HERO system observations and beefs

[atlascott]

This is meant as constructive criticism of a game system I really enjoy and have followed over the years.

 

The 5th Edition rulebooks has sort of a soulless feeling to it, and alot of the art is sub-par, or recycled art of different styles which do not mesh well together. It also has an embarassingly-high amount of errata, and no, I dont plan on re-purchasing the same thing for another $45 bucks. For those who dispute the above, just compare the comprehensive 4th Edition rulebook to the 5th Edition.

 

Fantasy Hero is indeterminate and fluffy--it could accompish its goal with 1/3 fewer pages and provide more details, examples, and concretes, like statted out equipment, characters, etc.

 

Star Hero, Alien Wars and the Terran Empire. Star Hero is very fluffy with very little useful content as a percentage of pages in the book. All three books are self-referential, and in retrospect, it was unnecessary, other than for trying to get you to buy all three (which I did, as a fan of the genre). These are very fluffy as well, and the art is inconsistent in style as well, making for a bit of a disjointed experience in reading the book. As campaign books, they really do not impress or envelope the reader in the particular campaign world they purport to build. The settings feel extremely generic, the histories implausible and a bit boring (Alien Wars is better in this regard). I wouldnt want to run a campaign in either of these game worlds without so much tweaking as to make them completely unrecognizable. One start in AW would be to actually make the Xenovore individually more impressive. An average 13 strength for the species? Why were we afraid of them again?

 

I know, this is a pretty negative review for someone who is a fan. Just keep in mind, HERO games has my money, and I haven't asked for a refund. Im just hesitant to buy any additional source material--I'll generate my own--and stick with buying rules. Does anyone else share these criticisms? Or am I having a bad day?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

Well, you are of course entitled to your opinion, and constructive feedback is always welcome.

 

I hear complaints about the art in HERO books fairly often. Personally I'm much more interested in printed content in my gamebooks than pretty pictures, but Hero Games appears to be acquiring a reputation for "good content, bad art" that concerns me sales-wise. Quite a few gamers seem to be swayed by the quality of the artwork.

 

Errata in most Hero books is no more extensive than most D&D books from what I've been able to determine, but the greatest number appear in the earliest volumes, before Hero Games had lined up a stalwart corps of playtesters. Since then the frequency of errata has dropped dramatically.

 

The reception for Terran Empire and Alien Wars has been mixed. Some love them, some hate them, some are largely indifferent. I have to say, though, that your perception of Fantasy HERO and Star HERO is very much in the minority. These two genre books are among the most praised and popular that the new Hero Games has produced, even among gamers who don't play HERO. (I'm reinforcing this opinion with all the remarks I've seen on the discussion boards for RPGnet.) A big reason for this is what you seem to refer to as "fluff": the advice and guidelines on world building, genre conventions, and all the issues you need to account for and decisions you need to make to create your game world the way you want it. That is the focus of each of HG's genre books, and it's quite deliberate.

 

As far as the "crunch" of actual HERO System builds goes, Hero has published a lot of supplements and sourcebooks for people who want that - settings, characters, creatures, vehicles, weapons, spells, superpowers, and so on. The HERO buying public seems to be divided between people who want things already made for them, and people who prefer the tools to build their own. Hero Games is trying to provide enough to satisfy both camps, and while that will likely never be completely achievable they've been doing a pretty good job overall IMHO.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

It's your opinion on the books. Personally I don't agree.

 

I thought the 5th edition was a bit corporate but given that the system was being resuscitated from a mortal gap in revenue generation I think that I was delighted to see a book at all even if it didn't feature art by George Perez.

 

I've spoken to Steve Long and he said that he learned a lot through writing the Fifth Edition and learned more writing Sidekick. Those statements could be taken as an acknowledgement that the rulebook was less than perfect but it also shows that he thinks the books are getting better as they go on.

 

I'm not sure where you get fluffy from, the books are as hardcore as you can get - there's crunchy bits EVERYWHERE. I reckon you mean unfocussed but that is IMO the strength and weakness of HERO.

 

It's hard to be focussed in a toolkit. 4th Edition was still Champions where the rules might be used elsewhere and so the focus of the book was superheroes. In fifth edition there is no pre-supposition that the book will be used to play superheroes (and maybe some other stuff) that makes the rules hard to focus. They are supposed to be open ended.

 

Personally I thought Star Hero was the best generic space RPG rulebook I've ever read - it provides so much aid to someone wanting to set up a sci-fi game. Like any other long time HERO player the other stuff is nothing that I couldn't do myself given time. Alien Wars and Terran Empire should be sefl referential - they're campaign books - they need to connect.

 

Why were we afraid of the Xenovores - well STR 13 compares to an average human STR 8 - or in HERO terms the aliens are twice as strong as humans. That's impressive - it's just that the system doesn't make that immediately explicit.

 

Fantasy Hero is a huge tome that tries to provide guidance on how you can use the toolkit to construct a huge variety of Fantasy campaigns - it wasn't the place for concrete examples - it was very much an ideas book that provided broad paths that could be developed.

 

I guess that means I pretty much disagree with you - which doesn't mean either of us is right or wrong. I'm pleased that the books are there. I'll buy more when they are published. IMO you have approached a few of these books looking for things they were never designed to provide - no wonder you were disappointed.

 

I'm pleased you posted though - even if you don't buy any more books this is the place to be for anyone that wants to game using the HERO system.

 

 

Doc

[tancred]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

I'll have to respectfully disagree with you on the errata. I scanned my ENTIRE 4th Edition BBB specifically so I could correct all the typos and print myself a fixed version. Fifth Edition is considerably less broken and has much better examples than 4th Edition. 5ER also has MUCH more clearly written rules; I'm finally understanding things I've played wrong since 1st Edition.

 

I found both Star Hero and Fantasy Hero to be extremely useful, although neither is a pre-defined setting.

 

The Turakian Age book looks like a good setting for Fantasy; I'm planning on using it when I run fantasy again.

 

As for Terran Empire and Alien Wars, I really like the universe defined in them.

 

My biggest complaint about both books is the total disconnect in technology between them. Somebody didn't do any continuity work to make the technology consistent between the two eras. (Example: The first laser pistol listed for Terran Empire has an Activation Roll and does less damage than the laser weapons used 50 years earlier near the end of the Alien War period.)

 

Once Worlds of Empire comes out, I will probably try to run at least a short game set in the Terran Empire.

[atlascott]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

Hey, don't get me wrong--I'm the same guy who wants to convert ALL of my RPG's to HERO system! And as I said, I am not looking for, nor do I deserve, a refund. There is admittedly PLENTY of good content in ALL of the books I have purchased, Steve Long did a helluvva job with 5th Ed.--my main gripe has to do with the graphic presentation. That sure aint content, and coming from a person with no flair for the visual (me), eh, maybe you take it with a grain of sand.

 

Maybe StarHERO wasnt my cup of tea because, being a monster fan of sci-fi, I never have a shortage of ideas, and being a vet GM, I know how to put a world together.

 

And your points about 4th Ed Fantasy HERO magic system, and the book's role, is well taken (tool-kit, campaign world, source material all in one).

 

And, maybe I overstated the criticisms. All of the HERO books I own I am keeping, not selling, and will use, and reuse. HERO is still my favorite system and probably always will be.

 

And dont kid yourself, my greens will be electronically transferred to the Store the next time a book is released tickles my fancy. Im just very grateful that HERO was revived from its cold slumber...

[MitchellS]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

(Example: The first laser pistol listed for Terran Empire has an Activation Roll and does less damage than the laser weapons used 50 years earlier near the end of the Alien War period.)

Actually there is no disparity between Alien Wars and Terran Empire. The mistake is in Spacer's Toolkit, but since AW was written last it should have either agreed with the Spacer's Toolkit information or made a statement as to why it didn't.

[RDU Neil]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

Atlascott,

Your complaints aren't new... and I for one agree with many of them. There have been numerous threads about how some like the direction of DOJ's take on Hero... and others don't really cotton to it.

 

Personally, I don't need a Star Hero or Fantasy Hero or Champions book that is a great deal of text about all the different ways I have to do ALL THE WORK MYSELF to create a fantasy game.

 

I want a fantasy game complete and fleshed out that evokes a passion to play in that world, or something like it. I want a game... not a bunch of book on how to make a game out of a system.

 

Now I'm old school Hero... so I've DONE all the "create my own world" stuff over the past 24 years. I will always do this to some extent, but the fact is, I get more and better ideas about "what I might do" from actual, complete games... than from generic tomes of conceptual discussion.

 

As for the actual game worlds created for Fantasy and Star Hero... well... I feel they are very plain and generic and don't instill any kind of "WOW factor!"

 

To me... from a perception and sales perspective... you have to make the potential buyer say "WHOA! That's cool!" before you get them to ask "How did they build that? How does the system support such a cool game?"

 

Begin Metaphor:

Bascially, you have to show the sports car zooming down the road in full color before you get people looking at piles of sheet metal, engine parts and machine tools and thinking "Hey, I could build one of those myself!"

 

Hero has no sports car... they just have a really REALLY nice, fully equipped machine shop.

 

Even for those intrigued by a machine shop, you still have to realize that is a very small minority of an already small niche market. Not only that, but even those who do purchase the machine shop are going to find that much of what they try to make is flawed, incomplete and unworkable... and they are going to leave the machine shop to gather dust, and just buy a really nice sports car... maybe tweaking it occasionally with a tool from the machine shop... but likely as not just going for a drive.

 

The few cars that Hero has produced (Champions Universe, Terran Empire, Turakian Age) are rather clunky and plain and don't do a lot to inspire.

End Metaphor

 

Hero under DOJ has really refined everything to make a great SYSTEM... but they have yet to produce a great GAME. Until they do that, I'm afraid it will languish as a sub0-niche in an ever smaller niche market.

[atlascott]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

Ok, Neil, I guess I'm not crazy, then. This might sound stupid, but 4th Ed felt bouncy and fun! 5th Edition is awesome, but I agree it is missing the WOW factor, or the 'must have it' factor.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

To me... from a perception and sales perspective... you have to make the potential buyer say "WHOA! That's cool!" before you get them to ask "How did they build that? How does the system support such a cool game?"

 

[snip]

 

Hero has no sports car... they just have a really REALLY nice, fully equipped machine shop.

 

 

Apparently I'm not very good at spreading rep - just tried you (and Zornwil on another thread) and will have to give others before I get back to you....

[Lord Liaden]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

You know, Neil, I don't completely disagree with your opinion on some of the efforts that DoJ has made re settings, but I do have to say that there are dissenting opinions out there. Just for example, I've been spending a fair amount of time on RPGnet over the past year - which of course has never been extremely "hero-friendly" - and I remember one of the veteran (and perhaps most thoughtful and balanced) reviewers there, Brand Robbins, waxing quite enthusiastic about Champions Universe. (The "Reviews" page of this website's "Our Products" section can take you to it, if you're curious.) Just recently I saw a remark on the RPGnet discussion boards by game professional S. John Ross (of Columbia Games and RISUS fame) calling Turakian Age one of his favorite game publications of the past year.

 

It's certainly fair to say that these settings haven't inspired you or a number of other people, but barring comparitive industry sales figures I think it's premature to call them generally uninspiring.

 

For that matter, what would be required to create a surefire, broadbased inspirational setting? If there was a formula I'm sure everyone in the industry would at least rent their souls to get it.

[obatron]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

... Just recently I saw a remark on the RPGnet discussion boards by game professional S. John Ross (of Columbia Games and RISUS fame) calling Turakian Age one of his favorite game publications of the past year.

 

I think you meant Cumberland Games ? Unless of course you didn't, in which case, I had no idea about him being part of Columbia Games and apologize.

 

[Constantine]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

I have to say that I wasn't very impressed with 5th edition revised. I bought it because we started a new champions game after a long time, and I didn't even have 5th edition, so I figured 5th edition revised might be the ticket. I have found the book difficult to use. There is a lot of information, too much in some cases, that you have to wade through to find the one thing that you are looking for. And yet, some little important bits of information aren't to be found with the powers/advantages/limitations themselves, but squirreled away in another corner of the book. The art comment made at the beginning of this thread seem right on to me. No, the art doesn't have to be great, but it does need to be better. Every single non-gaming friend and acquaintance has seen me walking around with game books, they have come to recognize some of them. Yet, when I'm walking around with 5e revised, they ask me why I'm walking around with a text book. It READS like a text book, and I don't think you are going to attract many new gamers to the system with that. Probably why they put out Sidekick, but that I think that makes my point. I would imagine that most stores are going to carry the basic book, then a "supplement" like sidekick...

[Lord Liaden]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

I think you meant Cumberland Games ? Unless of course you didn't, in which case, I had no idea about him being part of Columbia Games and apologize.

 

 

No, you're quite right, obatron. Thank you for hiking up my Freudian slip.

[GreyGuardian]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

believe what you want to, but I find that 5th edition revised was worth buying for the improved layout and clarity and expanded examples. There are rules I thought I understood, but it took 5 or 6 readings in 5th, in 5th revised the text elaborates enough or provides examples that make the meaning quite clear and confirmed or corrected my interpretations from the previous editions.

 

Genra books. I generally had an expectation that I would be familiar enough with world building that the genra books were not going to be terribly useful for me. I was wrong. They aren't cover to cover essentials but they do save a lot of time where they cover something it would have taken me time to research. The how to construct x ability in terms of hero has been surprisingly enlightening.

 

Setting books - I generally like terran empires. it gives a core political / historical perspective a decent amount of tech gadgets etc and leaves lots of room for customization and expansion. The things it is missing include a more detailed and clear discussion of ships being atmospheric vs not atmospheric capable vs fast shuttles vs reactionless drive vs the time it takes to get from outside the gravity well to a place of interest. And it lacks a good discussion on ship floor plans, component size (though that can sometimes be extracted from the text) and general ship design philosophy.

 

I'm using champions universe, VIPER, UNTIL, and the city books to flesh out my champions game. Demon will be there too after I get a chance to read the whole book (possibly the best of the lot for the type of game I tend to run).

 

The big advantage of published settings aside from the lack of needing to write all that my self is the accessibility to my players so they can become familiar with the setting during non-game time.

 

I've been playing HERO since 1984. Pre 4th edition the supplements were uniformly mediocre to bad. Generally all of the 5th edition books have had something in them that was useful. The enemies / bestiary books have had bad guys etc that are actually worth using without major modification and have useful plot hook suggestions. The modules are generally good. Shade of black is my favorite of them so far.

 

As a comparison, the dnd 3.5 expansion books (complete this and that, frost whatever) are prettier I suppose but no where near as useful as most hero products. Generally they have to expand the rules to allow character customization... and hero - well all the rules are in the big black book - and I like that a lot.

[MitchellS]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

I've been playing HERO since 1984. Pre 4th edition the supplements were uniformly mediocre to bad.

I have to disagree. Some of the 3E material was the best ever written for the game, and something both 4E and 5E has spent a great deal of time emulating. Champions, Danger International, and Justice, Inc are probably among the 3 best books ever written, not to mention Lands of Mystery, Super Agents, Ninja Hero, Mythic Greece, and several other books. Now if you're just talking about Champions then I can agree that most of the Champions supplements weren't great but they all set the foundation for everything that is the Hero Universe today.

[Blue]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

When you buy a game company, as DoJ did with Hero, you have to get a product out on the shelves so you can see some immediate return on your investment. To that end, the art in 5E is recycled from previous sources. I don't believe there's ANY new art in 5e.

 

When 5ER was put together they used all the art from only the new 5th edition books. So some of the art you dislike from Starhero, etc. will appear in the 5er.

 

I don't think the errata is any worse than Wizards; I still find things that are not sufficiently explained in their books. What Steve does is answer every little question people ask. There are clarifications of clarifications, of clarifications.

 

You've got the "the write a sentance to explain it and let them figure it out further" school and you've got the "alright let's nail this down to the last detail" school. Steve obviously falls into the latter. I'm not a huge fan of that much detail, but it HAS come in handy for me.

[MitchellS]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

Apparently I'm not very good at spreading rep - just tried you (and Zornwil on another thread) and will have to give others before I get back to you....

I'd rep him as well but I am also behind.

 

My only real complaint about 5E campaign books is that they all feel incomplete to me. Terran Empire, Champions Universe, Alien Wars, and The Valdorian Age are the most notable examples of this [i haven't read Hudson City or Ninja Hero]. Each of these books seems to give just enough information for to inspire an idea or two but never seems to close the circle of knowledge on any one thing. For such a detail-driven crunchy game system the source material also seems too sketchy to me.

 

I'd rather purchase Dawnforge, Midnight, and Conan for fantasy, Babylon 5, Star Trek, or Star Wars for science fiction, Freedom City, Foes of Freedom, and The Algernon Files for supers, and convert them to Hero than use the currently available Hero material because to me the above-mentioned books have more flavor and flow than any campaign currently published by DoJ. As I primarily only play Champions now I'm even more dissatisfied by the lack of creativity and originality in the CU material. DEMON has been the only surprise and bright point, IMO.

[atlascott]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

Dont get me started on WOTC books. Every time I run a game in our ongoing D&D campaign, I swear that I will never run another. The rules are all over the place, and are vague.

 

5th ED rules DEFINITELY explain stuff alot better than previous incarnations of HERO.

[nexus]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

I guess I am in the minority. I love the toolkit nature of Hero and if anything, I'd like to see that expanded on. I don't really need setting. I can come up with setting and most published setting bore me to tears anyway. I love books like Star and Fantasy Hero though. Instead of precanned setting I get the tools to create as many different games as I feel the need too.

 

That being said. I did enjoy Terran Empire and Turkanian Age. And another Hero setting might be nice to look at it, but I wouldn't want it to eslipse the genre books.

[rjcurrie]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

I guess I am in the minority. I love the toolkit nature of Hero and if anything, I'd like to see that expanded on. I don't really need setting. I can come up with setting and most published setting bore me to tears anyway. I love books like Star and Fantasy Hero though. Instead of precanned setting I get the tools to create as many different games as I feel the need too.

 

That being said. I did enjoy Terran Empire and Turkanian Age. And another Hero setting might be nice to look at it, but I wouldn't want it to eslipse the genre books.

 

I'm another one in that minority with you, Nexus. I love the discussion of genres and things to consider much more than I like specific write-ups. I create my own worlds, so in general, books full of such write-ups (such as CKC) are pretty much only good as a possible source of ideas -- much like any book of write-ups for any system. I will say, however, that USPD is an exception to this. It covers so many powers and provides so many ideas on how to express concepts in Hero terms that I do find it very useful.

 

And as for 5e reading and looking like a textbook, I think that's a good thing. I think the plain black cover with the Hero logo stands out far more than most other gaming books which just tend to blend together on the shelves. And I've always felt that the writing in a game's rulebook should be much closer to technical writing than to fiction writing. I don't want a pile of fluffy flavor text, but instead clear, detailed descriptions of the rules. It's a reference book not something that's necessarily meant to be read cover-to-cover in one sitting.

[Storn]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

When you buy a game company, as DoJ did with Hero, you have to get a product out on the shelves so you can see some immediate return on your investment. To that end, the art in 5E is recycled from previous sources. I don't believe there's ANY new art in 5e.

 

When 5ER was put together they used all the art from only the new 5th edition books. So some of the art you dislike from Starhero, etc. will appear in the 5er.

 

Oh, yes, there was new art in 5thEd. Because I did much of it. About 10 pieces, I believe. And I think there were a few new pieces by Greg Smith as well. However, it does fall in the minority.

 

I'm sorry that many folks don't like the artwork. I bust my hump trying to do artwork that I think is interesting to y'all and this is as important, fun for me to do. I know that color sells... but it just ain't happening in a small print run like we've been having for Hero products. So I try to do the next best thing, by having texture and shading and doing grayscale (in color, hoping down the line there will come for the call to do the color) and not just black line drawings... which at this point in my career, bore the pants off of me doing.

 

And bottom line? This might sound egotistical, but I don't care.... I'll put my artwork against anyone in the business and feel fine doing it. Certainly there are folks better than me, but not many and not by much.... except for the great oil painters like Brom, Parkinson and Whelan. My painting isn't up to their level.... but I'm a'tryin'.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

I was well aware of the new art that you contributed to 5E, Mr. Cook, and I was very glad to see it, as well as that by Albert Deschenes, Andrew Cremeans and others. IMO if there was more art by you in more recent Hero Games books, there'd be far fewer complaints.

 

Thing is, I've tended to see a smaller percentage of illustrations over the past couple of years by those of you in that first wave of books produced by DoJ, and some of the newer individuals don't seem to be of the same caliber. Maybe Hero has just been putting out too many books for you to fit into your schedule. That might also explain what does seem to be quite a bit of recycled art.

 

Those are all uninformed observations, of course.

[MitchellS]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

Oh, yes, there was new art in 5thEd. Because I did much of it. About 10 pieces, I believe. And I think there were a few new pieces by Greg Smith as well. However, it does fall in the minority.

 

I'm sorry that many folks don't like the artwork. I bust my hump trying to do artwork that I think is interesting to y'all and this is as important, fun for me to do. I know that color sells... but it just ain't happening in a small print run like we've been having for Hero products. So I try to do the next best thing, by having texture and shading and doing grayscale (in color, hoping down the line there will come for the call to do the color) and not just black line drawings... which at this point in my career, bore the pants off of me doing.

 

And bottom line? This might sound egotistical, but I don't care.... I'll put my artwork against anyone in the business and feel fine doing it. Certainly there are folks better than me, but not many and not by much.... except for the great oil painters like Brom, Parkinson and Whelan. My painting isn't up to their level.... but I'm a'tryin'.

Let me also add that I think most of your art in the 5E books has been first rate. The decline in quality seems to stem more from the lack of your presence, as well as most of the others who were working regularly for DoJ a year or so ago.

[Sweeper]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

So far, the only problems I have with 5ER is the sheer size in terms of both weight and information. I kind of liken it to Starfleet Battles, a favorite of mine, with every rule combined into one big source. Right now my SFB rules currently take up 2 3" 3-ring binders and I still haven't put all of my rules in them. (For those of you who don't know, SFB rulebooks and modules are pre-3 hole punched and are made to be broken apart and be combined into a super rulebook). The sheer size of the product boggles the mind at first glance, It did for me when I first laid eyes on it at any rate.

 

Experience this tells me this will cause most prospective players to run screaming out the door, (This really happened, sorta), and never look at the game again. Fortunately for us, Hero Games, like ADB, saw fit to introduce a rules and options lite version of the game system. Maybe, just maybe, I can get players for a Champions game using Sidekick at first.

 

The other problem I first had with the book was the price. At $50, it seemed pretty hard to swallow. But then I did the math when comparing it other systems. D&D, for example, has 3 core books at $30 a piece, GURPS wasn't much better at $40 each for 2 core books. All of a sudden, a $50 price tag wasn't that hard to swallow, concidering the cost of games books nowadays.

 

Fortunatley for me, I got back into Hero just recently, so I didn't have to worry about deciding to upgrade from 5E to 5ER.

 

Oh yeah, I'm kind of curious as to how much the book would've cost if higher quality paper was used. Probably would've added $10 to the cover price at least.

[Sketchpad]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

Personally, I like the feel of 5th ed and I don't mind the art ... I think my biggest problem is the graphic design of it. Now, don't get me wrong ... I'm not trying to bust on anyone. I just feel that it's a little too text book occasionally and would love to see some color plates in books like Champions or CkC ... not to mention a different character format ... it's just too plan sometimes.