Religious that won't emigrate

[Agemegos]

G'day

 

Imagine that there is going to be a lightspeed or slower wave of emigrations from Earth starting about AD 2100. The thing is that the JAFAL or NAFAL ("just-as-fast-as-light" or "nearly-as-fast-as-light") technology relies on an enormous high-tech very expensive but indefinitely re-useable 'encapsulator' that sits in Solar orbit sending out colony ship after colony ship. It won't cost any particular ship-load of colonists to pay their share of amortising the encapsulator, but it will be centuries at least before any colony is large, rich, and advanced enough to build an encapsulator of its own. Which means that no colonist who goes out is going to come back to Earth, nor are many of their descendants ever likely to do so.

 

It's going to be a diaspora, with different groups setting up colonies in different star-systems for different reasons, some of them to get away from people unlike themselves. Some of the colonies may be set up by religious separatists, others by religious utopists.

 

But it strikes me that some religions will be likely to send out colonies, and others less so. For example, no muslim who goes out on this emigration will ever perform the Hajj again, nor are his descendants likely to do so. No hindu who thus goes forth, nor many of their descendants, will ever again bathe in the sacred Ganges. No jew who thus goes forth, nor any of his descendants, will ever worship at the Third Temple.

 

So: which religions are unlikely to establish separatist or utopist colonies under these conditions?

 

Regards,

 

 

Brett

[Mutant for Hire]

Re: Religious that won't emigrate

 

Well, the important thing to realize is that there are hardliners and then there are people who are a little more flexible about their religious faith. And for that matter, there can be things like collective vows for their descendants someday to return to Earth.

 

If Jews were that fanatic about Israel, you'd never see a Jew living outside of Israel, they would have all emigrated there. I can easily see some more relaxed Jews deciding to found a New Israel on some world far away. Likewise a New Mecca. Muslims on the trip could bring stones or other relics from the real Mecca to set up a proxy on the world that they are going to.

 

While there will be fanatics who will be against emigration to the stars for the reasons that you cite, most people aren't nearly that inflexible.

[Curufea]

Re: Religious that won't emigrate

 

I'm afraid most (but not all) religions will emigrate. While core/orthodox religions and the smaller fundamentalist heresies are likely to stay on Earth because of sacred sites - there are MANY modernist heresies in every religion that will have no problems at all with taking their beliefs out into the universe.

 

Naturally, once they are out there, they will change yet again, so the heresies that go into space will then be different from their parent heresies on Earth.

 

It's like the evolution of language, really.

 

But, just bear in mind - you can't really say "Jews", "Muslims", "Buddhists" or "Christians" and expect all the various variations to follow the same party line. Every major classification covers a multitude of different dogmatic beliefs. Baptists are different from Charismatics, Zionists are different from Orthodox Judaists etc...

[Guest Major Tom]

Re: Religious that won't emigrate

 

Agemegos: Did you, by any chance, happen to check out Travellerne's "New

Abbey" campaign thread when it was up on the board last year? I'm asking

because after having read what's been posted to this particular thread thus

far, it struck me that what you've suggested here would fit in very well with

what Travellerne had on his thread (perhaps as a "What Has Gone Before"

part of the campaign's background).

 

 

Major Tom

[Icel]

Re: Religious that won't emigrate

 

Take it from an Israeli- In modern day Israel there are some people how wants Israel to be a state of religion.

Expand that concept a little, and you get people how object leaving "Secret Earth"...

[Agemegos]

Re: Religious that won't emigrate

 

Agemegos: Did you' date=' by any chance, happen to check out Travellerne's "New Abbey" campaign thread when it was up on the board last year?[/quote']

 

Yeah, I followed it for a few pages, and then decided that it took an attitude to creating a plausible history that is very different from what floats my boat, and rather lost interest.

[Mutant for Hire]

Re: Religious that won't emigrate

 

There are Christians who seriously want everyone to move to some low densely populated state and set up a Kingdom of God. I expect those types to be the first to volunteer to set up a new world and set up some theocracy.

 

Incidentally, I wouldn't be shocked to see some hardline political types also decide to set up their own utopias. Libertarians, Marxists, etc.

 

Getting back to the religious types, remember that man is a rationalizing creature, not a rational one. In the end, a lot of these religious worlds will decide that they are probably holier and purer and so they can have holy sites on their own worlds.

 

Powers help these worlds after FTL is invented because two worlds both founded by religion X are likely to have drifted in different directions.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Religious that won't emigrate

 

The only religious group I can think of who might universally refuse to go into space are Amish -- and even with them I wouldn't be too sure.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Religious that won't emigrate

 

Yeah, to tell the truth, I could see the Amish starting a colony, and hiring non-Amish to run whatever spaceport they decide they need. And as long as they can provide their own tools and food, that would be extremely small.

[That Masked Man]

Re: Religious that won't emigrate

 

While I don't expect any large and diverse sect will universally refuse to emigrate, some smaller groups might. Also, I think some groups would be more likely to emigrate than others and some would need to adapt more to living off the Earth than others. The Gripping Hand comes to mind as a novel that brings up this issue, at least to some extent.

[Outsider]

Re: Religious that won't emigrate

 

How are the Earth/Sol system politics, in your future?

 

If there is One Big Universal Government that runs the Encapsulator, it could well decide that it doesnt want fringe groups colonizing other worlds, since that will lead to headaches down the line. Better to keep them here on earth where the OBUG can keep an eye on them.

 

Or, if it is a little shorter sighted, it could using the Encapsulator Colonies as a way of removing 'undesirables' and the 'hard to govern' from Sol system, meaning almost all colonists will be religious or political minorities. They may even be colonists against their will. If it is evil, it might be sending the undesirable colonists to marginal colony worlds, while saving the 'veritable Edens' for OBUG loyalist colonies. It may or may not be publicly known that 'undesirables' are getting the shaft on colony world quality, depending on the power of the world govt. If it is really eeeeevil, it just shoots the 'undesirables' off into space without an actual colonizable world as a target, just to get rid of them. Tell people that the target world is a nice place, 60 light years distant, and nobody will be the wiser until the colony ship gets there and its message gets back, 120+ years later...

 

 

 

OR, if Earth/Sol system is still balkanized, and just how expensive an encapsulator is, there could be more than one in operation and under different controlling authorities. Really nice planets that are close by would probably have multiple Encapsulators sending multiple capsules each to them, meaning that their future will likely be multi-cultural/lingual/religious. More marginal and/or distant colonies would be the ones to get single capsule colonies consisting of religious or political types who want to set up their own situation and not be bothered in the future. Given that their starting position on a marginal world is harder, they will likely be of little account in the more distant future.

[Basil]

Re: Religious that won't emigrate

 

G'day

 

{snip a bit}

Some of the colonies may be set up by religious separatists, others by religious utopists.

 

But it strikes me that some religions will be likely to send out colonies, and others less so. For example, no muslim who goes out on this emigration will ever perform the Hajj again, nor are his descendants likely to do so. No hindu who thus goes forth, nor many of their descendants, will ever again bathe in the sacred Ganges. No jew who thus goes forth, nor any of his descendants, will ever worship at the Third Temple.

 

So: which religions are unlikely to establish separatist or utopist colonies under these conditions?

The ones that couldn't adapt to 10+ year trips from Saturn and its moons, (and even farther out) to Earth and back.

 

Seriously, the problems you raise would've already been addressed well before the "encapsulator" would be built -- at least, that's how it looks to me.

 

Now, since one of the pillars of Islam is to *try* to make Hajj, while bathing in the Ganges and "next year, in Jerusalem" are more guidlines, I'd see it being more of a problem for Muslims. However, as others have already said, there are degrees of "hardlineness" in every religion.

 

The religions I'd see having less problems with JAFAL/NAFAL would be Buddhism (you can achieve nirvana anywhere), Confucianism/Taoism (right conduct is right conduct), and many forms of Christianity (esp. mainstream Protestantism)(god is everywhere).

 

All IMO, of course.

[Highwayman]

Re: Religious that won't emigrate

 

The only religious group I can think of who might universally refuse to go into space are Amish -- and even with them I wouldn't be too sure.

 

I lived near an area with a small Amish population for a while. The particular sect that had settled there (and there are several, with all kinds of shades of opinion on modern technology) had no objection to riding in cars, just to owning them. And since farming is their ideal occupation, there's always a need to find land for their children. I could see them going off-planet if the technology was available and affordable.

[Vondy]

Re: Religious that won't emigrate

 

 

No jew who thus goes forth, nor any of his descendants, will ever worship at the Third Temple.

 

Brett

 

This opinion is not rooted in Jewish tradition or practice. It is therfore inherently flawed as an assessment of what Jewish scholars might conclude on the matter. There are several very good reasons a Jew might be required by Jewish Law to emigrate, and the prohibition against private alters, or building a public alter in a place other than the Temple Mount in Jerusalem was laid down by the Senhedrin, not the Torah. In fact, the Tabernacle in the desert was mobile, and before Solomons Temple, was to be found in Shiloh, among other ancient settlments. A Senhedrin could reverse such a decision, and what's more, even if the Third Temple were built in Jerusalem, its possible, off the planet Earth, that building another Temple, would be permitted, or even, gasp, a religious imperative.

[Vondy]

Re: Religious that won't emigrate

 

Take it from an Israeli- In modern day Israel there are some people how wants Israel to be a state of religion.

Expand that concept a little, and you get people how object leaving "Secret Earth"...

 

Wait just a cotton pickin' minute. You play Hero, and you live in Israel?

 

I AM NOT ALONE!!!

[Outsider]

Re: Religious that won't emigrate

 

Wait just a cotton pickin' minute. You play Hero, and you live in Israel?

 

I AM NOT ALONE!!!

 

And you live close enough (by default!) to get together for a weekly game!

 

 

(No, not -really- true, but Isreal isnt very big...)

[Vondy]

Re: Religious that won't emigrate

 

And you live close enough (by default!) to get together for a weekly game!

 

 

(No, not -really- true, but Isreal isnt very big...)

 

Um, yeah. Well, he/she/it lives about five kilometers outside of Haifa. I'm not taking a two hour trip, each way, for a game.

[Outsider]

Re: Religious that won't emigrate

 

Um' date=' yeah. Well, he/she/it lives about five kilometers outside of Haifa. I'm not taking a two hour trip, each way, for a game.[/quote']

 

Back in my college days, one of the guys drove 300 miles (~5 hours, nice Interstate freeway) each way every weekend for a game. But then, he (and we) were all single men in our early 20s back then.

[austenandrews]

Re: Religious that won't emigrate

 

Um' date=' yeah. Well, he/she/it lives about five kilometers outside of Haifa. I'm not taking a two hour trip, each way, for a game.[/quote']

It takes two hours to go 5 km? Walking, I assume?

[Agemegos]

Re: Religious that won't emigrate

 

It takes two hours to go 5 km? Walking' date=' I assume?[/quote']

 

You are assuming that Von D lives in Haifa.

[Agemegos]

Re: Religious that won't emigrate

 

Back in my college days' date=' one of the guys drove 300 miles (~5 hours, nice Interstate freeway) each way every weekend for a game. But then, he (and we) were all single men in our early 20s back then.[/quote']

 

I drive about 3 hours each way for a game about every other Saturday.

[Vondy]

Re: Religious that won't emigrate

 

It takes two hours to go 5 km? Walking' date=' I assume?[/quote']

 

I live in Beit El, which is in the exact center of the country. They live near Haifa, which is on the border with Lebanon. I would have to drive north to Ariel, West to the coast, and then north to Haifa to get there (since driving through Tulkarem or Jenin has been a Bad Idea since Oslo).

[Vondy]

Re: Religious that won't emigrate

 

You are assuming that Von D lives in Haifa.

 

My "location," oddly, is Beit El.

 

I referred to haifa because that's the closest city to Nesher, which is where they live.

[austenandrews]

Re: Religious that won't emigrate

 

You are assuming that Von D lives in Haifa.

I don't know the first thing about the geography of Israel. I'm just assuming that the average car goes more than 2.5 kph.

 

Edit: Never mind, you're right, I guess I was assuming that. See my first sentence.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Religious that won't emigrate

 

I'm not taking a two hour trip' date=' each way, for a game.[/quote']I would ... but not in Israel.