HERO system observations and beefs

[GreyGuardian]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

I was just referring to the champions supplements. Decent ideas, but not well executed (they weren't terrible but the 5th edition versions are uniformly much better). I agree danger int and justice inc were both quite good.

 

I have to disagree. Some of the 3E material was the best ever written for the game' date=' and something both 4E and 5E has spent a great deal of time emulating. Champions, Danger International, and Justice, Inc are probably among the 3 best books ever written, not to mention Lands of Mystery, Super Agents, Ninja Hero, Mythic Greece, and several other books. Now if you're just talking about Champions then I can agree that most of the Champions supplements weren't great but they all set the foundation for everything that is the Hero Universe today.[/quote']

[MitchellS]

Re: My two cents

 

Okay...now I am really intrigued. Let the conspiracy theorist begin. Who are the two unknown benefactors of Hero?

Blondie and Dagwood Bumstead.

[Darren Watts]

Re: My two cents

 

Okay...now I am really intrigued. Let the conspiracy theorist begin. Who are the two unknown benefactors of Hero?

 

Okay, let's nip this little fracas in the bud. Neither owner posts on the board or works for Hero in any manner. They simply prefer their privacy and don't want to be solicited by other people in the industry seeking investments. dw

[Blue]

Re: My two cents

 

Ok, okay. We'll leave Monte Cook and Steve Jobs alone.

[Eosin]

Re: My two cents

 

As for the Art vs Content argument I for one will always fall on the content side. You I would rather have 50 more pages of content explaining' date=' giving new rules, etc. than to have a single nice piece o artwork. (Sorry you art guys.) If you want artwork there is plenty around the internet for you to copy, paste, and use.[/quote']

 

 

Where do you find that there can only be art or content and not the ever pleasant dream of getting both done right in a single package?

[MisterBaldy]

Re: My two cents

 

There are in fact five of us, and Steve and I are the only two involved in the company day-to-day. Jason Walters is also a partner, and writes and contributes where he can when his actual day job allows him the time. The other two prefer not to make their identities public and are not involved in the operations of the company, though both have provided us with invaluable help over the last three and a half years in their own ways.

 

The supers side of the CU has probably more stuff from me than Steve (though it's pretty close) simply because I'm more of a straightforward supers fan and comics history geek than Steve, who has to divide his time also overseeing Fantasy and Dark Champs (two genres I'm much less interested in personally, at least as a writer.) So when I do get to fit some writing into my schedule, it tends to be mostly supers stuff, and it's frequently the stuff that has more of an eye on the history of the setting.

 

Anyway, thanks for the acknowledgement. We wouldn't be here without Steve's incredible work to date, of course, but the other owners, the ridiculously dedicated staff (Andy, Ben, Tina, Allen) and our corps of freelancers have all contributed greatly to what we've accomplished so far. dw

I didn't mean to say that none of the contributions made by yourself are any less significant than Steve Long's, but his contributions were all that was out there for approximately a year or so...so I mentioned him specifically.

 

No slight was meant, or directed toward you or anyone else in any way!!!

 

Okay' date=' let's nip this little fracas in the bud. Neither owner posts on the board or works for Hero in any manner. They simply prefer their privacy and don't want to be solicited by other people in the industry seeking investments. dw[/quote']

I can understand wanting privacy, and not wanting any solicitations. I go through that issue in my current job...sometimes you just want to be left alone, for your "peace of mind's" sake.

[atlascott]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

"Okay...now I am really intrigued. Let the conspiracy theorist begin. Who are the two unknown benefactors of Hero?"

 

My votes are: (1) Hitler's Brain; and (2) Mister Rogers.

[tabascojunkie]

Re: My two cents

 

Okay...now I am really intrigued. Let the conspiracy theorist begin. Who are the two unknown benefactors of Hero?

 

Bob Dylan and Jimmy Hoffa.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

"Okay...now I am really intrigued. Let the conspiracy theorist begin. Who are the two unknown benefactors of Hero?"

 

Bill Gates and E Gary Gygax

[buzz]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

...the d20 system is not the "be all and end all" as the Universal Game Licence seems to lead one to believe.

Not sure if it got mentioned yet, but there is no such thing as a "Universal Game License." d20 also has never been adventized by WotC as a generic, universal system. Just an *open* one.

 

Ranter, educate thyself.

[buzz]

Re: My two cents

 

Where do you find that there can only be art or content and not the ever pleasant dream of getting both done right in a single package?

Heck, if Green Ronin can do it...

[zornwil]

Re: My two cents

 

First, I want to state there are many great posts in this thread, thoughtful and useful stuff. I hope Steve Long reads the thread. Heck, I'll PM him, being a bit pushy by nature when it comes to my favorite topics...

 

...anyway, sorry I couldn't touch on all. I want to specially note I didn't comment on Mr. Baldie's somewhat lengthy major entry in this thread, but I really liked his contribution, I thought it was well thought-out and helpful.

 

Second, stayed away from commenting but for some reason became more motivated on revisiting this -

 

Third, I took snippets from many different posts. I apologize in advance if anyone feels it was unfairly out of context - for the record, I encourage anyone diving in to go back and read the beginning of the thread and the original posts from which I extracted below, these are very much "stranded" comments and the authors made other and often mitigating comments in the full posts.

 

The 5th Edition rulebooks has sort of a soulless feeling to it' date=' [/quote']

 

First, atlascott, great thread starter in general! I disagree in some respects and agree in others.

 

Personally, the quoted sentence to me is the primary issue. I think there must be a way to inject some "feel" into the HERO rules products. I think it's more difficult, surely, due to being universal/generic, but I am sure that a few well-placed cartoons that tell a little character or such story throughout in 2-3 genres would be nice and help rather than just fill space if tied to actual rules issues/examples. Though that isn't the only way this could be addressed.

 

Your comment is echoed in the thread re "text book" comments. So I'll touch more on that below.

 

I reckon you mean unfocussed but that is IMO the strength and weakness of HERO.

 

It's hard to be focussed in a toolkit.

 

Great point. There's a degree to which this can't be fully resolved, except/until I think we get to the point of a "Fueled by HERO!" actual GAME product as RDU N, I think you, and others have mentioned. At this point, I think we can tie these things together.

 

I could see a "Turakian Age Game", the setting perhaps still being a different book but basically the entire Fantasy setting gets enveloped in a stand-alone game which is built entirely on HERO but mainly just ignores all of the non-Fantasy stuff and otherwise incorporates any/all optional rules that are necessary as just regular rules.

 

4th Edition was still Champions where the rules might be used elsewhere and so the focus of the book was superheroes. In fifth edition there is no pre-supposition that the book will be used to play superheroes (and maybe some other stuff) that makes the rules hard to focus. They are supposed to be open ended.

 

Hate to nit-pick too much, but 4th was really intended to be universal, the focus on Champions being really if you bought the bundled product which included both Champions and the HERO core rules. Wasn't there also a Fantasy version that did much the same? Regardless of that question, the intent was really to be generic, but you're right that didn't come through entirely, and was entirely lost on some (I think for those who bought the bundled version it wasn't evident at all, I agree). To be fair, I think 5th really just "fixed" this. But it did so at a cost, it lost the (IMHO already small) degree of flavor present in 4th. Again, will address some of this in the textbook issue below.

 

Personally I thought Star Hero was the best generic space RPG rulebook I've ever read -

 

Fantasy Hero is a huge tome that tries to provide guidance on how you can use the toolkit to construct a huge variety of Fantasy campaigns

 

I agree on both counts. For me Star Hero was great as a "generic space RPG" book, and as such it can't be more, and can't be less - it can't really hav the strength of a Cyber product or a Retief product or whatever. But I will find out more when the rubber hits the road as I'll crack this open again to really use it to help me throw together the Cyber Ninja Pirates in Space game that lemming and I have conceived.

 

I'm pleased you posted though - even if you don't buy any more books this is the place to be for anyone that wants to game using the HERO system.

 

Yup, and I think this discussion is useful, even if we tend to go round in circles a bit and repeat ourselves. Comment on how it's useful below re RDU N's vehicle analogy...

 

I want a fantasy game complete and fleshed out that evokes a passion to play in that world' date=' or something like it. I want a game... not a bunch of book on how to make a game out of a system.[/quote']

 

Oddly, as much as I advocate for such, I don't have much of a personal desire except for a few niche games I think would be fun - a Lost Worlds one perhaps and a Western game would be cool as complete "lobotomized" HERO games. But more to the point, I think this is a general need for the system, and I think it could do what HERO itself can't, bring in new gamers.

 

Now I'm old school Hero... so I've DONE all the "create my own world" stuff over the past 24 years. I will always do this to some extent' date=' but the fact is, I get more and better ideas about "what I might do" from actual, complete games... than from generic tomes of conceptual discussion.[/quote']

 

Now, personally, here I disagree, for the record. I actually find conceptual discussion pretty good for creating games and fueling ideas, and in general find that what inspires me comes from such scattered sources and against expectations so often it's hard for me to predict which RPG products will really end up being truly used.

 

As for the actual game worlds created for Fantasy and Star Hero... well... I feel they are very plain and generic and don't instill any kind of "WOW factor!"

 

This is very true. I think this is the biggest single issue in HERO's way, it is an issue infusing the entire product line, and I don't want to lay this on DOJ's doorstep per se - I think they inherited this. And that inheritance was further complicated as Blue well-states their going-in limitations, a lack of funds to go out and expand on the non-core part of hERO (I thnik we mostly can agree that just to get restarted and to get the faithful returned that the crunchy rules-centric concept-driven HERO is the one that needed to get stressed and could be most easily leveraged and least risk averse). But it is getting to be time to figure out a next step; if HERO is not going to be grown and will forever rest on being solely (not just at core) a niche within a niche, then they don't really have to do anything with it, and just hope the hobby stays large enough to support the product and that their marketing to this very niche audience remains up to speed; if HERO is to be grown/expanded in either user base or scope, then this must be addressed, period, in my view.

 

believe what you want to, but I find that 5th edition revised was worth buying for the improved layout and clarity and expanded examples. There are rules I thought I understood, but it took 5 or 6 readings in 5th, in 5th revised the text elaborates enough or provides examples that make the meaning quite clear and confirmed or corrected my interpretations from the previous editions.

 

This is an interesting statement to me, taken together. I agree re the first sentence in a general way, not so much examples or perceived clarity, but certainly in terms of layout and in something related that I think is important, a furtherance of the uniformity of much of the rules, settling some issues (I think other issues have been unnecessarily raised, but that's too much of a tangent at this point).

 

But I disagree in that if it takes 5-6 readings in 5th to understand we've been doing something wrong in 4th, I have a problem with that. I agree this has been the case in a few instances; in those instances (mostly) I would argue that what's happened is we've taken a point that was already esoteric and nuanced to begin with and simply made a legalistic and hard-to-follow nuance out of it where before it had some elegance in that a GM could apply the original "unclear" rule in an intuitive way which gelled easily with his campaign; now I think there's a distraction from that ease of implementation. I think Steve should follow his own advice more strongly and be willing to leave larger sections of the rulebook to "just use common sense and SFX, but here's a basic non-nuanced 'rule'."

 

You've got the "the write a sentance to explain it and let them figure it out further" school and you've got the "alright let's nail this down to the last detail" school. Steve obviously falls into the latter. I'm not a huge fan of that much detail' date=' but it HAS come in handy for me.[/quote']

 

I agree it comes in handy, and let me wail on a dead horse again as it bears so directly on your great point...

 

For a RULE BOOK, I am strongly of the "write a sentence...let them figure it out..." school you cite. It allows for stronger flow in execution of rules and I would argue that IMHO it handicaps the rules lawyers, most of whom (in my experience) are the type that want to buy "the rule book" and figure out efficiencies and legalistic challenges but rarely are philosophical in approach.

 

But as stated before, I think HERO would well benefit from a seriously devolved toolkit product that is annotated thoroughly and delves deeply into detail as 5ER does. As you say, Blue, this can be helpful. I think moreso than the current book, it would be most helpful if we had a toolkit book for those so motivated/interested to understand the inner workings and "whys" of the rules, which then would allow us to make the best-informed decisions. Right now the rulebook is too much of a mish-mash of the underlying philosophy/toolkit, the actual mechanics, and whoever's in charge's opinion of how those mesh. Again, I stress this is no criticism of DOJ as separate from HERO in general, it's an inherited situation and one which really didn't become an issue (again, IMHO) until 4th Edition when they (wisely, correctly) tried to tie it together most coherently and overtly into a single universal rules system.

 

My only real complaint about 5E campaign books is that they all feel incomplete to me. Terran Empire' date=' Champions Universe, Alien Wars, and The Valdorian Age are the most notable examples of this [i haven't read Hudson City or Ninja Hero']. Each of these books seems to give just enough information for to inspire an idea or two but never seems to close the circle of knowledge on any one thing. For such a detail-driven crunchy game system the source material also seems too sketchy to me.

 

Eh, I think bearing in mind the size and scope of the books they're as complete as they can be. Perhaps (?) what you're objecting to is the structure - to do genre play fully the HERO way and with the least "DIY" work, one has to buy Champions Universe but then also subsidiary products such as a resource book or three, setting or two, and a few modules. At that point it's, I think, exhausively complete. But the structure of the products is such that this can be prohibitive for some, and I feel there are competing products which manage to merge the functionality of a setting, a couple resource books, and the sub-genre section of a HERO genre book. The problem is whether it makes sense for HERO to create such products or whether their marketing strategy is better served with this current approach. You raise a good point. I think it's tied in with the idea of a HERO "all in one game book". Personally, I think an all-in-one game book would be the best way to go rather than a setting which represents a sub-genre and has some resource stuff in it. But if HERO and the marketplace for it can't go with all-in-one game books, perhaps all-in-one resource/setting books would be a good alternative.

 

I'm another one in that minority with you' date=' Nexus. I love the discussion of genres and things to consider much more than I like specific write-ups. I create my own worlds, so in general, books full of such write-ups (such as CKC) are pretty much only good as a possible source of ideas -- much like any book of write-ups for any system. [/quote']

 

I think there's a funny dynamic here in that many of us are this way as DD states to Nexus' point, I am the same. I think we're largely reacting to what we perceive as a need, although of course a few have spelt out their specific needs for complete products as well, noting those are just as important for DIY efforts as any sort of pure toolkit products.

 

And as for 5e reading and looking like a textbook' date=' I think that's a good thing. I think the plain black cover with the Hero logo stands out far more than most other gaming books which just tend to blend together on the shelves. And I've always felt that the writing in a game's rulebook should be much closer to technical writing than to fiction writing. I don't want a pile of fluffy flavor text, but instead clear, detailed descriptions of the rules. It's a reference book not something that's necessarily meant to be read cover-to-cover in one sitting.[/quote']

 

I agree in the respect that like a textbook it is of course a reference book and not intended to be read in a sitting or two or otherwise as a narrative. However, I think we've all read the rare great text book that was engaging as well as informative. If HERO is going to rest so heavily on being a tookit and a reference work (which I think it must in large part) then I think it must be a more engaging one. Personally, I found 4th "friendlier" to peruse, more personable. And I think a work like MnM suffuses itself with a flavor that complements, not detracts, from understanding the rules. I think HERO can and ought do the same. Just being a text book is no excuse to be flat and lack personality: the two concepts are not mutually exclusive.

 

I expected to come back to this thread and face the flames... to try and defend my off-the-cuff sports car metaphor...

 

... only to find some people actually liked it!

 

That's an odd sensation on these boards!

 

I think these conversations have come far enough that now we're starting to really see each others' points and that there has been a slow arising of a consensus that IF we want to broaden the appeal of HERO then such as you've discussed becomes important, even necessary.

 

I also think that you finally hit the nai on the head with the right analogy for most people! Other analogies or comparisons seemed to suggest a change in direction even though I don't think that's what you or most people, including me, really meant/mean. I think the sports car analogy does speak louder and clearer to this being part of a comprehensive product line, and not a replacement (a Fuzion!) attempt or such.

 

Anyway' date=' I do think discussions like these... and the Legendary Product (from now on called "The Sports Car!" ) thread are important. I'm a huge Hero System fan... but I'd also really like to find a Hero System based GAME that I could be gaga over. 1st through 4th Edition... Champions was that Sports Car. Not anymore.[/quote']

 

I think Champions was a funny thing, it was never quite a sports car and never quite a Model T, either. It inhabited a funny space, a space well-symbolized by the harsh computer-esque typeset of the original few products against the elegant simplicity and curvy lines of the actual system, a system which started as so amazingly elegant and simple that it's nearly unfathomable to see what it's become. It started as both crunchy and sporty, probably along the lines of how those people who have very tech-geek but sporty cars see those rather niche vehicles. I don't think we'll ever recapture Champions as it was...UNTIL (hmmm, no pun intended!) we do what RDU N suggests with an all-in-one game. In fact, I think Champions, the original game, compels us to think this way, now that I consider it - consider how impactful that game was and consider how easy it would be to release a Champions game that is entirely HERO but it is "Sidekick-ized". Speaking for myself, I've been seriously considering running a Champions First or Second Edition game anyway, just for fun.

 

I don't think you are in the minority' date=' at least not on these boards. HERO is a game for tinkerers whether they admit it or not. [/quote']

 

Just to be clear, I agree it's not a minority, I'm in as well!

[lemming]

Re: My two cents

 

Hate to nit-pick too much' date=' but 4th was really intended to be universal, the focus on Champions being really if you bought the bundled product which included both Champions and the HERO core rules. Wasn't there also a Fantasy version that did much the same?[/quote']

Nope. But there was a soft cover that only covered the Hero Rules that came out later.

[buzz]

Re: My two cents

 

In general, I think that a stand-alone, self-contained "Fueled by HERO" book or line is a waste of DOJ's time and money.

 

HERO's whole appeal is that it's a massive toolkit that allows you to roleplay any type of genre or setting you can imagine. In this regard, it stands head and shoulders above its few competitors. In the rules-heavy end of the spectrum, GURPS is really its only competitor. Like GURPS, HERO is a system that you "graduate" to once you've cut your teeth on "starter" RPGs like D&D or WoD. It's for serious gamers.

 

A stand-alone HERO "sub-RPG" removs the system from this lofty plateau and forces it to scrounge with all of the other one-trick RPGs trying to live off of D&D's table scraps. A self-contained fantasy HERO game, for example, would have to compete with D&D, HARP/Rolemaster, Exalted, Palladium, and every other FRPG out there. And what would such a product be trying to prove? That HERO, when tailored, does fantasy better than all of the rest? That's not the point. HERO, sorry to say, does NOT do fantasy better than all the other FRPGs out there. What it does do is do fantasy just as well as the best FRPGs, and, more importantly, does EVERYTHING better than any other RPG that tries to do everything.

 

I'm a direhard HERO fan, and I buy pretty much everything DOJ puts out. I would have no real interest in buying a modern version of Justice, Inc. or a self-contained Turakian RPG. I've already got all of the tools to do that.

 

Granted, I know that us diehards are not the target audience we're talking about, but I think that any HERO product should, ideally, appeal to both new and old customers. Not to mention the issues I raise above. What incentive would there be for someone new to HERO to buy the Turakian Age FRPG as opposed to any of the other 149 FRPGs out there? None! Sidekick and 5ER are far more compelling products, IMO. I mean, what sounds more enticing to you?

 

"See, in this fantasy game you roll 3d6 and use a point-buy system to..."

 

or

 

"This 128 page book gives you the basic rules to play in any genre you can imagine."

 

In the latter lay HERO's appeal.

 

It seems all too common that the solution to increasing the popularity of a system or RPGs as whole is to simplify and dumb thigns down. I don't really agree with this. HERO's complexity (read: depth, not difficulty) is its STRENGTH. To really attract lifers to the system, you need to be up front about that, not try to hide it. You're only going to attract fair-weather fans that way.

 

What I think would be a lot more useful for HERO would be to:

 

Use Sidekick as a loss-leader. Give copies of it away at cons, or at least sell it for some token sum, say $1. GoO did this with TriStat dX at GenCon, and I snapped up a copy without thinking. (Yes, I realize that emulating GoO might not sound like a great idea, but selling this book for $1 was not the source of their current problems.) Sidekick is a fantastic introductory product; selling people on it is WAY easier than selling them on 5ER. DOJ needs to get this book into the hands of as many people as possible; take the risk to make the cash later. I ran a HERO demo at a recent Chicago Gameday; when I ran out of Sidekick copies to give away as prizes (thanks, Tina!), people went and bought out the last copies the store had.

 

Put together a formalized demo package. A simple one-shot adventure, written out similarly to an instructor's lesson plan to aid GMs in using it as a teaching tool, would be a great item to make avaialble for download. Feature something along the lines of GURPS Infinite Worlds multi-genre setting so as to highlight how flexible HERO is. Make sure that it can be played through in about 2-4 hours. Put this package in the hands of every fan of the game and Legion of Heroes member.

 

Make the books prettier. It can't hurt. I mean, I do like the curent look of the line. We've had some very good covers. The layout is plain, but functional; it has a clean aesthetic that I like. Still, Reality Storm was a good example of other ways of presenting a HERO product. It wasn't the most gorgeous thing I've seen from GoO, but just seeing a HERO product wth their design sensibility was eye-openeing. I also think that any future revisions/printings of the main rulebook should have a more appealing, eye-catching cover. I'd be interested to see DOJ do a cover design contest a la SJG. The look of the new GURPS 4th line was VASTLY improved by that.

 

Decrease verbosity w/o decreasing clarity. Mammoth tomes are a HERO signature, but I do think that sometimes the books could be less verbose than they are. Anyway this isn't a huge issue, just something to keep in mind. Enhancing readability is all I'm really talking about.

 

If the above is not possible, split 5ER into two books. I think it's about time. Yes, we'd end up paying a bit more, but we'd likely end up with higher physical quality per book, and players would likely be able to get away with just buying the "Characters" book (or just Sidekick). DOJ would probably also reap a bigger profit; profit keeps them in business, and I want them to stay in business. (And, really, the probable price point of the two-book version would simply bring HERO in line with its competitors. Per page, 5ER is cheaper than D&D or GURPS. Yes, it's black-and-white, but still.)

 

Add flavor, simmer over medium heat. I never thought I would say this, but I'd like to see some game fiction creep into the books once in a while. Or some comic panels. As Zornwill said above, just because it's, essentially, a textbook, doesn't mean it has to be boring. (Not that HERO books are boring on the whole; that's the nature of rulebooks.) Heck, if smelly ol' White Wolf can do it, DOJ can.

[MitchellS]

Re: My two cents

 

I don't agree that Hero's whole appeal is that it is a massive toolkit. If that were the case so many fans wouldn't have jumped ship for lighter systems. As far as Hero being on a "lofty plateau," it doesn't do the company any good to be so high that new fans can't reach it.

 

It also seems odd that you seemed to recommend the exact opposite things for M&M on the GR forum. You wanted them to be less crunchy with their future sourcebooks to not destroy the lightness of the system [assuming you are the same buzz who posts there].

 

Hero's strength is not it's complexity, it is its versatility. A game can be both less complex and versatile at the same time. A die-hard fan isn't the target audience for an introductory book. You already know what the Hero System is because you learned it playing Champions [which it was for 20 years]. New gamers don't really have that option. If they can't immediately grasp and understand what the system is for they will just move on to another system. They are plenty to choose from.

 

Use Sidekick as a loss-leader

It would seem clear to everyone that DoJ cannot afford any more loss leaders. Sidekick should be priced at $15.00.

 

Put together a formalized demo package

Something like this takes both time and money and also relies on the idea that existing fans will get more people involved with the game system. That has been DoJ's tactic for 3 years. It does not appear to be working as well as they had hoped.

 

Make the books prettier

Finally something we can agree on.

 

Decrease verbosity w/o decreasing clarity

Something else we can agree on. This is a bad trend.

 

If the above is not possible, split 5ER into two books

Splitting the books in two does nothing to attract new fans. Now they are just required to purchase two books instead of one. I do believe DoJ is doing a combat book later this year though.

[zornwil]

Re: My two cents

 

To those who think there's an idleness, a lack of need/purpose, for HERO to support or directly do an "all in one game", please see KA's excellent post at http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=646149&postcount=1 - it's so simple I think people miss some salient points as they nod their heads and say, "Yes, but..."

 

KA made a particular statement that struck me:

 

I have been playing Champions for over 20 years.

 

But the book I got started with came in a box, with a map, and a module!

 

We should not forget these humble beginnings that got so many of us into this game.

 

Speaking for myself, I don't want to be among the last 10 guys playing this game.

[MitchellS]

Re: My two cents

 

To those who think there's an idleness, a lack of need/purpose, for HERO to support or directly do an "all in one game", please see KA's excellent post at http://www.herogames.com/forums/showpost.php?p=646149&postcount=1 - it's so simple I think people miss some salient points as they nod their heads and say, "Yes, but..."

 

KA made a particular statement that struck me:

 

 

 

We should not forget these humble beginnings that got so many of us into this game.

 

Speaking for myself, I don't want to be among the last 10 guys playing this game.

I agree completely. Most of us die-hard fans didn't have to start playing with a Hero "System." We started playing with a game called Champions which had rules, background, characters, a module, and a map. We started playing with everything we needed to become enthralled with the game and the system. All new gamers have is a 600 page book full of options.

[atlascott]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

Rep to zornwill for that great post!

 

Zornwill said "I think Champions was a funny thing, it was never quite a sports car and never quite a Model T, either. "

 

For me, I was a big comic book kid. My first game was D&D. I nearly flipped when I played V&V (Villains & Vigilantes). But, the system was very limiting. Then, a buddy of mine turned me on to Champions. This was back in the day where evern D&D had artwork that looked amateurish. The art and layout of Champs never bothered me then bc it was in line with what was basically the state of the art at the time. The rules and the genre was the sports car, for me!

 

I agree with all of MitchellS's beef's with buzz's post. Cutting down the verbiosity of the rules is GOOD. Splitting the rules into 2 books is BAD. Doing more to get Sidekick into people's hands is GOOD.

 

People by and large DONT play RPG's because of the complexity and completeness of the rules set. They play whatever rules set comes along with the cool genre book that caught their eye. Take a look at old Call of Cthulhu and current Armageddon/All Flesh Must Be Eaten for brilliant examples of black and white art and great narrative that gives people the 'WOW' factor on a budget, that really envelops the buyer, and that sells in some cases IN SPITE of the rules system (All Flesh and Armageddon--not the best system. If fact, when I ran those, I converted the settings into HERO!!!)

 

HERO DOESNT HAVE TO BE (AND SHOULDNT) BE ANY MORE COMPLICATED THAN ANY OTHER GAME SYSTEM (except during character generation, which is the strength of the system). The GM has to be a master of the rules, but by and large, HERO system rules are no more daunting than 3/3.5 D&D or other d20 for players to learn. Though anecdotal, this has definitely been my experience. The HERO rules make more sense than d20 rules, and that makes 'em easier, too. THERE IS NO REASON WHY GAMERS SHOULD BE THINKING 'HERO SYSTEM? OH THAT'S TOO COMPLICATED. THE RULES GET IN THE WAY OF THE GAME." The answer is rules that are more like Sidekick, and all necessary rules in the genre books. Less textbooks on how to create a cool setting, and more cool settings with rules, equipment, and enemies to play with. And better art/more consistent theme, and more/better narrative in the genre books, and DRAWINGS of the equipment/characters therein presented. Of course, there is no problem with breaking big genres down into multiple books.

 

This is expensive. We can all sit here and make these suggestions, but it may be that some, most, or all of these are too expensive for the company to institute. 1000 pages explaining a genre is great for us RPG scientists, but for the rest of gamedom, it just confirms HERO's rep as an overly-complex system.

[zornwil]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

Nexus, I'm not sure why you deleted that post, but it seemed pretty reasonable to me.

 

The devil here is all in the details. Virtually no one wants a Fuzion-esque debacle. And most aren't calling for a dramatic revamp of the HERO line as it's delivered now, though certainly we get on tangents about ideas thereof. Mainly, I think it's an issue along the lines of what HERO thoughtfully introduced with Sidekick - how do we create good, solid entry level products that engage new players.

 

Sidekick really is a good product and it doesn't dumb down HERO. I object to a few things being left out, but it's a remarkably good rulebook and I think most of these ideas are along the lines of Sidekick. And Steve (I think, I hope this isn't my bad memory!) was reacting to the core crowd, us, in responding to a need with Sidekick. And it seems that Sidekick has brought in some new players and alienated no existing ones. So I think this is really fertile ground.

 

But I agree there's also a cautionary note here - we absolutely should not, I believe/agree, alienate the current crunchy core in so doing these steps.

[zornwil]

Re: HERO system observations and beefs

 

PS - thanks atlascott. It's kinda easy to make great posts when I "steal" from the best (acknowledging it's built on others' views and work as well as my own thoughts).

[buzz]

Re: My two cents

 

I don't agree that Hero's whole appeal is that it is a massive toolkit. If that were the case so many fans wouldn't have jumped ship for lighter systems. As far as Hero being on a "lofty plateau' date='" it doesn't do the company any good to be so high that new fans can't reach it.[/quote']

I simply think that the answer to the "problem" being discussed is not to change the fundamental nature of the system, nor to appeal to the types of gamers who won't be interested in the full product. People always put forth the idea of simplification as the cure-all to the popularity of RPGs as a whole, or in this case, to a specific game. And it's almost always wrong. I know from what I've read from many of D&D's designers that the increased crunchiness has been a huge DRAW.

 

Look at the recent, glowing review of 5ER on RPG.net. One of the primary draws for the reviewer, a HERO newbie, was the flexibility of the full package.

 

Honestly, I think that once you boil down HERO to a ruleset designed for a specific genre or setting, you're removing the game's whole raison d'etre. You end up with a point-buy RPG that uses d6's. That's not the appeal of HERO. The appeal is the toolkit. I see no reason not to focus on that.

 

It also seems odd that you seemed to recommend the exact opposite things for M&M on the GR forum. You wanted them to be less crunchy with their future sourcebooks to not destroy the lightness of the system [assuming you are the same buzz who posts there].

Yes, that's me. No, I wasn't asking for less crunch. I was asking them to stick to the Annuals as a venue for article-length treatments of different genres, rather than HERO- or GURPS-esque sourcebooks. M&M is all about skinny books and not sweating details. I want it to stay that way (it's fundamentally different from HERO in that way; I see no reason to force it to change). I'm more than happy to see more crunch (powers, stunts, flaws, combat options) in future sourcebooks.

 

Hero's strength is not it's complexity' date=' it is its versatility.[/quote']

I specifically said I was using "complexity" as a reference to "depth", not challenging math.

 

And yes, it's versatility is its strength. Why focus on products that specifically remove that element of the system? Why turn back the clock to the '80s?

 

A game can be both less complex and versatile at the same time. A die-hard fan isn't the target audience for an introductory book. You already know what the Hero System is because you learned it playing Champions [which it was for 20 years]. New gamers don't really have that option. If they can't immediately grasp and understand what the system is for they will just move on to another system. They are plenty to choose from.

But that's just it. There ARE plenty of other system to choose from, especially if you're talking one-trick-pony RPGs that do one, and only one, genre. Why force HERO to compete in that market?

 

(BTW, HERO was Champions, and Champions-only for about a year or two. Then Espionage came out. Then a slew of other HERO-based RPGs came out. Then the BBB came out in 1989, and the HSRB soon after. Ergo, plenty of people came to HERO when it was generic. When I was introducing the BBB to my college buddies, the universailty of the system was EXACTLY what sold them on it.)

 

It would seem clear to everyone that DoJ cannot afford any more loss leaders. Sidekick should be priced at $15.00.

Upping the price now would be the kiss of death. Sell it for $9.95 in stores and online, sell it for $1 at conventions, give away free copies for demos.

 

Something like this takes both time and money and also relies on the idea that existing fans will get more people involved with the game system. That has been DoJ's tactic for 3 years. It does not appear to be working as well as they had hoped.

The demo kit that I'm envisioning would take maybe a weekend to put together. I'm seeing a short scenario that would take 2-4 hours. Add in some pregens and some specific guidelines for the GM on how to present the system to newcomers.

 

Steve Kenson ran an M&M demo along the lines of what I'm trying to describe at GenCon last year. The basic scenario would fit on 1-2 pages. The pregens were the iconics from the book (thus, already done). Add in 2-4 pages of "lesson plan" and you're done. Heck, get some of the LoH to help design the thing. Cake.

 

I'm also not sure about the "not working as well as they hoped" thing or the "gamers jumping ship for lighter systems" thing.

 

As for the former, let's have some perspective here. A little over three years ago, HERO wasn't even in print. Fans had been waiting years just for a definitive answer as to whether there'd ever be another edition. All we had going on was freaking Fuzion.

 

Now, sure, it hasn't been a great year for DOJ. It hasn't been a great year for most RPG companies. But look at HERO now. A steady release schedule of consistently awesome books which receive critical acclaim and numerous awards and nominations. HERO compares (and competes) with *GURPS* in terms of market-share. That's huge! From zero to HERO!

 

As for the latter, I'm not sure I see it. Yeah, you've got people like Darrin Kelley or tesuji who like to proclaim far and wide how switching to lighter systems has cured their male-pattern baldness and resurrected their long-dead dog (which big, bad HERO had shot, of course). But is that really what's happening in the marketplace? Not according to Ken Hite (about the most authoritative reporting on the hobby we've got).

 

And, heck, doesn't GoO make precisely the sort of products were talking about here? And they're floundering! Laid off everyone! DOJ is just proactively tightening its belt a bit.

 

Splitting the books in two does nothing to attract new fans. Now they are just required to purchase two books instead of one.

Having to purchase more than one book to fully play and GM an RPG is nothing new, and players new (and old) to the system can play just fine using their $9.95 copy of Sidekick.

 

Given the size of 5ER and the compromises that obviously had to be made in order to keep the book at a reasonable price-point, it simply makes sense to ask $10 more in order to produce two, logically-divided rulebooks of higher physical quality. DOJ's profits increase and we get nice books. This is exactly what SJG did with GURPS 4th, and they just reported having a very profitable year --another exception among a depressed market. (And no, it wasn't all Munchkin sales; GURPS 4th sold very strongly).

 

And if we're talking about newbies here, what's going to look more appealing? The big yellow phonebook, or the two crisp volumes with slick color covers?

 

Anyway, appeal aside, the book is just getting a bit unwieldly. I love it, but the next edition either needs to be shorter or split in two.

[buzz]

Re: My two cents

 

To those who think there's an idleness' date=' a lack of need/purpose, for HERO to support or directly do an "all in one game", please see KA's excellent post... KA made a particular statement that struck me...[/quote']

Here's the statement that struck me:

 

If someone had walked up to me and handed me Fred, I would have said:

"I already have these for school. You must be kidding. I have to read all this to play a game?"

I think this is a specious argument. Most RPGs are comprised of big, fat books. Some of the biggest offenders are some of the biggest product lines: D&D, GURPS, Palladium/RIFTS, WoD (2+ books to play in the nWoD), Exalted, Call of Cthulhu... this hasn't stopped any of them from being successful.

 

The gaming lifers, the ones who stick with the hobby and spend money on it, don't say things like, "This is a freaking textbook; I have read this to play a game?" They say, "Why aren't they supporting this RPG more? They've only printed 600 pages of material this year!" This goes for both the newbies and the grognards.

 

When I was a kid and I was told I needed to buy a stack of books to play D&D, I said: "Mom, when can you buy these books for me? Can we go to the hobby store now?"

[buzz]

Re: My two cents

 

All new gamers have is a 600 page book full of options.

No, they have a 128-page book of options.

[buzz]

Re: My two cents

 

I'd really be interested to know if there's an actual demand in the market for an all-in-one HERO product, or fi this is just a lot of old-timers spitballing while drunk with nostalgia. Has anyone from DOJ wiehged in on this issue yet?

[tesuji]

Re: My two cents

 

The gaming lifers, the ones who stick with the hobby and spend money on it, don't say things like, "This is a freaking textbook; I have read this to play a game?" They say, "Why aren't they supporting this RPG more? They've only printed 600 pages of material this year!" This goes for both the newbies and the grognards.

 

Actually, IMX this is, well at the very least, not a universal sentiment among gaming veterans or "lifers". My "group" and most of the gamers in know in this area, aren't going to be sticker shocked by page count for RPGs but they wont be drawn into it by page count either. heck a good deal are still staunch wargamers so they have plenty of rules heavy systems.

 

But, while my gang (avg age ~45 yo, with experience in gaming varying from ~30 years to 1 year) had no problem buying the ~500 pagers like black Company and Stargate or pnying up for the two WOD core books and so forth, the ones who bought hero 5 (none have ponied up for 5er and i doubt any will) did not find it as worthwhile.

 

the 500 pagers for BC/Stargate provided a game not a long list of rules, and most of the books were setting, style, and game stuff. Rules made up between 1/4 to 1/2 of the product. Even those were seen as on the upper end of "not quite too rules heavy" while the wonderful setting stuff made the book a better read, served to make each reading be inspiring of character ideas and campaign stories and themes.

 

So, while i think you are technically correct in that page count isn't dissuading people from buying some rpgs, i think it might be more accurate to consider that page count of rules might be.

 

There would be a huge difference, for example, if for my 600 pages i got a detailed game to run with setting and characters and stories jumping out, not just a detailed ruleset with some small amount of setting stuff just thrown in.