Stretching + HTH Attack + Move By?

[Blackberry]

I'm building a character who has 20 STR, 10" Stretching, +4d6 Hand Attack, and 10" Running.

 

If she does a Move By, how exactly is it calculated? Is Stretching velocity technically part of the Move By velocity, and is Hand Attack technically part of Strength?

 

A) (4d6 STR / 2 = 2d6) + 4d6 HA + (2d6 Run) + 3d6+1 Stretching = 11d6+1

(4d6 STR + 4d6 HA / 2 = 4d6) + (2d6 Run) + 3d6+1 Stretching = 9d6+1

C) (4d6 STR / 2 = 2d6) + 4d6 HA + (10" Run + 10" Stretch = 20" = 4d6) = 10d6

D) (4d6 STR + 4d6 HA / 2 = 4d6) + (10" Run + 10" Stretch = 20" = 4d6) = 8d6

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Stretching + HTH Attack + Move By?

 

I'm building a character who has 20 STR, 10" Stretching, +4d6 Hand Attack, and 10" Running.

 

If she does a Move By, how exactly is it calculated? Is Stretching velocity technically part of the Move By velocity, and is Hand Attack technically part of Strength?

 

A) (4d6 STR / 2 = 2d6) + 4d6 HA + (2d6 Run) + 3d6+1 Stretching = 11d6+1

(4d6 STR + 4d6 HA / 2 = 4d6) + (2d6 Run) + 3d6+1 Stretching = 9d6+1

C) (4d6 STR / 2 = 2d6) + 4d6 HA + (10" Run + 10" Stretch = 20" = 4d6) = 10d6

D) (4d6 STR + 4d6 HA / 2 = 4d6) + (10" Run + 10" Stretch = 20" = 4d6) = 8d6

 

That's a good question. If I had to guess, I would go with either option A or C since I am pretty sure that HA damage does not get decreased but I am not sure about the velocity damage of Stretching. You may want to post this question to the Rules thread for Steve L. to answer.

 

HM

[Dust Raven]

Re: Stretching + HTH Attack + Move By?

 

Off the top of my head, I'd have to say C is correct, but I'm not sure about adding and max damage stuff. Hopefully Lord Liaden will chime in (I think he's the one who answerd a similar question I had a while back and cleared things up). In any case, I know for a fact that A and B are incorrect, because you can't get 3d6+1 damage from 10" of stretching... actually you can't get a d6+1 from adding damage from movement or stretching... it's whole dice only.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Stretching + HTH Attack + Move By?

 

(Disclaimer: 4th Ed holdout. No idea on how 5th/5th revised does things.)

 

I would not consider Stretching to really be a movement power, so would not have it do velocity damage. If 5th does that, it's lame. IMO, but I'm right of course. Someone wanting to use their Stretching to move can use it as a justification for buying extra running/swinging, IMO. Someone wanting to use the "snap" effect for extra damage can buy HA, IMO.

 

HA should be affected by the divisors just like STR. If 5th doesn't do that, it's lame. IMO, but I'm right of course.

 

I would consider the move by to be (4d6Str+4d6HA / 2 = 4d6) + 2d6 for Running = 6d6 total.

 

If Stretching counts as movement, you couldn't use both it and running to get full effect from both. If there's some special "Attacks with Stretching get free damage bonuses" effect in 5th...whatever.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Stretching + HTH Attack + Move By?

 

(Disclaimer: 4th Ed holdout. No idea on how 5th/5th revised does things.)

 

I would not consider Stretching to really be a movement power, so would not have it do velocity damage. If 5th does that, it's lame. IMO, but I'm right of course. Someone wanting to use their Stretching to move can use it as a justification for buying extra running/swinging, IMO. Someone wanting to use the "snap" effect for extra damage can buy HA, IMO.

 

HA should be affected by the divisors just like STR. If 5th doesn't do that, it's lame. IMO, but I'm right of course.

 

I would consider the move by to be (4d6Str+4d6HA / 2 = 4d6) + 2d6 for Running = 6d6 total.

 

If Stretching counts as movement, you couldn't use both it and running to get full effect from both. If there's some special "Attacks with Stretching get free damage bonuses" effect in 5th...whatever.

 

How it's done now, is that HA doesn't add to STR before being halved by the maneuver. The total for your example would be 8d6. I've been a bit iffy about the velocity for Stretching, but basically the idea is that you limb is striking out 10" away from you, and at the speed it should inflict more damage than when striking adjacent. I hardly every see it come into play however.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Stretching + HTH Attack + Move By?

 

How it's done now' date=' is that HA doesn't add to STR before being halved by the maneuver. The total for your example would be 8d6. I've been a bit iffy about the velocity for Stretching, but basically the idea is that you limb is striking out 10" away from you, and at the speed it should inflict more damage than when striking adjacent. I hardly every see it come into play however.[/quote']

 

Ah, so the extra reach isn't enough of an advantage. I see. I assume that characters with enough Growth to get extra reach don't get the same bonus, even though the effect (ie: reach) is the same.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Stretching + HTH Attack + Move By?

 

Ah' date=' so the extra reach isn't enough of an advantage. I see. I assume that characters with enough Growth to get extra reach don't get the same bonus, even though the effect (ie: reach) is the same.[/quote']

Actually, I believe characters with Growth can add damage to their attack if they perform it as they are growing too. I'm pretty sure that's written up under the Growth Power.

 

Oh, and (as an aside) if you are comparing Stretching and Growth, note that Growth doubles your reach for a given number of points, whereas Stretching just adds a constant length to your reach for a given number of points. I guess you can technically increase your Non-Combat Stretching, but then you are at 0 OCV, and Growth has no such Limitation....

[prestidigitator]

Re: Stretching + HTH Attack + Move By?

 

How it's done now' date=' is that HA doesn't add to STR before being halved by the maneuver. The total for your example would be 8d6. I've been a bit iffy about the velocity for Stretching, but basically the idea is that you limb is striking out 10" away from you, and at the speed it should inflict more damage than when striking adjacent. I hardly every see it come into play however.[/quote']

Are you sure about that, Dust Raven? Because as far as I know, HA is Strength, it is just Strength that can't be used for anything but damage. I don't see any reason that the velocity damage from Stretching can't add to the velocity damage added by a maneuver like Move By. It makes sense from both a consistency standpoint and a conceptual one (the velocity of your hand--or whatever is doing the striking--is your movement velocity plus the velocity of the appendage relative to you; i.e. the Stretching velocity). In any case, remember that the damage cannot exceed twice the damage of your base attack (hmm. On that note I can't remember. Is the base attack considered just your Strength, or is it your full Strength plus HA?).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Stretching + HTH Attack + Move By?

 

Are you sure about that' date=' Dust Raven? Because as far as I know, HA [i']is[/i] Strength, it is just Strength that can't be used for anything but damage. I don't see any reason that the velocity damage from Stretching can't add to the velocity damage added by a maneuver like Move By. It makes sense from both a consistency standpoint and a conceptual one (the velocity of your hand--or whatever is doing the striking--is your movement velocity plus the velocity of the appendage relative to you; i.e. the Stretching velocity). In any case, remember that the damage cannot exceed twice the damage of your base attack (hmm. On that note I can't remember. Is the base attack considered just your Strength, or is it your full Strength plus HA?).

 

I can't find an FAQ reference to using Stretching acceleration in addition to Move By or Move Through velocity damage but here is one of the related rules regarding HA's from both the old and new FAQ's:

http://www.herogames.com/SupportFAQs/rules/COMBAT%20AND%20ADVENTURING.htm

http://www.herogames.com/SupportFAQs/revisedrules/COMBAT%20AND%20ADVENTURING.htm

 

Q: If a character performs a Move By/Through, can he add his Hand-To-Hand Attack damage to it?

 

A: Yes, provided the GM believes that makes sense based on the special effects of the HA and the Combat Maneuver. For example, if the HA is defined as a club, a character might be able to run past someone and smash them with it (Move By), but couldn’t use those HA dice when tackling someone (Move Through). In some cases, such as the Battering Ram speedster power in The UNTIL Superpowers Database, a character might buy HA with a Limitation indicating that it only works with Move By/Through.

In any event, the damage from the HA dice should not be halved

, though the GM is free to do so if he feels that’s necessary to maintain game balance.

With regard to base damage, HA does count as base damage for purposes of doubling via other manuevers.

 

HM

[Dust Raven]

Re: Stretching + HTH Attack + Move By?

 

Ah' date=' so the extra reach isn't enough of an advantage. I see. I assume that characters with enough Growth to get extra reach don't get the same bonus, even though the effect (ie: reach) is the same.[/quote']

 

The reach gained from Growth equates to Stretching, and Stretching is used to buy the reach of naturally large characters. There isn't any "velocity" bonus from it though, and when Stretching is used for the reach of large character it's always bought with the "Velocity Doesn't Add Damage" Limitation in all the examples.

 

Growth does give you extra damage if you attack while growing though, which I suppose works on the same principle as using velocity from Stretching. Instead you are using the "velocity" of suddenly being much taller.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Stretching + HTH Attack + Move By?

 

Are you sure about that' date=' Dust Raven? Because as far as I know, HA [i']is[/i] Strength, it is just Strength that can't be used for anything but damage. I don't see any reason that the velocity damage from Stretching can't add to the velocity damage added by a maneuver like Move By. It makes sense from both a consistency standpoint and a conceptual one (the velocity of your hand--or whatever is doing the striking--is your movement velocity plus the velocity of the appendage relative to you; i.e. the Stretching velocity). In any case, remember that the damage cannot exceed twice the damage of your base attack (hmm. On that note I can't remember. Is the base attack considered just your Strength, or is it your full Strength plus HA?).

 

The thing is, HA isn't STR with a Limitation. It's HA. Basically, you can think of it as also being called Damage Class, but has no range and the name Hand Attack sounds more appropriate. The HA Limitation is there to represent there are things you can't do with it that you can do with other attack powers (like spreading an EB, and yes, having no range).

[prestidigitator]

Re: Stretching + HTH Attack + Move By?

 

The thing is' date=' HA [i']isn't[/i] STR with a Limitation. It's HA. Basically, you can think of it as also being called Damage Class, but has no range and the name Hand Attack sounds more appropriate. The HA Limitation is there to represent there are things you can't do with it that you can do with other attack powers (like spreading an EB, and yes, having no range).

Yeegs. I just re-read it. I guess so.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Stretching + HTH Attack + Move By?

 

From 5ed.

Each die of HA adds to the character's regular damage from STR.... This Limitation signifies that the HA damage only works if it adds to a character's damage dice based on STR (in essence, HA is just a Limited form of STR).

I'd say it adds to Str before you divide by 2.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Stretching + HTH Attack + Move By?

 

I'd say it adds to Str before you divide by 2.

Oh. Just read the FAQ part posted by someone else, though. As usual, the FAQ states it in the opposite way the book would imply.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Stretching + HTH Attack + Move By?

 

(in essence, HA is just a Limited form of STR).

 

This is one of those things I completely disagree with. It's also about the only thing I feel is wrong and should be omited from the book. This one little phrase. It confuses so many players and removing it wouldn't even change the rules... just stop players from making assumptions about HA.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Stretching + HTH Attack + Move By?

 

This is one of those things I completely disagree with. It's also about the only thing I feel is wrong and should be omited from the book. This one little phrase. It confuses so many players and removing it wouldn't even change the rules... just stop players from making assumptions about HA.

I think you've got a point there, and I agree with you.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Stretching + HTH Attack + Move By?

 

I'd say 'A', gross as that seems...well, almost. I'd say 11d6.

 

First you half your STR and add the HA (without halving) (2+4), you get to add your velocity/5 (+2) but stretching is not a movement power and all the references to velocity in the write-up are in inverted commas and they call it momentum damage, so it doesn't count as velocity you can add to the running. (I've argued in the past stretching should be a movement power, with a cost amended to take this into account,but no one listened. Sigh.)

 

Finally you add the stretching damage, which is 3d6, not 3d6+1 (you get 1d6 for each FULL 3" of stretching, it isn't given pro-rata by the rules, and there are no part damage classes for added damage). Total 11d6.

 

I would be a bit careful though, and apply some limits on this: you'd gave to strike at least 2" before you hit the target to get the stretching momentum, and you'd have to be at full speed when you do, so the character would have to start at least 4" away from the target to get maximum damage. Moreover if you were doing multiple move-bys I'd only allow the stretching damage on one of them. You can't use stretching damage for indirect attacks either, so you'd have to be running pretty much straight at the target - you'd need to pass through an adjacent hex, or at least be aiming fo one when you hit - no running by 10" away. Other than that it is legal and pretty deadly, given that the equivalent move through is only 14d6.

[TheEmerged]

Re: Stretching + HTH Attack + Move By?

 

One of the players in my campaign is fond of a power construct he calls "Bouncing Boy", after the Legion of Super Heroes character (DC). Basically it's built around low-to-moderate brick STR, moderate-to-high movement, and Absorption -- the character performs multiple Move By/Thru, with the "blowback" damage feeding his Absorption into Strength. The more often he hits, the harder he hits...

 

I say this only to say I have some experience with Move By oddities What follows is my opinion -- no more, no less...

 

RE: HA and Move By/Thru. I'm from the school that says HA represents STR with No Figured more than EB No Range. As such I'd require a Darn Good Reason for an HA to be figured outside the halving -- ditto with Martial Damage Classes.

 

If your interpretation of HA is different? You're welcome to your opinion; I've certainly changed mine a few times on other issues. However I'd like to hear your reasoning as to why RKA and HKA have the same cost but HA and EB don't. (Tone note: I'm being serious/curious, not catty/sarcastic)

 

RE: Stretching Velocity Damage. The player mentioned above has mentioned the possibility of adding Stretching to his EC -- as soon as he can justify it under the theme of "Humanoid Insect Powers"

 

Now, as I understand the logic of 'stretching velocity' it's based on the idea that your fist is moving faster as being stretched.

 

As such, I'd allow it to be added *as an outright bonus* -- for the first hit, and maybe a second hit if the character has the Two-Weapon (or Fisted) Fighting or Rapid Attack skills to represent hitting each opponent with a different fist. Any subsequent blows in the Move By/Thru chain however do not get this bonus. And I'd definitely apply the off-handed penalty to the second blow...

 

One more thing: I'm not sure I'd allow this on a Move Thru for thematic reasons. At the very least I'd apply -1d6 to the KB roll.

 

RE: Stretching on Move By. Can you say, "Area Effect Clothesline"? I knew you could. However I treat it as being non-selective -- he has to make a full to-hit roll (against the character, not the hex) unless the victim is so large as to fill more than one hex.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Stretching + HTH Attack + Move By?

 

RE: HA and Move By/Thru. I'm from the school that says HA represents STR with No Figured more than EB No Range. As such I'd require a Darn Good Reason for an HA to be figured outside the halving -- ditto with Martial Damage Classes.

 

If your interpretation of HA is different? You're welcome to your opinion; I've certainly changed mine a few times on other issues. However I'd like to hear your reasoning as to why RKA and HKA have the same cost but HA and EB don't. (Tone note: I'm being serious/curious, not catty/sarcastic)

 

The book doesn't define it as limited STR and specifically says HA adds to move-by manouvres AFTER STR is divided. Of course the GM can decide differently, but thems the rules as they stand.

 

[RE: Stretching Velocity Damage. The player mentioned above has mentioned the possibility of adding Stretching to his EC -- as soon as he can justify it under the theme of "Humanoid Insect Powers"

 

Now, as I understand the logic of 'stretching velocity' it's based on the idea that your fist is moving faster as being stretched.

 

As such, I'd allow it to be added *as an outright bonus* -- for the first hit, and maybe a second hit if the character has the Two-Weapon (or Fisted) Fighting or Rapid Attack skills to represent hitting each opponent with a different fist. Any subsequent blows in the Move By/Thru chain however do not get this bonus. And I'd definitely apply the off-handed penalty to the second blow...

 

One more thing: I'm not sure I'd allow this on a Move Thru for thematic reasons. At the very least I'd apply -1d6 to the KB roll.

 

Fair enough

 

[RE: Stretching on Move By. Can you say' date=' "Area Effect Clothesline"? I knew you could. However I treat it as being non-selective -- he has to make a full to-hit roll (against the character, not the hex) unless the victim is so large as to fill more than one hex.[/quote']

 

Well, I think stretching gives you the basis for a pretty impressive sweep manoeuvre, but I'd never allow it to be used as an area effect attack: you want to do an AE attack, you'll need to pay the points (possibly in a multipower with the stretching?).

[Dust Raven]

Re: Stretching + HTH Attack + Move By?

 

One of the players in my campaign is fond of a power construct he calls "Bouncing Boy"' date=' after the Legion of Super Heroes character (DC). Basically it's built around low-to-moderate brick STR, moderate-to-high movement, and Absorption -- the character performs multiple Move By/Thru, with the "blowback" damage feeding his Absorption into Strength. The more often he hits, the harder he hits...[/quote']

Ooh, nasty. I've gotta use that someday

RE: HA and Move By/Thru. I'm from the school that says HA represents STR with No Figured more than EB No Range. As such I'd require a Darn Good Reason for an HA to be figured outside the halving -- ditto with Martial Damage Classes.

 

If your interpretation of HA is different? You're welcome to your opinion; I've certainly changed mine a few times on other issues. However I'd like to hear your reasoning as to why RKA and HKA have the same cost but HA and EB don't. (Tone note: I'm being serious/curious, not catty/sarcastic)

To me, comparing the relationship of EB and HA to RKA and HKA is like stating that lemons and limes have a thick rind, but a watermellon has a striped rind and a cantelope doesn't. I crosse compare: Is HA balanced to HKA the same way that EB is balanced to RKA. I believe they are. For one, you can use an HKA without usning STR, you can't with an HA. Of course, you can also point out that you can add all your STR to an HA, but only match the AP of a HKA. It gets a little fuzzy there.

 

I just don't think that HA should be called STR with a Limitation, if it really was, it shouldn't even be in the book, and we should just be building clubs and staves as STR with a Limitation rather than HA.