Presenting a genre using the toolkit

[Doc Democracy]

I thought I'd spin this off the 'stretching the core system' thread.

 

For example' date=' when I run my "Western Champions" game I intend to remove the speed chart with cards (Each player is delt a number of cards equal to his speed, then count down from Ace to Duece). I will also be using one of the options for the luck system, and representing the rerolls with poker chips.[/quote']

 

I'm interested in this as Shem said. when you were considering the campaign did you sit down and decide what genre 'bits' you wanted to emphasise?

 

Cowboys to me mean gunfights, gamblers, corrupt politicians, indians and horses.

 

If I was playing in a cowboy game I'd want these things to be paramount and therefore I'd want the bits of the system that emphasise these to be prominent and other bits to be completely absent.

 

As such I'd redesing the character sheet. I'd have a box for gunfights that's have OCV type data and room for weapon stats and manouevres. I'd have a box for horse stuff and what skills I have there. I'd have a box for social status - possibly bounty value would go in here as well. I think a lot of cowboy stuff would depend on social status so I might record Hunteds as well as Perks and other things in this box.

 

Haven't completely thought it through but I think nearly everything else would be hidden. Rather than list STR DEX etc I'd have a box for physical characteristics that would assume everyone was 10 unless otherwise stated. I'd give names to increased stats - Strong as a Horse for example might indicate STR of 18-20 and provide "+2D6 in brawling etc" on the character sheet. Lightning Fast might indicate a DEX of 18 and the character sheet would indicate that Shootin' etc would get a +3 bonus.

 

How would other people present a genre to their players? Anyone thought about it?

 

 

Doc

[shem_whistler]

Re: Presenting a genre using the toolkit

 

I thought that one of your original ideas was to list the stats and figured characteristics but change the name to fit the genre.

 

Didn't you use the example of guts instead of stun?

 

Maybe something like savvy instead of INT

 

Shem

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Presenting a genre using the toolkit

 

I thought that one of your original ideas was to list the stats and figured characteristics but change the name to fit the genre.

 

Didn't you use the example of guts instead of stun?

 

Maybe something like savvy instead of INT

 

Shem

 

That's right. If I felt the need to quote stats then I'd try to use more genre style names for them (stolen from Deadlands and so a good idea!).

 

I'm loathe to have something on the character sheet that I don't intend to come into play though. If I don't want people increasing INT on a point for point basis but instead through buying 'Savvy', which would be +5 INT then I shouldn't put INT on the character sheet, just somewhere to note that the person bought Savvy and can indicate the consequences of that.

[shem_whistler]

Re: Presenting a genre using the toolkit

 

Would you intend to have a starting character with 10 in each stat and then let them buy different traits at a set cost, Savvy, Tough, Lightning Fast, Silver tongued, etc?

 

Or rather than keeping the point buy system would you use template characters?

 

So a gunslinger might have tough and lightning fast and a politician might have savvy and silver tongued? Or is that to restrictive and too far removed from the crunchiness?

 

Shem

[RDU Neil]

Re: Presenting a genre using the toolkit

 

That's right. If I felt the need to quote stats then I'd try to use more genre style names for them (stolen from Deadlands and so a good idea!).

 

I'm loathe to have something on the character sheet that I don't intend to come into play though. If I don't want people increasing INT on a point for point basis but instead through buying 'Savvy', which would be +5 INT then I shouldn't put INT on the character sheet, just somewhere to note that the person bought Savvy and can indicate the consequences of that.

 

 

While I totally understand where you are going with this... I think this might be anethema to many Hero vets. The point of Hero to many (and partly to myself as well) is that the Character sheet looks the same for every game... characters from one game are insertable into any other Hero game, etc. That buying INT means the same thing, whether you are a Mad Scientist in a Dark Western game or an Astro-Physicist in a Sci-Fi game.

 

What you are speaking about (and in many ways I agree with) is divorcing the PLAY EXPERIENCE from that of classic Hero games... even though, behind the scenes, the mechanics can actually be traced back to Hero, if you wanted to do that. It's a radical thought... one that I'm caught in the middle about. I would never say "No" to someone building a game like this... but I wonder if I would play it. Part of what I like about Hero is that I have all the Combat Maneuvers memorized... so whether I'm a ninja assassin, a gunslinger in the old west, or Amazing Man in a supers game... Dodge means the same thing mechanically... I know what it does and doesn't do. I don't have to read new rules and flip through the book to find out that Dodge is called "Skeedaddle!" in your Dark Western game.

 

The place I come from in Hero is that I can run any game... but never have to read another game book. I hate reading game books... but I realize I might be in the minority on that. Give me a genre and five minutes, and I can come up with a game... using Hero.

 

I've gotten so used to Hero's neutral style, but I do realize that this style is, in and of itself, a barrier to entry. My concern is that if we move far enough away from the neutral to a very flavorful style... it may make game play more difficult because I have to relearn stuff I knew instictively before.

 

Of course, I'm not your market audience, either. You want people interested in Dark Westerns... and they could care less about the system, most of the time.

 

Hmmm... lots to think about.

 

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Doc Democracy again. DAMNIT!

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Presenting a genre using the toolkit

 

While I totally understand where you are going with this... I think this might be anethema to many Hero vets. The point of Hero to many (and partly to myself as well) is that the Character sheet looks the same for every game... characters from one game are insertable into any other Hero game' date=' etc. That buying INT means the same thing, whether you are a Mad Scientist in a Dark Western game or an Astro-Physicist in a Sci-Fi game. [/quote']

 

Yup. I think that HERO vets might not like it, though, given our technology now it shouldn't be too hard to have electronic files that can produce the Dark Western sheet - full of genre goodness - or the HERO geeksheet - full of crunchy goodness - depending on the player.

 

As a GM I may want to run a Dark Western game with players who would throw up their hands in horror that I planned to foist HERO on them but would lap up the Dark Western sheets without any realisation that they were HERO gaming.

 

I do plan to get round to designing this character sheet and a list of house rules for running a Cowboys game - when work, young baby and neglected wide allow...

 

Doc

[sbarron]

Re: Presenting a genre using the toolkit

 

I do plan to get round to designing this character sheet and a list of house rules for running a Cowboys game - when work' date=' young baby and neglected wide allow...Doc[/quote']Just in an effort to give this project a better chance for success (and quote possibly save Doc from an early grave), I recommend that in general, men should refrain from refering to their wives as "wide." They'd be better off just stepping in front of a on-coming train.

[atlascott]

Re: Presenting a genre using the toolkit

 

In a genre specific game, esp if you are playing with folks new to the system, I'd suggest good PD's, which facilitate quick character construction. Of course, vets can customize to their heart's content. Nothing like seeing what the full system can do to motivate players to read more and more of the full system...

[shem_whistler]

Re: Presenting a genre using the toolkit

 

In a genre specific game' date=' esp if you are playing with folks new to the system, I'd suggest good PD's, which facilitate quick character construction. Of course, vets can customize to their heart's content. Nothing like seeing what the full system can do to motivate players to read more and more of the full system...[/quote']

 

Agreed, I think that this style of representation of the HERO system would be good for new players and with that in mind charicature pregen characters would highlight what is possible.

 

This will then hopeflly lead to questions like, I know i'm a politician, but what if I used to be a gunslinger in my youth? Does that mean that I can have lightning reflexes as well?

 

Shem

[Phil]

Re: Presenting a genre using the toolkit

 

For what it's worth, I'll pipe up here. I played vanilla four-colour Champions with Doc Democracy, and even there he redesigned the character sheets (I think it must be his GM motif)

 

As a hardened hero player, I loved it. For the first time, the character sheet looked like a superhero, not like a list of numbers. He did the same thing with a league of extraordinary gentleman type adventure, restyling it again - alas, I missed that game. But I understand that too goes down well.

 

The context is a group of non-hero players, which is relevant to a great extent, but it also serves to illustrate the wider point of how HERO can be used as the nuts and bolts. Engineers may love to admire a chassis, engine and various nuts and bolts; drivers are interested in how it runs; the rest of us ignorant masses just look at it and say "that looks cool!". With a bit of work, HERO has the capacity to appeal to all of these people: at the moment, it's mostly the engineers who are drawn to it. In fact, a better parallel might be Windows vs. Linux. Whatever, i think you get the point!

[shem_whistler]

Re: Presenting a genre using the toolkit

 

As a hardened hero player' date=' I loved it. For the first time, the character sheet looked like a superhero, not like a list of numbers. He did the same thing with a league of extraordinary gentleman type adventure, restyling it again - alas, I missed that game. But I understand that too goes down well.[/quote']

 

I was lucky enough to make that one, well not that lucky actually, my PC's body was last seen disapearing into the depths of the Thames river leaving a trail of blood, but that's enough of my bad rolling, back to the point.

 

This was my forst exposure to HERO, and I'll be honest I didn't know it was HERO. Doc provided 5 pregens and we picked the type of character that we liked the concept of.

 

The powers were written as a paragraph of pure text (no numbers) that gave an idea of what they could do.

 

As I understand it now Doc had the full write up (or crunchy version) with him, us PC's just had what we needed to know to play the character.

 

To go back to a point from earlier.

 

Part of what I like about Hero is that I have all the Combat Maneuvers memorized... so whether I'm a ninja assassin, a gunslinger in the old west, or Amazing Man in a supers game... Dodge means the same thing mechanically... I know what it does and doesn't do.

 

I think that some people can take this to extremes, where instead of roleplaying they rollplay. What I mean by that is that they try to get every last point out of the system by choosing the combination of actions that gives the best result, I'm trying really hard to not say Min/max and munchkin but this is where my thoughts are heading.

 

Whereas in Doc's game I had to choose exactly what the character would do in a given situation based on flavour and style alone. Two things made this happen a) A lack of knowledge of the HERO system and The lack of crunchy bits on the form.

 

I think I actually prefered this style of play. In the past I have played in a TORG game where two of the PC's were gunbunnies and they have really slowed down combat sometimes by discussing, at length, what combination of attacks would get them that extra 1 to hit or extra 1 to damage.

 

I feel that this level of crunchiness should be reserved for out of the game and character creation, not in the middle of gameplay.

 

So for me Doc's version was a great introduction to the system, as evidenced by large number of HERO books now on my shelf.

 

Shem

[ghost-angel]

Re: Presenting a genre using the toolkit

 

I was gonna give rep to Neil for his arguement ... but I need spread it around some... dammit.

 

Anyways, yeah - the idea of Hero is any genre is interchangable. The terminlogy on the sheet is the same, if you add flavor at the talbe that'd be fine.

 

I also don't believe in the idea that something is bought as a whole like "Savvy" is a set plus to INT or somesuch.

 

As for those that Rollplay ... our group has a really nice trick of stopping that one in combat: You take to long you lose yoru phase. That's it. Combat is supposed to be fast, hard and full of mistakes.

 

But I'm crazy.

[Filkerman]

Re: Presenting a genre using the toolkit

 

For the first time' date=' the character sheet looked like a superhero, not like a list of numbers.[/quote']

 

 

Ok this is not really on topic but ---

 

If this custom supers sheet is accessible anywhere online I would love to see it. I'll even send Doc D a SASE.

 

I'm getting the fever to run a Champions campaign this summer after a long hiatus. The players will have only limited previous experience with Hero, and also limited comics exposure. The latter I'm fixing ahead of time by giving them a reading list, and lecture notes ("this is the kind of story and theme we will be emulating, and that you should have characters suited for. This other is not").

 

The best fantasy games I have been in have had genre-reflecting props. I'm going to introduce this trick in the game, with the belief that since the culture and technology of a standard superhero game is more modern than your typical fantasy world, it will seem fresh.

 

Anything new I can add to reinforce the feeling that we are 'in a comic book' will help, and I think the idea of a snazzy character sheet will go over big time with this group. I loved the 3rd Edition character sheets with the body templates on them. Anything in that vein, especially if color is involved, is gravy, IMHO. If you have ideas and experiences in this regard, I wanna hear it.

 

If this post derails the thread too much, feel free to email or PM me instead.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Presenting a genre using the toolkit

 

Ok this is not really on topic but ---

 

If this custom supers sheet is accessible anywhere online I would love to see it. I'll even send Doc D a SASE.

 

I'm at work just now. I'll have a scout through the files I have on my PC at home and see whether I've kept everything. If I have then I'll mail you what I have.

 

Will PM when I know...

 

 

Doc

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Presenting a genre using the toolkit

 

I also don't believe in the idea that something is bought as a whole like "Savvy" is a set plus to INT or somesuch.

 

Is that like I don't believe in ghosts?

 

I'm not sure what you mean. You don't believe that the GM should make packages that PCs can purchase?

 

Obviously this is all about the style of play. I know I can put together a package of stuff that makes HERO as playable as D20 in the minds of my group - but allows me to monitor balance issues whenever I want to add something new.

 

When I create a spell list for my Fantasy Hero game surely I'm just putting together a whole like 'Savvy' that provides a set plus to INT or somesuch??

 

I was using this thread to ask whether people have thought about altering the presentation of the game to their players through either the character sheet or limiting the available rules. I guess your answer is no!

 

 

Doc

[atlascott]

Re: Presenting a genre using the toolkit

 

Doc:

 

I think it is a GREAT idea. It would get more people playing HERO without them even realizing it (at first), then, as they got more into the game, they could explore the intracacies.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Presenting a genre using the toolkit

 

As for those that Rollplay ... our group has a really nice trick of stopping that one in combat: You take to long you lose yoru phase. That's it. Combat is supposed to be fast' date=' hard and full of mistakes.[/quote']

 

I prefer to simply say "well, you're delaying then" and move on to the next DEX. Same effect if you take long enough that your phase comes up again.

 

Actually, why wouldn't your roll player simply say "I delay" to buy himself some time. This assumes, of course, that you allow delays without a stated "until X" condition, but I think most groups do.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Presenting a genre using the toolkit

 

If this custom supers sheet is accessible anywhere online I would love to see it. I'll even send Doc D a SASE.

 

have attached a few sheets - two champions and two justice inc

 

 

Doc

[zornwil]

Re: Presenting a genre using the toolkit

 

Personally, I think some HERO vets would like a "skin" approach, wherein the rules are mostly the same or identical, but names change. I don't see this as a departure at all. And I think many HEROites who are into skins in technology wouldn't, either, and would welcome it.

 

Now, that being said, I realize that the idea is a very specific HERO-built product might not even look so similar, so I'm just reacting to one facet raised in this thread.