Why can't Teleport do the Move attacks?

[Phil]

Re: Why can't Teleport do the Move attacks?

 

A SPD 8 Nightcrawler vs SPD 2 Guards?

 

I'll give you that one.

 

Personally, I'm not so sure about SPD8 for Nightcrawler, but it might be a viable opportunity for 6 SPD Nightcrawler with + 4SPD (only to teleport (-1?-2?)) and DCV CSLs.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Why can't Teleport do the Move attacks?

 

If you want teleport to do velocity damage, why not buy (assuming your top move is 20"):

 

+7d6 Hand Attack(35)

Only useable with move by and move through (-1/2)

Only useable to same extent as damage adder for velocity going into teleoprt(-1/2)

Only following a teleport (-1/2)

Real Points 14

 

Bingo: instant 'velocity' damage. I'm sure you can polish the construct a little

[Dust Raven]

Re: Why can't Teleport do the Move attacks?

 

If you want teleport to do velocity damage, why not buy (assuming your top move is 20"):

 

+7d6 Hand Attack(35)

Only useable with move by and move through (-1/2)

Only useable to same extent as damage adder for velocity going into teleoprt(-1/2)

Only following a teleport (-1/2)

Real Points 14

 

Bingo: instant 'velocity' damage. I'm sure you can polish the construct a little

 

That looks a little chopy to me. For one, the rules forbit the Move by and Move Through maneuvers with Teleport, not just the damage gained from it, so the Only Usable With.." Advantage doesn't do anything. If you'd ruled that you can perform those maneuvers with Teleport, you don't even need this Power.

 

Here's how I'd change it:

 

Assuming a character with 20" of combat Teleport...

 

Teleport Move Bys and Move Throughs: Teleport +20" (40 Active); Only For Performing Half Moves (-3/4). Real Cost 23.

 

If you wanted Teleport to add some damage, you can buy an HA Linked to the above. Since Teleport doesn't have velocity, you can pick whatever damage you'd like. Personally, I'd require the base Teleport to have No Relative Velocity to accurately simulate the ability to reappear with extra velocity for doing extra damage.

[Phil]

Re: Why can't Teleport do the Move attacks?

 

Can I throw in a slight curve ball here, to use an americanism in a hopefully correct way!

 

What are we talking about here. We're talking about moving X distance, attacking, and then moving Y further distance, without crossing through the intervening space.

 

Short of using on the SPD options, none of the alternatives really satisfy, because you cant make a half-move after an attack, only before. If you really want to do this, it strikes me that the construction you need is Desolid combined with an attack that works while desolid (plus, if you want velocity damage, STR that works while desolid). If you're looking for a literal construction, this is the one. If you're looking for an abstracted construction, I'd suggest that nothing beats an EB AoE, range limited to the range of teleport.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Why can't Teleport do the Move attacks?

 

What are we talking about here. We're talking about moving X distance' date=' attacking, and then moving Y further distance, without crossing through the intervening space.[/quote']

 

If that's all the needs doing, a simple EB with Reduced Range (equal to Teleport inches) and Only Versus Targets In Teleport "Path", the path being defined when the character Teleports. Basically the character makes a Half Move the attacks a target that was declaired as being in the "path" of the Teleport. The fact that you are making the attck roll last, in stead of during or before the movement is irrevelant. It's the SFX that are important.

[Bluefire]

Re: Why can't Teleport do the Move attacks?

 

Its all special effects...

 

My take on it:

 

Xd6 EB (vs physical) indirect and only against targets in line of sight. Link to attack teleport*

 

Attack teleport* YY" of teleport, can only travel distance of a half move.

 

 

Put a bunch of "Tricks" into a multipower and you have a cool teleport based martial arts.

 

Just my opinion

-Bluefire

[Sean Waters]

Re: Why can't Teleport do the Move attacks?

 

Can I direct everyone's attention to the teleportation section of the online USPD?

 

http://www.herogames.com/USPD/teleportation.htm

 

The 'official' way is stretching or area effect EB to hit and move.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Why can't Teleport do the Move attacks?

 

Can I direct everyone's attention to the teleportation section of the online USPD?

 

http://www.herogames.com/USPD/teleportation.htm

 

The 'official' way is stretching or area effect EB to hit and move.

 

The stretching example (does not cross interviening space) would be difficult to to mesh with a Teleport defined with the special effect of super speed (must cross interviening space).

 

HM

[DangerousDan]

Re: Why can't Teleport do the Move attacks?

 

I think people are only considering the +1/2 modifier for Autofire on Teleport. That is incorrect. Remember' date=' there is an additional +1 modifier for applying Teleport to a non-standard attack power (EB, HA, RKA, HKA) with the only exception being Change Environment....[/quote']

 

Did you by any chance, mean "there is an additional +1 modifier for applying Autofire to a non-standard attack power..."

[prestidigitator]

Re: Why can't Teleport do the Move attacks?

 

For those of you considering a Triggered Teleport, remember that you have to take the time to set up the Trigger....

[prestidigitator]

Re: Why can't Teleport do the Move attacks?

 

I would probably do it as Stretching that doesn't have to cross intervening space (maybe Indirect for direction as well...). This avoids issues such as the Damage Shield thing, not being able to use Str, etc. It can also simulate a Move Through/By because you can add "Stretching Velocity" to your damage. Then I would link it to Teleport (the value of the Linked Limitation being determined by the total APs of the Powers and/or the amount of Teleport you need to use to do the attack; note that you can only use half your Teleport inches--do a Half Move--while executing the attack). Done. Mince the rest with SFX.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Why can't Teleport do the Move attacks?

 

BTW, I looked at some of those links, and I am frankly shocked at Steve Long's blatant statement that you cannot buy Ranged HAs. What are thrown weapons (the ones that arean't Ranged HKAs)? Any thoughts from anyone?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Why can't Teleport do the Move attacks?

 

For those of you considering a Triggered Teleport' date=' remember that you have to take the time to set up the Trigger....[/quote']

 

...unless it automatically re-sets, although that can get expensive.

 

I saw the movie again the other day and I'm pretty sure that a lot of it was just that NC was a lot faster than the guards, and he gets +DCV when teleporting, and he is pretty good at the sweep manoeuvre.

 

You could even build it as +SPD only to teleport (-1), so, for instance NC has SPD 12, but 6 of those SPD points are 'only for teleporting' - he'd act, in effect at SPD 6 for attacking, but could move between attacks on the other segments.

 

OK, SPD 12 is probably a bit extreme, but you could do it with SPD 4/8 which would be reasonable, or even SPD 6/8.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Why can't Teleport do the Move attacks?

 

BTW' date=' I looked at some of those links, and I am frankly shocked at Steve Long's blatant statement that you cannot buy Ranged HAs. What are thrown weapons (the ones that arean't Ranged HKAs)? Any thoughts from anyone?[/quote']

 

Energy blasts?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Why can't Teleport do the Move attacks?

 

Energy blasts?

 

Energy blasts, range limited by strength and something odd to allow you to add some strength damage - either a +1/2 advantage - 'can add STR damage' or...isn't this covered int the Equipment section? Don't have the book at present...

[GaryB]

Re: Why can't Teleport do the Move attacks?

 

Too much overthinking on the subject IMO. The best, and least unbalancing way without the need for house rules is to build a high speed character, with martial arts and a few special attacks. No need for made up limitations, high point advantages, or special house rules.

 

If you want autofire attacks you can still do them after a teleport. With Rapid Fire skills, autofire skills, etc its all within reason. The problem is that people seem to always want to teleport AFTER thier attack. To me, that just seems a little overpowered. High speed will take care of most of this.

 

High Speed + Teleport + MA Attacks seems plenty powerful enough to me, and doesn't make an unattackable god.

 

----

 

As for no Move Through/Move By attack with Teleport. Well...yeah. You aren't physically traversing those spaces so how could you attack something when you aren't there to do it.

 

I would however count running/flying/falling speed + teleport able to do a move-by or move into (at the end of the teleport)...but thats all you're going to get out of me. No special manuever (save making a martial one for it) after the teleport is done if you do a move-by/move through manuever. Why would I allow you to do an autofire attack with your move-though velocity? Seems rather wonky and can lead to balance problems if overused.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Why can't Teleport do the Move attacks?

 

Energy blasts' date=' range limited by strength and something odd to allow you to add some strength damage - either a +1/2 advantage - 'can add STR damage' or...isn't this covered int the Equipment section? Don't have the book at present...[/quote']

 

That's always been what's bugged me about the current HA. You can't put Range on it. I don't see why not, as it's the only way you can create a ranged, normal damage attack that you add STR to.

 

Of course, if you view HA as simply being EB with No Range, you can just by EB and apply a +0 Modifier "Adds STR". Personally, I'd adjucate that such a Power works like HKA and you can't more than double the dice of damage done by adding STR. The only problem with that is then the EB that adds STR costs the same as a normal EB and who'd want to by a normal EB when you can buy one that will automatically add at least 2d6 to the damage rolled?

 

Ultimately, I'd allow HA to take the Ranged Advantage and be done with it (same cost as a normal EB with no other Modifiers, but a higher Active Cost).

[prestidigitator]

Re: Why can't Teleport do the Move attacks?

 

Ultimately' date=' I'd allow HA to take the Ranged Advantage and be done with it (same cost as a normal EB with no other Modifiers, but a higher Active Cost).[/quote']

Yeah. Or allow the HA to take Ranged and disallow it the HA, "Limitation," even. Whatever. It seems to me that, "Str Adds Damage," and, "Ranged," are worth about the same value as an Advantage (also see my Raw Points proposal on Zornwil's thread), except that HA breaks all notions of adding Str to an attack, of course.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Why can't Teleport do the Move attacks?

 

Part of the problem is that HA allows you to use your STR as if it had the same advantages as the HA - adding range would allow you to do the same damage with a ranged attack as you could in HtH combat. You may not see that as a problem.

 

OTTOMH (Off The Top Of My Head) I'd allow HA to take the advantage: STR adds to damage at STR range (+1/2)

 

This would mean that:

 

1. You can do as much damage at range as in HtH

 

2. The range is limited by your strength

 

You'd could also buy ADDERS: +5 for balanced and +5 for aerodynamic: you can throw ANYTHING, but not everything is designed to be thrown.

 

Using adders favours more powerful weapons so you may want to repolace that with a +1/4 advantage.

[Fox1]

Re: Why can't Teleport do the Move attacks?

 

Since basic Teleport explicitly does not cancel velocity (which is why teleporting into a moving object can injure the character unless the character buys it with the No Relative Velocity advantage)' date=' there is absolutely no logical reason at least the first target of a teleporter who was already moving with Running or Flight prior to Teleporting would not get a velocity modifier for damage with a Move Through/By.[/quote']

 

This would argue against the velocity modifier for damage, but not against the Move-by by itself (i.e. port to target, strike for 1/2 STR damage with the modifiers, port on by). Is there something preventing one from making that type of porting movement?

 

It would still seem to be a valid tactic with a custom Martial Passing Strike.

 

Move-through would be out except that one could perhaps half move port to within running range of target and half move doe a run based move-through. Not an interesting effect however.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Why can't Teleport do the Move attacks?

 

This would argue against the velocity modifier for damage, but not against the Move-by by itself (i.e. port to target, strike for 1/2 STR damage with the modifiers, port on by). Is there something preventing one from making that type of porting movement?

 

It would still seem to be a valid tactic with a custom Martial Passing Strike.

 

Move-through would be out except that one could perhaps half move port to within running range of target and half move doe a run based move-through. Not an interesting effect however.

 

I disagree, it would be a very interresting effect. It would allow you to apply Indirect by way of Teleport to movement based attacks. The rules argument against this is that for this to work you would need to be able to make 3 half moves in 1 phase:

1. half move normal movement (leaping, running, flight, etc..)
   
2. half move Teleport (preferably with position shift)
   
3. another half move of normal movement (without this you have no 'normal-velocity' to add since your 1st half move ended your normal movement.)
   

#3. was hard to wrap my brain around. To see more of this argument see one of my earlier posts to this thread with several links into the Rules Thread with clearer explanations by Steve Long himself.

 

HM

[Fox1]

Re: Why can't Teleport do the Move attacks?

 

I disagree, it would be a very interresting effect. It would allow you to apply Indirect by way of Teleport to movement based attacks. The rules argument against this is that for this to work you would need to be able to make 3 half moves in 1 phase:

1. half move normal movement (leaping, running, flight, etc..)
   
2. half move Teleport (preferably with position shift)
   
3. another half move of normal movement (without this you have no 'normal-velocity' to add since your 1st half move ended your normal movement.)
   

#3. was hard to wrap my brain around. To see more of this argument see one of my earlier posts to this thread with several links into the Rules Thread with clearer explanations by Steve Long himself.

 

HM

 

It's useful tactically, although I wouldn't call it indirect. It was just moving in from an (perhaps) unexpected angle.

 

Tell me, why is item one needed?

 

Why not start with a half move t-port, then turn around (no turn mode for running) or do an acrobatic reverse and charge with your remaining half-move?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Why can't Teleport do the Move attacks?

 

I think the argument against it is that if you go into a teleport you come out with the same velocity BUT it is uncontrolled movement as you switched move modes and powers - your running stopped when you teleported, you can't turn it back on, and a movethrough is not possible with uncontrolled movement.

 

Teleport is incredibly useful for doing things flight can't - moving through walls, for example - so the 'can't use velocity for move through/by' thing is just a balance.

 

Part of the problem with all of this is Hero's disjointed approach to movement: you move on phases, you can half move, etc. In effect it is pretty much assumed you move and stop, move and stop...

 

There's no easy way around this, unless you ditch the speed chart and even then it is not straightforward.

 

I would have thought though that, if you were to buy teleport with 'useable as second mode of movement - (running, flight, whatever) this would enable you to switch movement modes without switching powers, which may, with a following wind and a generous GM, allow you to do a full move, part of which is a teleport, which includes a move through or move by.

 

There isn't a problem you can't solve if you throw enough points at it....

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Why can't Teleport do the Move attacks?

 

It's useful tactically, although I wouldn't call it indirect. It was just moving in from an (perhaps) unexpected angle.

 

Tell me, why is item one needed?

 

Why not start with a half move t-port, then turn around (no turn mode for running) or do an acrobatic reverse and charge with your remaining half-move?

 

attacking from an unexpected angle is one of the abilities that Indirect (at the higher levels) lets you accomplish.

 

I was referring to everyone's reference to using existing velocity.

 

That would be valid but then you aren't really T-porting right next to the target at that point since you have to be able to move at least 1-4" to get up to your full normal velocity for damage (5" accelleration/1" moved). Wouldn't give as much of a suprise OCV bonus that way (which IS the entire point of such an exercise anyway).

 

HM

[Fox1]

Re: Why can't Teleport do the Move attacks?

 

I think the argument against it is that if you go into a teleport you come out with the same velocity BUT it is uncontrolled movement as you switched move modes and powers - your running stopped when you teleported' date=' you can't turn it back on[/quote']

 

That's silly consider all the other things you can split your phase up doing.

 

Nope, won't do it. Is there a rule reference in 5th that I can noted as being overriden, or is it a FAQ?

 

 

 

Teleport is incredibly useful for doing things flight can't - moving through walls, for example - so the 'can't use velocity for move through/by' thing is just a balance.

 

 

I don't mind the 'no-velocity' thing. After all that defines T-port. I do mind the idea of no move-by with zero velocity. That defies logic.

 

I'm going with Martial Passing Strike with Nightcrawler with no velocity add as I've always done. Other porters can do move-bys with no velocity add, which given the 1/2 STR limit means they won't do it at all often as it will be basically ineffective.

 

And that's that.

 

 

 

 

Part of the problem with all of this is Hero's disjointed approach to movement: you move on phases, you can half move, etc. In effect it is pretty much assumed you move and stop, move and stop...

 

I've never needed to view it that way. But I'm good at wrapping my head around game abstractons.