HERO system observations and beefs

[Enforcer84]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

Oh, yes, there was new art in 5thEd. Because I did much of it. About 10 pieces, I believe. And I think there were a few new pieces by Greg Smith as well. However, it does fall in the minority.

 

I'm sorry that many folks don't like the artwork. I bust my hump trying to do artwork that I think is interesting to y'all and this is as important, fun for me to do. I know that color sells... but it just ain't happening in a small print run like we've been having for Hero products. So I try to do the next best thing, by having texture and shading and doing grayscale (in color, hoping down the line there will come for the call to do the color) and not just black line drawings... which at this point in my career, bore the pants off of me doing.

 

And bottom line? This might sound egotistical, but I don't care.... I'll put my artwork against anyone in the business and feel fine doing it. Certainly there are folks better than me, but not many and not by much.... except for the great oil painters like Brom, Parkinson and Whelan. My painting isn't up to their level.... but I'm a'tryin'.

Storn, I have complained about the art in recent HERO books, but never yours. If they could get you to do the art for an entire book it would be a very pretty book to look at. HERO's artist have run the gamut from Subpar to Amazing. And sometimes even art that isn't "Top notch" can be beloved. I will forever link Mark Williams' work with HERO and Jeff Dee's V&V art with my childhood and I love that. As I have gotten older I have been lucky enough to see and own your work, Andrew Cremins, Chris Stevens, Gregg Smith, and Davenpoe. I just wish I could see more.

[Enforcer84]

Re: My two cents

 

To those who think there's an idleness, a lack of need/purpose, for HERO to support or directly do an "all in one game", please see KA's excellent post at http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=646149&postcount=1 - it's so simple I think people miss some salient points as they nod their heads and say, "Yes, but..."

 

KA made a particular statement that struck me:

 

 

 

We should not forget these humble beginnings that got so many of us into this game.

 

Speaking for myself, I don't want to be among the last 10 guys playing this game.

Then invite me over, I'll make it 11.

[Enforcer84]

Re: My two cents

 

When I started gaming, much like KA most games came in a box. They were 50-100 pages and you bought modules and "villians books". Now? pages in the 100s you buy source books and settings. But I like it. I bought 5e for myself and my old gaming group. But I don't really need it, I've had 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th edition, by now I can play HERO in my sleep. DOJ has done a good job at fine tuning the system. They have brought us Ultimate Books to further delve into the classic HERO archetypes. They have given us 4-5 settings to use and truely neat products like ready made powers, gadgets, and vehicles. And I have to say HERO's universe, like it or loathe it still falls on the original side of the tracks. I've read almost every Superhero RPG system and the villains and NPC's they make don't have the appeal. Sure, I am a drooling fan boy, but that doesn't mean I can't rant like the rest of you

[MitchellS]

Re: My two cents

 

I simply think that the answer to the "problem" being discussed is not to change the fundamental nature of the system' date=' nor to appeal to the types of gamers who won't be interested in the full product. People always put forth the idea of simplification as the cure-all to the popularity of RPGs as a whole, or in this case, to a specific game. And it's almost always wrong. I know from what I've read from many of D&D's designers that the increased crunchiness has been a huge DRAW.[/quote']

People only put forth the idea of simplification when dealing with games which are overly complex. Some of the most popular games out right now are games which don't have the appearance of complexity. Hero waves the complexity in people's faces while most other games slide it in the back door when no one is looking. No one is asking to dumb down Hero. What we are suggesting is an easier entrance way for people who do not have a grasp of what the Hero System is.

 

I would put for the idea that 75% of the people who play Hero started with the Champions basic set of 1st through 3rd edition. The other 25% were brought into the game either by existing players or by learning it themselves [and even then most of them learned it from the more intuitive 4E]. DoJ's marketing philosophy has now reversed that trend. They are saying that all new people should come from the 25% bracket of either learning it from existing gamers or by them trying to learn it on their own from either 5Er or Sidekick [and yes that is a 128 page option, but it's still a toolkit not a game].

 

The appeal of Hero for 20 years has been Champions. Even to this day DoJ struggles against the idea of people calling the game Champions but that is what it will always be to many of us. You're not boiling it down to anything. You're showing people what it's potential is. Right now people don't really grasp what the potential of the system is; or in order to grasp it they need to spend a great deal of money to buy several books.

 

I think you give too much mental credit to most gamers. You assume that people are smart enough to figure out the benefits of Hero for themselves [That is a possible process but it's a slow process]. I work under the assumption that there are thousands of gamers out there with money burning holes in their pockets who are looking for things to buy if they're intrigued by a product. Most of these gamers are younger and they don't want text books to read [they get enough of that in school]. They want products which stimulate their imagination first and their mind second. If you can capture their imaginations you can get many of them to expand their minds.

 

No one is talking about dumbing down Hero or changing the rules. What many of us are talking about is just trying to find a way to A: Let new gamers understand what Hero can be used for. B: Give new gamers the same degree of "flash' in presentation that they are getting from virtually every other 1st or 2nd tier game company. C: Make it easier for potential new gamers to get involved with the game system in the same manner which we did - by playing with a game, not trying to design from a toolkit.

 

I completely understand your passion, and I share it to a great degree, but I also understand that the Hero System people are asked to learn now is unfocused, dry, verbose, and for many people uninspiring due to its size and complexity. DoJ is asking people to take an analytical approach to learning the system. Most people just want to play a game.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

Lots of interesting discussion here.

 

To the "Generic vs Specific" debate. it seems to me that, through most of Hero's histpry, it was a series of "Fueled by Hero System" games. We started with Champions, then Espionage, Justice Inc., Danger International, Fantasy Hero, and several other titles. Although the system was designed to be universal, the package worked with the game and genre first, using but not touting the overall system.

 

With 4e, there was a bit of a change. However, the 4e rulebook was still clearly a Supers product (come on, look at that George Perez cover - are you seriously going to suggest Fantasy and Sci Fi gamers were picking it up when they saw it on the shelf?). But it was the first shift to a more systems-oriented structure. We got the standalone rules book, followed by a few genre products, like Fantasy Hero. But even here, the genre books were much more a "game system" than the 5e genre books. Prior editions of Fantasy Hero presented the full-blown magic system, not options for creating a magic system.

 

It is only with 5e that the system has dominated the game aspect. While I like the 5e approach, like many others on the Boards I started with "Champions", not "Hero", though in my case the 1e 64 page book. I wasn't into spy games, so I didn't buy Espionage. I wasn't playing pulp, so no Justice Inc. And, as a novice gamer at that point, I doubt I would have bought "The System" without the game behind it.

 

Should Hero switch wholesale to "Fueled by Hero" games? No, I don't think so. I can't even say for certain that such an approach would enhance the company's prospects, rather than fall flat on its face. But I do think it might be a worthwhile experiment, and could attract a lot more gamers to the Hero System itself. "Champions Sidekick" (excerpts from CKC, Champions, maybe USPD and CU designed to create a Champions game using only Sidekick rules), perhaps bundled with Sidekick itself, may atract gamers looking for "D&D, but with suerheroes" away from other Supers games that are presented in a single package. And it may stimulate sales of the full CU, the full CKC, full USPD and the other Champions supplements, even by gamers who never choose to buy the full Hero rules. It may also stimutate interest in the full rules set, and thus Champuions and even other genre products.

 

I think that, if pursued, Champions is the logical starting point, since it has a lot of supplemental material which may see increased sales as a result. Star Hero makes less sense, since there' s less supplemental material to buy.

 

The present Hero system is, to me, the Cadillac of RPG's - it comes with every option, and is infinitely flexibile. But some gamers would be just as happy driving their Volkswagon. Using a "Sidekick" line to market to those gamers may make good sense. SOme will stick with their Volkswagons for life, and some will upgrade to the Caddy eventually.

 

However, I think a major potential for "Fueled by Hero System" games comes not within DoJ, but from external licenses. If I've played several games (from ddifferent publishers, even) all of which are "fueld by Hero System", I suspect I'd eventually get curious enough to look into what this "Hero System" is all about. And licensing revenues - cash flow that comes in without the legwork of writing the books yourself - can be really nice to have. Of course, the up front cost of designing and negotiating the licenses isn't free either.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

One other issue. To the naysayyers who "like Hero system just the way it is", no one is proposing to REPLACE the current Hero system. I like it just the way it is, too.

 

But I also see that it may not be the best means of marketting that system to new gamers, or to gamers unfamiliar with Hero system. A "Standalone Intro Game" approach is, let's face it, what attracted most of us to the system in the first place. If that's not correct in your case, please feel free to post and tell me "My first experience with Hero was buying 5e off the shelf, with no recommendation from other gamers/friends, and learning to play from that." So far, I have not seen a single post of that nature. But I've seen a lot of staunch Hero gamers say "Yeah, I first bought Champions/Espionage/Justice Inc./whatever standalone game published by Hero". Do you really think the gamers of today are so much more sophisticated than you and I were when we make our first "Let's see if this is any good" purchase? I don't.

 

"Sidekick Champions" is not a product I want to buy. I like the Hero system the way it is, and I don't need an intro system. But I've already bought in to the Hero system. If Hero can keep going with just me, and others like me, great. But I don't think Hero can thrive, and maybe can't even survive long-term, without new blood. If "Champions Sidekick" and similar products can grow the system, then Hero will publish more books. Even if Chamions Sidekick becomes another path to Hero - and not one person buying it ever buys 5er - the buyers will still likely be attracted to various Champions source books - villain books, maybe scenario books, USPD books, setting books. I like these, and I'd love to see Hero's sales go up so they could and would produce more of these. So even if this aproach doesn't produce a single gamer for my table, it would still be a win if that result is achieved.

[MitchellS]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

However' date=' I think a major potential for "Fueled by Hero System" games comes not within DoJ, but from external licenses. If I've played several games (from ddifferent publishers, even) all of which are "fueld by Hero System", I suspect I'd eventually get curious enough to look into what this "Hero System" is all about. And licensing revenues - cash flow that comes in without the legwork of writing the books yourself - can be really nice to have. Of course, the up front cost of designing and negotiating the licenses isn't free either.[/quote']

I don't believe the Hero fan-base is large enough to support other company's products. I believe Steve Long said as much in a post on these boards as well. It would seem that the current core fan-base only has so many dollars to spend on Hero product per month, and when spending them on ABC Games' products they might not be spending them on DoJ products.

 

Personally I'd love to see more licensed Hero product but the impression I get from the only 4 published do far [The Kandris Seal, Omlevex, Dragon's Gate, and Fantasy Codex] is that sales have not been that great, but this could be due to the nature of the products produced. I think there are authors who could make a profit selling licensed Hero product [Aaron Allston, Steve Kenson, Scott Bennie, etc.] but most of the unknowns would need to produce something exceptional to pull in the fans to their products, IMO.

[MitchellS]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

If "Champions Sidekick" and similar products can grow the system' date=' then Hero will publish more books. Even if Chamions Sidekick becomes another path to Hero - and not one person buying it ever buys 5er - the buyers will still likely be attracted to various Champions source books - villain books, maybe scenario books, USPD books, setting books. I like these, and I'd love to see Hero's sales go up so they could and would produce more of these. So even if this aproach doesn't produce a single gamer for my table, it would still be a win if that result is achieved.[/quote']

That's the best and most important point of all. If Champions Sidekick can lead to the sales of only 200 more copies of Champions Universe, CKC, VIPER, DEMON, etc. then it is a success for the company. That's 200+ new gamers added to the fold. That's an extra $1,000+ per month added to DoJ's bottom line. That leads to a growing market. New fans mean new dollars, both from new books and from already published book. The current fan-base already has everything they want or can afford to buy, whether from DoJ or their FLGS.

[MitchellS]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

To me there's nothing sadder than to see a gamer come to these message boards and ask the fans what would be a good introductory superhero game they can try to entice their players to begin playing Champions, and then seeing the fans reply M&M or some other liter game system. It's because of questions and replies like this that a Champions Sidekick is needed, IMO.

[atlascott]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

"I don't believe the Hero fan-base is large enough to support other company's products. I believe Steve Long said as much in a post on these boards as well. It would seem that the current core fan-base only has so many dollars to spend on Hero product per month, and when spending them on ABC Games' products they might not be spending them on DoJ products."

 

It isnt the rules that sell the game to a new audience, its the WOW factor of the setting. If HERO gets great settings, then more HERO products, licensed or otherwise, are going to sell.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

I don't believe the Hero fan-base is large enough to support other company's products. I believe Steve Long said as much in a post on these boards as well. It would seem that the current core fan-base only has so many dollars to spend on Hero product per month' date=' and when spending them on ABC Games' products they might not be spending them on DoJ products. [\QUOTE']

 

I don't think this works if the licensee is relying on the Hero Logo selling his product. I think it works if the licensee believes the Hero rules can best convey HIS game, thus saving him tyhe difficulty of writing a set of game mechanics more or less from scratch.

 

This assumes, of course, that he doesn't see the d20 rules as able to get the job done - in that case, he'll clearly use the free mechanics, and that's a good business decision.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

As has been made clear - I'm another person who thinks that there is a niche to be filled with books that present flavour first with HERO at its core though not necessarily in an obvious manner.

 

One of my hopes was that DoJ could do something along the lines of 20-30 glossy pages that could be picked up for $10 or less. They'd be small limited games obviously but would promise more - if they picked up the full rulebook...

 

My desire is to see lots of small purchases that I'd be tempted to buy.

 

Just because you can make your own game from the toolkit doesn't mean you have the time, dedication or inspiration to do so. Sometimes you want to just open the wrapper and dive in....

 

 

...specially if it costs $10.

 

Doc

[atlascott]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

"Just because you can make your own game from the toolkit doesn't mean you have the time, dedication or inspiration to do so. Sometimes you want to just open the wrapper and dive in....

 

...specially if it costs $10."

 

Bingo! Let it be a toolkit for tinkerers like us, but a 'ready to roll' game for everyone else.

[atlascott]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

And how do I know that HERO is not overly complex or difficult to understand? From personal experience. When I ran Champions for a large group, I had newbs to gaming in general tell me what they wanted the character to do. I put the character together with them, explaining options, and letting them decide on different design options. For those who didnt have any idea, I pulled out the old 'random hero generator' found, i think, in 3rd edition (it wasnt still in 4th ed, was it?), and we built some pretty decent PC's that way, too. Building characters this way was no harder than making D&D PC's witht hese guys, bc none of them know D&D rules, and there are a ton of complexities to making PC's in that rules system, too (and in d20 in general).

 

Once we started playing, it was basically a breeze. The guys act when their speed and Dex comes up, they have their powers listed plainly on the sheets. They roll to hit, and then for damage/effect. I dont think combat took any longer than in a d20 game. No one got confused about anything.

 

Contrast that with D&D 3rd/and 3.5. My group contains long-time players of AD&D 1st, 2nd Editions. We all had to learn 3rd Ed together. Between the combat rules, feats, changed in spell, everything ran extremely slowly. Then, we upgraded to 3.5, and a bunch of minutiae chaged, slowing us even further. We have even played Star Wars d20. I think the rules are terrible and they don't really fit the genre at all.

[AnotherSkip]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

Ill second the gripe about changing gears from a longtime 2nd ed player to 3rd. Many many detail problems with 3rd, with obnoxious and unecessary rules and changes.

 

As an example the "two rings" explanation/limitation is ludicrous and totally unecessary. Yes I know it is from 1st ed (or even before) but comeon it doesn't really stop the characters from looking like christmas trees every time someone casts Detect magic.

[buzz]

Re: My two cents

 

Some of the most popular games out right now are games which don't have the appearance of complexity. Hero waves the complexity in people's faces while most other games slide it in the back door when no one is looking.

See, I'm not sure about this. Monte Cook recently wrote a column about some of the design goals for 3e, and one of them is what the 3e team called "rules mastery". I.e., the game was specifically designed to reward people who were able to figure out optimal combinations that produced "winning" results. Ergo, a level of complexity was a goal. And they seem to have been rewarded in this thinking.

 

I think that a lot of the most popular games out right now --RPGs, CMGs, and CCGs alike-- do wave their complexity to a certain extent. Doing so, I think, attracts just the sort of people who enjoy these sorts of games.

 

For example, I once read something about the appeal of games like Pokemon, specifically their appeal to boys. Boys apparently love to immerse themselves in convoluted arcana, as it were. The vast number of Pokemon characters with different names and powers, and the way the various Pokemon cards wokred with each other, was a huge draw to boys. It's jsut like collecting tons of baseball cards, having all of the player's stats memorized, and then playing games of trying to one-up each other. Or, heck, think of the arguments comic fanboys have about superhero minutiae.

 

All I'm saying is, complexity or depth is often a turn ON, not a turn OFF. It certianly seems to have captured the majority of the RPG market.

 

I would put for the idea that 75% of the people who play Hero started with the Champions basic set of 1st through 3rd edition.

I'm not sure if I agree with this. The BBB (and HSRB) was the edition that was around for the longest.

 

Right now people don't really grasp what the potential of the system is; or in order to grasp it they need to spend a great deal of money to buy several books.

But they're perfectly willing to do this with with other systems. Why not HERO?

 

I mean, think about GURPS. SJG has never really done anything like what we're discussing. Sure, there have been a few "powered by GURPS" RPGs, but I don't get the impression that they were designed to be introductory systems. They're also a pretty recent creation. GURPS doesn't seem to have been hurt by this.

 

Most of these gamers are younger and they don't want text books to read [they get enough of that in school]. They want products which stimulate their imagination first and their mind second. If you can capture their imaginations you can get many of them to expand their minds.

I guess this is just where we have to agree to disagree. The only places where I see real aversion to the average page count of RPGs (and, honestly, most RPGs are HUGE) are the Forge, and Forge-like peeps hangin' at RPG.net.

 

What many of us are talking about is just trying to find a way to A: Let new gamers understand what Hero can be used for. B: Give new gamers the same degree of "flash' in presentation that they are getting from virtually every other 1st or 2nd tier game company. C: Make it easier for potential new gamers to get involved with the game system in the same manner which we did - by playing with a game' date=' not trying to design from a toolkit.[/quote']

I can agree with most of this, I guess I just differ on the implementation.

[zornwil]

Re: My two cents

 

Here's the statement that struck me:

 

 

I think this is a specious argument. Most RPGs are comprised of big, fat books. Some of the biggest offenders are some of the biggest product lines: D&D, GURPS, Palladium/RIFTS, WoD (2+ books to play in the nWoD), Exalted, Call of Cthulhu... this hasn't stopped any of them from being successful.

 

The gaming lifers, the ones who stick with the hobby and spend money on it, don't say things like, "This is a freaking textbook; I have read this to play a game?" They say, "Why aren't they supporting this RPG more? They've only printed 600 pages of material this year!" This goes for both the newbies and the grognards.

 

When I was a kid and I was told I needed to buy a stack of books to play D&D, I said: "Mom, when can you buy these books for me? Can we go to the hobby store now?"

There's nothing in conflict with having a big rulebook and having an "all in one" game product. In fact, I would argue these could be strongly complementary.

 

Case in point - MnM and some other d20 products have motivated me to eventually buy the d20 core book. It would just NEVER have happened without having read a couple d20 products. I can't say that strongly enough - NEVER!

 

I suspect there are many possible products that could do the same for HERO.

 

In any case, I think it's an equally broad stroke to believe that the rulebook doesn't intimidate some people away and that some of that audience include people who WOULD enjoy and embrace it if they realized how little of it is actually core/necessary to play.

[zornwil]

Re: My two cents

 

I'd really be interested to know if there's an actual demand in the market for an all-in-one HERO product' date=' or fi this is just a lot of old-timers spitballing while drunk with nostalgia. Has anyone from DOJ wiehged in on this issue yet?[/quote']

I don't think anyone knows (including DOJers). It is clear also that there is virtually no ongoing market research that can really help us here, either.

[buzz]

Re: My two cents

 

Case in point - MnM and some other d20 products have motivated me to eventually buy the d20 core book. It would just NEVER have happened without having read a couple d20 products. I can't say that strongly enough - NEVER!

This isn't really a valid comparison, though. There is no d20 "core book". I mean, there are a bunch of them, and they are all self-contained games: D&D, SWd20, d20M, WoT, CoCd20, AU/AE, M&M, SASd20, BESMd20, OGL Horror, the list goes on. It's like saying, "I liked Stormbringer so much that I decided to buy Call of Cthulhu."

 

A better comparison would be if you could point to people who bought the Hellboy or Discworld RPGs and then decided to move up to full-on GURPS.

 

In any case' date=' I think it's an equally broad stroke to believe that the rulebook doesn't intimidate some people away and that some of that audience include people who WOULD enjoy and embrace it if they realized how little of it is actually core/necessary to play.[/quote']

IMO, Sidekick fills this role. The demo kit I proposed, or possibly a HERO "adventure path" might also serve a similar purpose.

 

I guess I'd like some actual data that shows the size and complexity of HERO is really driving people away. I mean, I hear HERO detractors saying this all the time, but outside of Web fora, I've never really seen it.

[zornwil]

Re: My two cents

 

This isn't really a valid comparison' date=' though. There is no d20 "core book". I mean, there are a bunch of them, and they are all self-contained games: D&D, SWd20, d20M, WoT, CoCd20, AU/AE, M&M, SASd20, BESMd20, OGL Horror, the list goes on. It's like saying, "I liked [i']Stormbringer[/i] so much that I decided to buy Call of Cthulhu."

 

With all due respect, I say poppycock! My SAS d20 book says "Requires the use of the Dungeons & Dragons, Third Edition Core Books, published by Wizards of the Coast," Despite what it says, one can play SAS d20 without buying the core books, BUT I will note that in fact a swath of details are left out and I as even a casual player am forced to wonder what is missing. Now, entirely to your point and to be fair, MnM makes no such claim specifically, but it references the OGL and discusses d20 enough, including how to add Hit Points back in, that it incites interest.

 

A better comparison would be if you could point to people who bought the Hellboy or Discworld RPGs and then decided to move up to full-on GURPS.

 

 

IMO, Sidekick fills this role. The demo kit I proposed, or possibly a HERO "adventure path" might also serve a similar purpose.

 

I guess I'd like some actual data that shows the size and complexity of HERO is really driving people away. I mean, I hear HERO detractors saying this all the time, but outside of Web fora, I've never really seen it.

You're not going to see actual data, it just doesn't exist.

 

I don't think the issue is people being driven away, the issue is very much ATTRACTING people. Champions attracted people, including many of us. And of course we're speculating here, most if not all of us are people who love universal/generic systems or at least have learned to love them due to HERO.

 

See, I don't see any fundamental difference between what you're proposing versus an "all in one" game. A demo kit or "adventure path" is essentially, from a marketing angle, the same thing, it's "how do we bring in those who would be interseted but aren't getting the message with what we're doing now?"

[zornwil]

Re: My two cents

 

Additional note - the OGL is one of d20/WOTC's greatest innovations, and it's almost entirely just so on a marketing level. It practically BEGS for other developers and intrigues/interests even me, just as something cool and not as anything I'd probably take advantage of. It's too bad we in HERO world didn't think of something as gimmicky because I think it's wonderful. Now it's a bit of a conundrum whether to follow or whether we can come up with a greater innovation.

 

On that topic, one thing a few friends from the boards and I considered some time back was writing a module to make freely available to HEROites. Sadly, we just didn't really do the work and drifted apart on it. But it is still a good idea. It would be very interesting if we could create a whole set of "Free by HERO Fans" digital publications. Steve Long has in other places expressed that he's fine with such things at least in a general manner (don't want to over-commit his comments).

[atlascott]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

Even though we have no market research, we can observe the inudstry ourselves and draw some conclusions. WE know ourselves, and that extent, we know others.

 

If crunchiness is all it takes to get an industry-leading game system, then HERO should be the industry leader, based on its entity-creation rules. FGU's Space Opera would still be widely played and followed. Chivalry & Scorcery would have beat out D&D. But but they haven't. SOMETHING must account for this.

 

Instead, HERO has been criticized as being too complicated or too much work by the LEGIONS AND LEGIONS of RPG'er who play games like Vampire, etc.--the role player, not the rules lawyers or wargamers in RPG'ers shoes.

 

In addition to being HERO fanboys, we are all also RPG consumers--and not just of HERO's products. Look back at your last 10 game purchases. What got you to drop coin on the table?

 

I bought Star Wars d20, because it is a beautiful product, and I looked forward to sharing some of the magic of the movies in the Star Wars universe, and in my own way, add to the Jedi legend.

 

I bought All Flesh Must be Eaten because I am a Zombie Movie nut. I saw it in the books store and I read 2 of the Narrative Chapter introductions, and I was hooked. I wanted to be in that world, fight that fight.

 

I bought Armageddon (also from Eden Studios) because the premise was intriguiging, the narrative was engaging, and the art was thematically and stylistically consistent to build a game world real enought to entice me--I wanted to fight that even bigger fight, and delve into that world's mysteries. Both it and All Flesh have nothing but black and white art, and each book, as I recall, is around 300 pages--rules, content, everything you need to run a complete campaign.

 

I bought 3.5 D&D books bc the group wanted to try 3.5 to see if they fixed what was wrong in 3.0 (didn't, and made alot of things different for no reason other than evidently wanting everyone to spend more $).

 

I bought a pdf supplement from RPGNOW call "Three Arrows for the King" because a PC in the game wanted to make his Bard the consummate Archer. It was well written and a useful game supplement.

 

I have purchased several D&D modules from non-WOTC, because they presented their product with exciting prose and the promise of high adventure and terrible challenged to overcome.

 

I have purchased 5th Ed Hero, Fantasy, Star Hero, Terran Empire, Grimoire I, Alien Wars, Vehicle Sourcebook, Spacer's Toolkit, Herocreator, data packs for Hero creator, 3 copies of Sidekick, and a few others--mainly because I love the HERO system, and I want to support the fine gents who have rescued it from oblivion. But none of the products grabbed me the way the two small books from Eden Studios did--or the way the 3rd Edition did. As I posted before, voluminous, but souless.

 

Review your own purchases over the last year. Did you make the purchases by looking at the product and exlaiming "Wow, 600 pages!" or "Holy smokes, look at all these rules!" or "Wow, powered by d20"!

 

Or did you make the lion's share of purchases because the little boy or girl in you who used to play pirates, army, cowboys and indians, the same part of you that made you go see LOTR in the theaters, AVP (even tho its was terrible), FORCED you to take our your wallet and dream the beautiful dreams of excitement, adventure, and an extraordinary life?

 

Great passion makes for great action--and big purchases. Those who feel that sort of passion for large books for rules are few and far between, and will not sustain HERO forever. We have here the greatest game system ever devised, and we are letting silly things stand in our way.

 

If you dont understand that PASSION motivates people to buy ANYTHING, then turn on the television. How many car commercials show fast driving, or the approval of men and women for the owner of brand X car? Why are action movies so popular? Why is Sex such an effective sales tool, if details, facts and figures were the true motivator behind purchases of any good or service?

 

These rules are sexy, for us tinkerers. HERO's attempts at "how to play in a genre" books have left me cold, but evidently, some people enjoy them. (I dont need to be told that "The term "science fiction" is broad, encompassing many types of stories, characters, and settings" or that "Space travel is a central concept in science fiction.") The actual campaign books that I have seen are not going to do it, because they pre-suppose you are familiar with the HERO system. NO ONE IS GOING TO BUY HERO AFTER READING ONE OF THE GENRE BOOKS--THEY DO NOT HAVE THAT KIND OF 'WOW FACTOR'. USERS OF HERO MIGHT BUY THE GENRE BOOKS. But his is not the way to grow the user base. We are putting the cart before the horse.

 

Sell the genre books, use beautiful, consistent art, and compelling narrative, and build such a fascinating, compelling game world that anyone who picks it up is DYING to play it. THEN you'll sell more books. THEN the kid who was blown away by your Space Opera game will turn to you for Fantasy or Modern when his group goes that way--and all with learning a minimal number of new rules.

 

Or, we can stick with the idea that the crunchiest, best game system will eventually win out. But be warned, Marketing is a real discipline, and after production, is the MOST important part of any business.

[nexus]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

Edit:Oh forget it. This thread has been "won" already.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

Sell the genre books, use beautiful, consistent art, and compelling narrative, and build such a fascinating, compelling game world that anyone who picks it up is DYING to play it. THEN you'll sell more books. THEN the kid who was blown away by your Space Opera game will turn to you for Fantasy or Modern when his group goes that way--and all with learning a minimal number of new rules.

 

Hear hear!!!!!

Excellent post, with a ton of neat observations.

But this last point really does clinch it for me, as well...

Repped

[Doc Democracy]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

In addition to being HERO fanboys' date=' we are all also RPG consumers--and not just of HERO's products. Look back at your last 10 game purchases. What got you to drop coin on the table?[/quote']

 

I thought this might make for a good thread. I put it in here in General Roleplaying.

 

Doc