see a more narrative approach to them.

[buzz]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

To be fair' date=' I think we know this based on DOJ's own statements, and they (likely) aren't about to lie about not doing as well as they'd like.[/quote']

But there isn't necesarily a conncetion between having a rough year and a need to change the product. I'm not seeing any proof that people jumping ship for lite systems is the issue.

[nexus]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

Ok, but we now HAVE the toolkit. Why would doing things to get the non-tinkerer business affect your desire to use and buy HERO products?

 

Because specific setting focused material is of no use to me or most of the Hero gamers I know personally.

 

End of the day, if 2/3 of people who play RPG's are not tinkerers, then for every one of us lost, HERO gains 2 sales. This is a business, after all, and these guys need a return on their investment.

 

The 2/3rds comes from what? Personal observation? Anecdotal evidence from places like RPG.net? I hear an awful lot of "I love this setting but I'm changing to system X" and "I'm cominng up with Homebrew rules for X" and "Here's my housefules for Y!" for Tinkerers to be such a vast minority. But again, there isn't any true market data available so all we can rely on in opinion and its human nature to consider your opinion to be the "correct" and dominate one.

 

There are far fewer people playing HERO now than 10 years ago, based on my estimation and knowledge of the gaming community. Maybe legions and legions overstates it, but it is the one criticism I hear from everyone who doesnt play it anymore, or hasnt tried it.

 

I honestly hear many criticsims about Hero. Some of them valid, some of the pure BS. The system isn't for everyone. That's a fact. No system is. Tastes change sometimes. Dulling things down to draw them back isn't the right answer, IMO. Fewer people are playing ALL rpgs right now, the market is in a slump.

[zornwil]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

Bullpucky. "Legions and legions" of people rag on D&D/d20 all day, every day, too. It hasn't stopped d20 from being a huge success. HERO, in one form or another, has been nominated and won myriad awards, and is in the Hall of Fame of multiple magazines/fan communities. Why buy into what the naysayers say? They're full of it.

 

 

Right. And a big part of marketing is knowing your product and knowing your audience. Not transforming your product to meet what you think are the needs of your audience.

 

I'm just not really seeing evidence that this "problem" we're trying to solve really exists, ergo, I don't see the need for the proposed solution. (Though I agree with the effort to "humanize" HERO books.)

 

Buzz, who specifically is suggesting that we "transform" the product?

[buzz]

Re: My two cents

 

I've glimpsed at the D&D core d20 book' date=' I just can't agree with your statement. There's definitely a whole lot more at the core than either of the spin-off products I read would indicate at a surface reading.[/quote']

No. There is no "generic" d20 "core". There is D&D and the open-source material that has been released form it. A bunch of RPGs have built off the D&D core to create new RPGs that appeal to peole who know how to play D&D. They are absolutely nothing like what is being discussed here.

[zornwil]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

It's not about winning or losing. It's about finding a way for DoJ to attract new fans to the Hero System so the company can remain in business. The only current plan DoJ seems to have is to ask us to change our buying habits. It only seems fair that if DoJ is willing to ask us to change our buying habits to help them then they should be willing to look at making changes to help themselves as well. No matter how much the tinkerers love the system as it is the majority of RPG fans are not tinkerers; and it is possible to cater to both groups without one feeling left out.

Partly sigged! Will rep.

 

There is too much presumed division here. Almost no one (and I think no one in this thread at all) has advocated HERO stop being the crunchy well-engineered tool that it is. Few if any have suggested even any substantive rules change at all to accomplish a marketing transformation. What is being suggested, primarily, is additional steps or revamps of the presentation.

[zornwil]

Re: My two cents

 

No. There is no "generic" d20 "core". There is D&D and the open-source material that has been released form it. A bunch of RPGs have built off the D&D core to create new RPGs that appeal to peole who know how to play D&D. They are absolutely nothing like what is being discussed here.

I see what you're saying, we're not talking about precisely the same things.

 

I know for a fact that d20 is not a universal system and has no universal or generic core.

 

HOWEVER, it does have a core rules engine, it has mechanisms codified which are to then be replicated as appropriate to any spin-off products. Understanding not only these core rules but any underlying metarules allows one to derive games and is just plain interesting if the system is interesting.

 

The spin-off products and word-of-mouth then help to sell these "core" (depending on how you want to use that term I'll put it in quotes) books. Like to me, who had no interest whatsoever prior to the last year in such.

[MitchellS]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

I've noticed. and I've purchased. Because I use THAT sort of thing in building my own worlds. Its not crammed into the specific mold of a pregenerated world. USPD, for example useful to just about any Superhero setting. Beastiary is generic. CKC and such, less so but the work involved is minimal, some with Grimores.

 

If they start putting out stuff set for a specfic, single game world. It will be much less useful to me.

Your talking in circles here. The vast majority of Champions material is for a pregenerated worlds: The Champions Universe. The fact that you can use it in your own world is superfluous. I can use M&M material in my world too. That has nothing to do with anything.

 

And keep in mind that no one is asking for DoJ to change the Hero System or for them to begin an entire new lite product line. What most of us are asking for is a single product that makes it easier for someone to get into playing the Hero System. No matter how cheap Sidekick is if a buyer can't conceptualize how it can be used it's still a useless product.

[nexus]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

"

For a guy who claims you have nothing but ideas, I am amazed that you are 'inspired' by Star Hero and Fantasy Hero. Aren't they just books with more ideas in them? You seem like a very experienced gamer. Those two books strike me as books that should be read by someone who has never read science fiction or watched sci-fi movies. Or someone who has never heard of/played D&D or seen Conan or other sword and scorery movies. It's cool that you like them, and as I said, many people do, I guess.

 

There's alot more to fantasy than D and D and Conan movies...

 

They inspired, gave me more idea and why to implement and opened my eyes to even more possbilities on top the ones I had. You can always learn something more, IMO. The in depth discussion of the topics involved in creating your own sci fi and fantasy worlds was much more useful and inspiring to me than yet another already created world. Ideas and suggestions are great, I don't need premade parts. For comparison, I like a well stocked Kitchen with excellent ingredients to prepare my own dishes. I don't need premade dinners, even if well done.

 

I'll even give you the point that "Champions" wasn't very useful to me, because it didn't go into enough new detail. It did feel like a basic primer where as Fantasy Hero and Star Hero were in depth explorations of the genre. Champions could have been more developed is something I've heard from others that really liked the genre books. Ninja Hero was lighter but well done, to the point it inspired a friend of mine with no interest in running a martial arts game into starting one. As did Dark Champions.

 

I could be wrong, but for the reasons cited above, I dont think I am--I think it would be a great move.

 

Then we'll have to agree to disagree. In the end it doesn't matter. Its what DOJ thinks that does.

[zornwil]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

Because specific setting focused material is of no use to me or most of the Hero gamers I know personally.

 

Just for the record, no use to me either, aside from a rare exception or material for inspiration.

 

(stuff snipped)

 

I honestly hear many criticsims about Hero. Some of them valid, some of the pure BS. The system isn't for everyone. That's a fact. No system is. Tastes change sometimes. Dulling things down to draw them back isn't the right answer, IMO. Fewer people are playing ALL rpgs right now, the market is in a slump.

 

Who is suggesting the system is for everyone?

 

Who is suggesting the system be dulled down?

 

As to the market, it appears that a positive year at WOTC have been reported. Perhaps they're lying. If they're not, though, it means there is room to maneuver in this market. Regardless, if the market is in a slump, this is a MORE imperative issue! It is all the MORE reason to look at how to attract new gamers.

[nexus]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

Your talking in circles here. The vast majority of Champions material is for a pregenerated worlds: The Champions Universe. The fact that you can use it in your own world is superfluous. I can use M&M material in my world too. That has nothing to do with anything.

 

I don't read alot of the Champions sourcebooks. I get them to mine for ideas occasionally and support DOJ as much as I can. I use books like USPD much more because they are generic. So is the Beastiaries and the genre books. I can use the Champions Universe books for my own world, but I can use the SAS books, Marvel Books, etc, in the same fashion. Its easier because I don't have to convert the system. You're right though, that has nothing to do with anything and it wasn't the point of what I was saying. I prefer generic use books over setting specific books. I thought I was being fairly clear.

 

And keep in mind that no one is asking for DoJ to change the Hero System or for them to begin an entire new lite product line. What most of us are asking for is a single product that makes it easier for someone to get into playing the Hero System. No matter how cheap Sidekick is if a buyer can't conceptualize how it can be used it's still a useless product.

 

Hm, I know at least a few people that sidekick brought in, but I don't have the market proof. I just hardly say its "useless".

[zornwil]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

Yeah, good point, Sidekick was far from useless, in fact it's quite good, and people have come to these boards based on that, so there is good allegorical evidence it's been useful.