Idle Scalability Notion

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Idle Scalability Notion

 

Fair enough.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Idle Scalability Notion

 

 

 

Depends on the situation. If an innocent bystander normal gets wounded in the battle, Aiding his BODY is much more useful than Aiding the BODY of the team brick who already has 30 BODY and defenses high enough that he probably won't take any BODY damage anyway. In any event, it's still linear: #d6 x Cost per die = Total Price.

 

You didn't read the quote thoroughly. I said any power to any character, not the same power that would help a wounded normal and be of little value to an unstoppable brick.

 

In this case, the comparison is aid the body of the wounded normal compared to aiding the SPD of the unstoppable brick.

 

In one case, the value is nominal - in that the useless character continues to exist, albeit in a even less use than normal fashion. and the other case, is that a max STR, max Def, Max CV brick gets to max his SPD, too.

 

which do you think has a larger impact?

 

EXP works a lot like the bell curve. A +1 at the 3- level quadruples your chance to succeed, but it's only a 1.5% improvement or so. A +1 at the 17- level helps even less than that. (assuming that you get any improvement at all) However, a +1 if your roll was 10- adds 12.5% to your chances of success. That's 9 times the impact of the same +1 at the 3- level. (3/216 vs 27/216)

 

Similarly, if you add 5 points to a 0 point thug, it does very little at all to improve their odds of defeating an average superhero. Also, if you add 5 points to Dr Destroyer, the odds change very little if at all. However, if you add 5 points to a villain scaled to have a 50/50 chance against the hero, then the impact could be very large indeed. (assuming you don't spend the 5 points on something entirely stupid)

[Trebuchet]

Re: Idle Scalability Notion

 

In this case, the comparison is aid the body of the wounded normal compared to aiding the SPD of the unstoppable brick.

 

In one case, the value is nominal - in that the useless character continues to exist, albeit in a even less use than normal fashion. and the other case, is that a max STR, max Def, Max CV brick gets to max his SPD, too.

 

which do you think has a larger impact?

Um, saving a life, obviously.

 

I know you probably didn't mean it this way, but I would dispute that saving the life of a "useless character," even a normal, is inconsequential. Sure, if your goal is to win all your team's fights at any cost then giving more SPD to the team's brick is a good thing; a wonderful thing. But if your ultimate goal is to protect the lives of normals, despite the fact it often places your own character or teammates at risk, then the ability to patch up a mortally wounded normal is an ability without equal. This is an area where roleplaying should trump mere mechanics and tactics.

 

IMO being at risk of serious injury or even death, knowing it, and still doing the job is what makes a superhero a hero; not the flashy multicolored bolts he can fire from his hands or the fact he can fly and bounce bullets off his chest.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Idle Scalability Notion

 

You didn't read the quote thoroughly.

Yes, I did. If you meant something other than what you wrote, feel free to try again.

 

In one case, the value is nominal - in that the useless character continues to exist, albeit in a even less use than normal fashion. and the other case, is that a max STR, max Def, Max CV brick gets to max his SPD, too.

 

which do you think has a larger impact?

Hmmm... Saving a life, versus ending a fight a few segments faster...

I don't think the innocent bystander considers his life to be of "nominal" value, nor does he think of himself as "useless."

 

EXP works a lot like the bell curve.

In other words, it's not exponential. Thank you.

 

A +1 at the 3- level quadruples your chance to succeed, but it's only a 1.5% improvement or so. A +1 at the 17- level helps even less than that. (assuming that you get any improvement at all) However, a +1 if your roll was 10- adds 12.5% to your chances of success. That's 9 times the impact of the same +1 at the 3- level. (3/216 vs 27/216)

I have never, in 20+ years of playing HERO, even seen a character with a base 3- roll in anything. And I seriously doubt anyone else has either. You have also made the assumption that there aren't ever any situational modifiers or other bonuses or penatlies to the roll. A guy who buys up his 17- to an 18-, and then has to take a -5 penalty on the roll due to difficulty modifiers, is definitely getting use out of his xp. The guy who goes from 11- to 12- and then gets a "routine task" bonus of +5 isn't being helped that much, by his improved roll in that case.

 

Similarly, if you add 5 points to a 0 point thug, it does very little at all to improve their odds of defeating an average superhero. Also, if you add 5 points to Dr Destroyer, the odds change very little if at all. However, if you add 5 points to a villain scaled to have a 50/50 chance against the hero, then the impact could be very large indeed. (assuming you don't spend the 5 points on something entirely stupid)

Do 0 point thugs in your campaign think they could defeat a superhero if they only had 5 more points? They don't in mine. However, 5 points worth of Life Support may make them immune to the superhero's power, or 5 points worth of Teleportation might allow them to escape from the superhero. Even when the points are equal between two combattants, there is still enough luck in the game that 355 points is not significantly more likely to win in a fight against 350 points (1.4% difference). That's one of the great strengths of the system: little differences can have a great impact in the right circumstances, just like in real life.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Idle Scalability Notion

 

EXP works a lot like the bell curve.

In other words' date=' it's not exponential. Thank you.[/quote']

Actually, I must play devil's advocate a tiny bit here. The bell curve does look exponential at the end points. In fact the shape of the perfect normal distribution of e^(-x^2) that the 3d6 roll begins to approach approximates a*b^[x - (-n)] for some constants a and b when sufficiently close to -n, and a*b^-(x - n) when sufficiently close to +n. It is only close to zero (the mid-point, or mean) that the bell curve does not appear to be either exponentially increasing or exponentially decreasing.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Idle Scalability Notion

 

at what point does injured = dying? saving a life is great and spending xp to add body to an injured character is never an option in most games.

 

you're comparing apples to electron microscopes, this is going nowhere.

[zornwil]

Re: Idle Scalability Notion

 

at what point does injured = dying? saving a life is great and spending xp to add body to an injured character is never an option in most games.

 

you're comparing apples to electron microscopes, this is going nowhere.

Saving a life is a common option in games. I'm not sure what the issue is with spending up to add body to an injured character, but that's a basic sort of Aid, I can't see where a GM would disallow it.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Idle Scalability Notion

 

Saving a life is a common option in games. I'm not sure what the issue is with spending up to add body to an injured character' date=' but that's a basic sort of Aid, I can't see where a GM would disallow it.[/quote']It certainly doesn't require Aid or Healing to save lives. Our team's most powerful EB, Thunderbird, is also a trauma surgeon and Paramedic, and it would not be at all out of character for T'bird to stop fighting a villain to render first aid to a fallen comrade or innocent bystander. Indeed, as a doctor he would be obligated to render aid by his Hippocratic Oath.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Idle Scalability Notion

 

Actually' date=' I must play devil's advocate a tiny bit here. The bell curve [i']does[/i] look exponential at the end points. In fact the shape of the perfect normal distribution of e^(-x^2) that the 3d6 roll begins to approach approximates a*b^[x - (-n)] for some constants a and b when sufficiently close to -n, and a*b^-(x - n) when sufficiently close to +n. It is only close to zero (the mid-point, or mean) that the bell curve does not appear to be either exponentially increasing or exponentially decreasing.

 

Ok... no offense to you math-heads out there... but does anyone else see how a paragraph like this claiming to be about a ROLE PLAYING GAME would send most gamers running for the safety of d20.

 

The fact that Hero generates these kind of conversations at all, really scares me.

 

YMMV

[zornwil]

Re: Idle Scalability Notion

 

It certainly doesn't require Aid or Healing to save lives. Our team's most powerful EB' date=' Thunderbird, is also a trauma surgeon and Paramedic, and it would not be at all out of character for T'bird to stop fighting a villain to render first aid to a fallen comrade or innocent bystander. Indeed, as a doctor he would be [i']obligated[/i] to render aid by his Hippocratic Oath.

Definitely, agreed, I was just responding to that note on adding BOD and don't understand the purported issue with that.

 

I have seen many permutations on abilities that were built for life-saving or just used for that purpose.

[zornwil]

Re: Idle Scalability Notion

 

Ok... no offense to you math-heads out there... but does anyone else see how a paragraph like this claiming to be about a ROLE PLAYING GAME would send most gamers running for the safety of d20.

 

The fact that Hero generates these kind of conversations at all, really scares me.

 

YMMV

To be fair, this level of argument is really not necessary at all to players and games in general. But I understand your point.

 

Interestingly, perhaps part of HERO's enemy is 3d6 itself. Maybe we should go percentile - it definitely destroys all such complexities in odds determination.

 

As an interesting aside, damage could be based on percentile of potential damage and target's actual STUN and BOD. Could be an interesting way to avoid abusive damage...but now we're on a total tangent...

 

But to your point, RDU Neil, I really think that any true toolkit devolves to such conversations. It is the weakness and strength - if we want to influence the tookit, we do end up in such minutiae. I think that a d20 conversation could go well the same, considering you could and would discuss things such as the probabilities of a hit actually getting through after the attack roll AND the saving throw AND mitigating skills and the probabilities they are in play and all that. The difference is that the d20 audience is in many ways a different one and less likely to even be interested to do this. The HERO audience, conversely, is directly interested in this.

 

IOW, I think this is a result of the tookit versus "complete game" mentality.

 

On this point, derived HERO games could be very successful in abstracting to the point where such conversations don't occur. Of course those are no longer toolkits, but that's okay.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Idle Scalability Notion

 

Ok... no offense to you math-heads out there... but does anyone else see how a paragraph like this claiming to be about a ROLE PLAYING GAME would send most gamers running for the safety of d20.

 

The fact that Hero generates these kind of conversations at all, really scares me.

Well, it's only because Hero is so flexible and unlike any other game I am familiar with actually provides guideline for changing the rules.

 

Nobody has these kinds of discussions about some (most?) other game systems because those systems don't encourage experimentation. For myself, while I always enjoy these theoretical threads because I enjoy thinking about new approaches, but I play in a campaign that is almost totally straight as written. It's just easier to do it that way when you've got 5+ GM's.

[lemming]

Re: Idle Scalability Notion

 

Ok... no offense to you math-heads out there... but does anyone else see how a paragraph like this claiming to be about a ROLE PLAYING GAME would send most gamers running for the safety of d20.

 

The fact that Hero generates these kind of conversations at all, really scares me.

Not everyone who drives cars gets into long conversations about all the different tires, fuel, etc... that one can use to enhance performance.

 

Some people use Hero as is, others like tinkering and discussing the system. I don't see why it has to be a black box.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Idle Scalability Notion

 

Ok... no offense to you math-heads out there... but does anyone else see how a paragraph like this claiming to be about a ROLE PLAYING GAME would send most gamers running for the safety of d20.

 

The fact that Hero generates these kind of conversations at all, really scares me.

 

YMMV

While I love tinkering with the system, the roll, probabilities, physical models, etc., I agree with everyone else that it isn't necessary to play the game. One of the things I like about the Hero system is that it does a lot of this for you, so that instead of arguing for three gaming sessions about whether you can break a sword or what level spell that should be, you can just get on with roleplaying. So these boards are for us geeks that want to mess with the system, and the gaming table is for everyone who is ready to get out the dice and play!

 

Interestingly' date=' perhaps part of HERO's enemy is 3d6 itself. Maybe we should go percentile - it definitely destroys all such complexities in odds determination.[/quote']

Noooooooo!!!! Go away! I love my 3d6 curve! You are going to force me to hide under the table--clutching my d6s for dear life--aren't you?

[zornwil]

Re: Idle Scalability Notion

 

Noooooooo!!!! Go away! I love my 3d6 curve! You are going to force me to hide under the table--clutching my d6s for dear life--aren't you?

 

Yes, but only because I like the visual!

[Trebuchet]

Re: Idle Scalability Notion

 

Interestingly' date=' perhaps part of HERO's enemy is 3d6 itself. Maybe we should go percentile - it definitely destroys all such complexities in odds determination.[/quote']Actually I consider the 3d6 system to be one of Hero's greatest strengths. No other system so perfectly represents how people get really good at a skill. As you get progressively better, each improvement gets harder and harder until at the very top of the skill practitioners the increases are incremental and tiny. Target shooters and Olympic swimmers struggle to gain a .01% improvement in order to beat their opponent, because the difference between first place and second place might be less than 1/100th of a second or 1 millimeter. The 10 ring of the Olympic 10 meter air rifle target is only 0.5 millimeter across. Think about the kind of precision and steadiness it takes to hit a target smaller than a pinhead at 32 feet. Being off your game by 1% at this level means you probably won't even take third place. And that's the kind of skill you're looking at with a 17- or 18-.

[Old Man]

Re: Idle Scalability Notion

 

I AM LOSING MY MIND!!!

 

I thought this thread said:

 

"Scantily Clad Nobility"

[zornwil]

Re: Idle Scalability Notion

 

Actually I consider the 3d6 system to be one of Hero's greatest strengths. No other system so perfectly represents how people get really good at a skill. As you get progressively better' date=' each improvement gets harder and harder until at the very top of the skill practitioners the increases are incremental and tiny. Target shooters and Olympic swimmers struggle to gain a .01% improvement in order to beat their opponent, because the difference between first place and second place might be less than 1/100th of a second or 1 millimeter. The 10 ring of the Olympic 10 meter air rifle target is only [u']0.5 millimeter[/u] across. Think about the kind of precision and steadiness it takes to hit a target smaller than a pinhead at 32 feet. Being off your game by 1% at this level means you probably won't even take third place. And that's the kind of skill you're looking at with a 17- or 18-.

Sure, but you could do it with percentile dice, though I think it would be a bit more of a pain in terms of the rules, you'd need a chart. But gamers love charts!

 

I'm not personally advocating the change so much as raising the potential.

 

There's an interesting side point here - people grow to love certain dice types and constructs in games. I love the many-sided dice use in Deadlands. I like the 3d6 and many d6 damage idea in HERO. I would hate to change either, but really just out of the tactile familiarity/feel I now associate.

[zornwil]

Re: Idle Scalability Notion

 

I AM LOSING MY MIND!!!

 

I thought this thread said:

 

"Scantily Clad Nobility"

Heh, you've spending too much time with your pics! You're not going blind but your eyes are definitely affected!

[Vondy]

Re: Idle Scalability Notion

 

I AM LOSING MY MIND!!!

 

I thought this thread said:

 

"Scantily Clad Nobility"

 

I want in on this game!

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Alternatives to 3d6

 

I've been thinking about trying 3d12 instead of 3d6. Just thinking! I don't actually own any d12s. The idea is to allow for finer granularity while keeping the bell curve. The shape of the bell curve is exactly the same regardless of the type of dice used, as long as you use three of them and their all the same.

 

Every once in a while, I get annoyed that 10- is 50% and 11- is 62.5%, which is a 12.5% difference for a +1! That's a 1/8 difference.

 

With 3d12, 19- is 50%, and 20- is about 56.2%, not quite so big a leap.

 

Just a thought, I probably won't ever bother actually doing this in a game, but it does make the curve smoother, without changing its shape.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Alternatives to 3d6

 

I've been thinking about trying 3d12 instead of 3d6. Just thinking! I don't actually own any d12s. The idea is to allow for finer granularity while keeping the bell curve. The shape of the bell curve is exactly the same regardless of the type of dice used, as long as you use three of them and their all the same.

 

Every once in a while, I get annoyed that 10- is 50% and 11- is 62.5%, which is a 12.5% difference for a +1! That's a 1/8 difference.

 

With 3d12, 19- is 50%, and 20- is about 56.2%, not quite so big a leap.

 

Just a thought, I probably won't ever bother actually doing this in a game, but it does make the curve smoother, without changing its shape.

You will burn in Heck for your apostasy, you heretic.

 

Seriously, have you worked out all the probabilities for each step of the 3-36 3d12 curve? I'd be curious to see how it compared to the 3d6.

[Vondy]

Re: Alternatives to 3d6

 

You will burn in Heck for your apostasy, you heretic.

 

Seriously, have you worked out all the probabilities for each step of the 3-36 3d12 curve? I'd be curious to see how it compared to the 3d6.

 

It would be cool, but reworking and recosting the skill system would be a female dog in extreme heat.

[lemming]

Re: Alternatives to 3d6

 

You will burn in Heck for your apostasy, you heretic.

 

Seriously, have you worked out all the probabilities for each step of the 3-36 3d12 curve? I'd be curious to see how it compared to the 3d6.

Here's the list:

Roll, freq, running total, percentage

 3   1    1  0.06

 4   3    4  0.23

 5   6   10  0.58

 6  10   20  1.16

 7  15   35  2.03

 8  21   56  3.24

 9  28   84  4.86

10  36  120  6.94

11  45  165  9.55

12  55  220 12.73

13  66  286 16.55

14  78  364 21.06

15  88  452 26.16

16  96  548 31.71

17 102  650 37.62

18 106  756 43.75

19 108  864 50.00

20 108  972 56.25

21 106 1078 62.38

22 102 1180 68.29

23  96 1276 73.84

24  88 1364 78.94

25  78 1442 83.45

26  66 1508 87.27

27  55 1563 90.45

28  45 1608 93.06

29  36 1644 95.14

30  28 1672 96.76

31  21 1693 97.97

32  15 1708 98.84

33  10 1718 99.42

34   6 1724 99.77

35   3 1727 99.94

36   1 1728 100.00

And would redoing skills be a simple matter of saying skills have a base of 18+(Char/5)?

edit:Getting the percentages was easy, formating the chart, yech.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Alternatives to 3d6

 

And would redoing skills be a simple matter of saying skills have a base of 18+(Char/5)?

Interesting. To make such a system work you'd really have to rework the entire system, including combat. So a roll of 3, 4, or 5 on 3d12 would be an automatic hit or success, and a roll of 34,35, or 36 would be a miss/failure.

 

I don't think it would be worth the trouble, especially since you'd basically have to rewrite every skill and character in the books. And if 3d12 is less granular, why not use 3d20 to be even smoother? 3d100?