Multipower Charges and Durations

[Tywyll]

I was working on a Multipower concept and it got me to thinking. I want the multipower to, as a whole, be limited to X times per day. But I want some slots, once activated, to last longer than instant (which, with my understanding of charges on a multipower doesn't fly). How would I do this? At first I considered giving the slots with a longer duration Lingering, but I'm not sure if that is really the right way to do it.

 

Basically, I want something that might function like a set of spells that can be used X times per day, regardless of which ones you use, but the individual spells can have different durations (one might be a blast, but a FF might last as long as you pay END per normal) etc.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Multipower Charges and Durations

 

Hmm... I'm going to have to think about this a while longer, but a few different approaches come to the top of my head, so I'm just going to toss them out for consideration.

 

First of all, a Constant Power like a Force Field which has Charges will keep running as long as you have Charges to feed it, one Charge per Phase; so you could always just buy enough Charges for the Reserve to keep your FF (or any other Constant Power) running as long as you expect to need it. If you bought your FF with the Uncontrolled Advantage, you could feed it enough Charges to keep running even while you switch your Multipower to another slot.

 

Here's another idea: buy the whole Reserve with X number of Continuing Charges, each lasting as long as you expect to need a given Constant Power. If an Instant Power like Energy Blast doesn't have the Continuous Advantage, even if you expend a Continuing Charge on it it will still only work on that one Phase.

 

Another rules-legal construct suggested in the FAQ is to apply an Advantage based on Continuing Charges only to the cost of the slots with Constant Powers:

 

Q: If a character has Charges for a Multipower reserve, but wants to make one of the slots a Continuing Charge, how should the cost be calculated?

 

A: Subtract the value of the Charges on the reserve from the value of the same number of Continuing Charges, and apply the remainder to the slot as an Advantage.

 

Example: A Multipower has 32 Charges (+1/4) on its reserve. One slot is Darkness with Continuing Charges that last for 1 Turn. Normally, 32 Charges lasting 1 Turn each is a +3/4 Advantage. So, +3/4 - +1/4 = a +1/2 Advantage on the slot.

 

One other suggestion I'll make is to create a Custom Advantage, "X No. Of Activations Per Day", meaning that any Power in the Multipower can be turned on only so many times per day, but can otherwise be used as per normal. My suggestion would be to calculate what the Limitation or Advantage for that number of Charges would be, then what it would be for that number of Continuing Charges lasting however long you think is appropriate, then split the difference.

 

For example, if you want the Reserve as a whole to have 16 uses (+0 for Charges), and you want some of the Powers to run up to 5 minutes (4 steps down the Time Chart, for a +1 Advantage), you could make the whole Custom Advantage +1/2.

 

That's all I've got for now. I hope some of it will help you. I'll give it some more thought and get back to you.

[Tywyll]

Re: Multipower Charges and Durations

 

Thanks, Lord Liaden. Those are some good ideas. The first few don't quite "feel right" to me, but the Faq suggestion and your idea of "Activations per day" have the right feel I think I am looking for.

 

Thanks for the suggestions!

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Multipower Charges and Durations

 

I'd like to mention my other solution:

 

Charges on an END Reserve that feeds the Multipower. Then just tack on Uncotnrolled to the longer duration spells, and Increased END Cost on the other ones.

 

If you want the spells to drain personal END you could tack 'Costs END' (-1/2) on to the multipower reserve.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Multipower Charges and Durations

 

I'd like to mention my other solution:

 

Charges on an END Reserve that feeds the Multipower. Then just tack on Uncotnrolled to the longer duration spells, and Increased END Cost on the other ones.

 

If you want the spells to drain personal END you could tack 'Costs END' (-1/2) on to the multipower reserve.

 

Now that's an interesting idea!

 

It raises a potential paradox, though: Characteristics with Charges (and an END Reserve is essentially the Endurance Characteristic) are only supposed to last for the Phase in which they're used. If you pump END with one Charge into an Uncontrolled Continuous Power, would said END continue to "linger" for however many Phases it takes for the Power to use it up, or would the END "disappear" on the next Phase?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Multipower Charges and Durations

 

While I'm not too certain of it's legality or "correctness" of build, this is how I usually do something like this:

 

17 Flabbergasting Spells: Multipower, 30-point reserve, all slots 6 Charges (-3/4)

2u Beam Of Harming Others: EB 6d6, Changes (-3/4)

3u Sonorous Soaring Of Solarious: Flight 15", Continuing Charges Lasting One Minute (+0)

2u Protection Against Things That Can Hurt Me: FF 15 PD/ 15 ED, Continuing Charges Lasting One Turn Each (-1/4)

 

Basically, because Charges affect the entire Multipower, the Limitation is applied to all of the slots. Because you are allows to put different values of the same Limitation to each slot, so long as the same Limitation is applying to all of the slots, you can choose to have some of the slots have a slightly different Charges Limitation. In my example, the Flight uses continuing charges lasting 1 minute each, and the FF for 1 turn each. The EB, which is instant, uses the Limitation unmodified.

 

Now, I'm not sure about the legality of this, because HDv2 won't let me build it. It won't even give me a bonus for putting Charges on the entire thing and have it apply to the slots. I'm not sure why...

[Tywyll]

Re: Multipower Charges and Durations

 

I don't know if its legal or not, but I think I like that better than the previous ones. The more I started thinking about the earlier suggestions, the more they started bothering me. Limitations affect your final cost, but Advantages affect your Active Points. It seems odd to me that you would have to make a power cost more /before/ you could reduce its cost with the charges limitation. In something like a multipower that seems to be a really detrimental way of doing it.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Multipower Charges and Durations

 

I don't know if its legal or not' date=' but I think I like that better than the previous ones. The more I started thinking about the earlier suggestions, the more they started bothering me. Limitations affect your final cost, but Advantages affect your Active Points. It seems odd to me that you would have to make a power cost more /before/ you could reduce its cost with the charges limitation. In something like a multipower that seems to be a really detrimental way of doing it.[/quote']

 

The one advantage if my build is in having Charges Per Day (some continuing) actually costs less while being book legal. By using increased END cost it actually reduces the total cost - something other builds lack.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Multipower Charges and Durations

 

While I'm not too certain of it's legality or "correctness" of build, this is how I usually do something like this:

 

17 Flabbergasting Spells: Multipower, 30-point reserve, all slots 6 Charges (-3/4)

2u Beam Of Harming Others: EB 6d6, Changes (-3/4)

3u Sonorous Soaring Of Solarious: Flight 15", Continuing Charges Lasting One Minute (+0)

2u Protection Against Things That Can Hurt Me: FF 15 PD/ 15 ED, Continuing Charges Lasting One Turn Each (-1/4)

 

Basically, because Charges affect the entire Multipower, the Limitation is applied to all of the slots. Because you are allows to put different values of the same Limitation to each slot, so long as the same Limitation is applying to all of the slots, you can choose to have some of the slots have a slightly different Charges Limitation. In my example, the Flight uses continuing charges lasting 1 minute each, and the FF for 1 turn each. The EB, which is instant, uses the Limitation unmodified.

 

Now, I'm not sure about the legality of this, because HDv2 won't let me build it. It won't even give me a bonus for putting Charges on the entire thing and have it apply to the slots. I'm not sure why...

17 Flabbergasting Spells:Multipower, 30-point reserve, (30 Active Points); all slots 6 Charges (-3/4)

3u 1) Beam Of Harming Others 1: EB 6d6 0

2u 2) Beam Of Harming Others 2:EB 6d6; 6 Charges (-3/4) [6]

3u 3) Sonorous Soaring Of Solarious:Flight 15", 6 Continuing Charges lasting 1 Minute each (+0) (30 Active Points) [6 cc]

2u 4) Protection Against Things That Can Hurt Me:FF (15 PD/15 ED) (30 Active Points); 6 Continuing Charges lasting 1 Turn each (-1/4) [6 cc]

 

If you don't take the limitation on the individual slots (bolded) you don't get the point break but you do get the 0 End cost. I think HD works this way because you may have a charges total for the MP that is greater than the charges on any individual slot. A good example of this is the common Green Arrow/Hawkeye Bow and Arrow Multipower with 64 charges but no more that maybe 8 arrows of any one type.

 

HM

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Multipower Charges and Durations

 

Now that's an interesting idea!

 

It raises a potential paradox, though: Characteristics with Charges (and an END Reserve is essentially the Endurance Characteristic) are only supposed to last for the Phase in which they're used. If you pump END with one Charge into an Uncontrolled Continuous Power, would said END continue to "linger" for however many Phases it takes for the Power to use it up, or would the END "disappear" on the next Phase?

From the old FAQ:

 

Q: What is the effect of taking Charges on an Endurance Reserve?

 

A: Activating the Charge gives the character the defined amount of END that Phase. If he doesn’t use it all that Phase, the unused END “vanishes,†depriving him of the ability to use it (he could use another Charge next Phase to get more, of course).

 

(Since this isn't in the newest version of the FAQ, I assume it's one of those that got incorporated into 5ER. Since I don't have 5ER yet, assume is all I can do.)

 

I think a case could be made that by feeding the END into the "END Pool" for an Uncontrolled Continuous Power, you've "used" or "expended" the END, so it wouldn't just disappear. After all, if you were drawing the END from a standard END Reserve or your own personal END, you've "used" that END -- subtracted it from what you had available for future use -- even though it isn't all used up by the Power on the phase you put it into the "END Pool".

[Dust Raven]

Re: Multipower Charges and Durations

 

17 Flabbergasting Spells:Multipower, 30-point reserve, (30 Active Points); all slots 6 Charges (-3/4)

3u 1) Beam Of Harming Others 1: EB 6d6 0

2u 2) Beam Of Harming Others 2:EB 6d6; 6 Charges (-3/4) [6]

3u 3) Sonorous Soaring Of Solarious:Flight 15", 6 Continuing Charges lasting 1 Minute each (+0) (30 Active Points) [6 cc]

2u 4) Protection Against Things That Can Hurt Me:FF (15 PD/15 ED) (30 Active Points); 6 Continuing Charges lasting 1 Turn each (-1/4) [6 cc]

 

If you don't take the limitation on the individual slots (bolded) you don't get the point break but you do get the 0 End cost. I think HD works this way because you may have a charges total for the MP that is greater than the charges on any individual slot. A good example of this is the common Green Arrow/Hawkeye Bow and Arrow Multipower with 64 charges but no more that maybe 8 arrows of any one type.

 

HM

 

So putting Charges on the Multipower won't affect the cost of an individual slot, regardless of how many Charges there are total (1 or 100), because it effectively makes the slot 0 END anyway. Which would logically counter the Charges Limitation? Is that right?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Multipower Charges and Durations

 

So putting Charges on the Multipower won't affect the cost of an individual slot' date=' regardless of how many Charges there are total (1 or 100), because it effectively makes the slot 0 END anyway. Which would logically counter the Charges Limitation? Is that right?[/quote']That might be right. I am really not sure. I always assumed that you could only take a (-X) limitation on a multipower if all the slots had the same minimum (-X) limitation. This HD build with charges seems to violate at least part of that principle. I suggest checking with Dan and/or Steve. It could just be a matter of convenience for programing (like for super archers) and we are actually seeing a glitch!?

 

HM

[prestidigitator]

Re: Multipower Charges and Durations

 

That might be right. I am really not sure. I always assumed that you could only take a (-X) limitation on a multipower if all the slots had the same minimum (-X) limitation. This HD build with charges seems to violate at least part of that principle. I suggest checking with Dan and/or Steve. It could just be a matter of convenience for programing (like for super archers) and we are actually seeing a glitch!?

I don't think it is a glitch. There are special rules for Multipowers and Charges. If you take Charges on the Reserve, it means the collection of Powers in the Multipower can be used that many times per day (e.g. if you have 8 Charges on the Reserve you can use your EB 5 times and your HA 3 times; you cannot use your EB 8 times and your HA 8 times). You can instead, or in addition, take Charges on individual Slots of the Multipower to prevent that Slot from being used more than a certain number of times (but if there are Charges on the Reserve, there must be fewer Charges on a Slot than on the Reserve, obviously; otherwise it wouldn't be a further restriction).

 

Now, if the Charges on a Slot are somehow more restrictive than on the Reserve, I believe you can add the rest of the Limitaion directly to the Slot. It is possible HD doesn't do that. So I think the way I would do it is to require that the Reserve have the least restrictive value of Charges (even if that is an Advantage). Then each Slot can take Limitations. For example, the Reserve might have sixteen five-minute Continuous Charges for +1. Instants should buy off the five-minute Continuous part of it for -1. Constants that last for five minutes and aren't further restricted get no Limitation. Constants that last for one minute would get a -1/4 Limitation.

 

That just seems to fit with how you have to buy APs in the Reserve for the largest Power in the Framework.

 

BTW, you can make a Power cost End in addition to having Charges. That is spelled out under Charges (in 5E, at least) as being an additional -1/2 (I believe) Limitation on top of whatever the Charges come to.

 

EDIT: Rearranged for better clarity.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Multipower Charges and Durations

 

17 Flabbergasting Spells: Multipower, 30-point reserve, all slots 6 Charges (-3/4)

2u Beam Of Harming Others: EB 6d6, Changes (-3/4)

3u Sonorous Soaring Of Solarious: Flight 15", Continuing Charges Lasting One Minute (+0)

2u Protection Against Things That Can Hurt Me: FF 15 PD/ 15 ED, Continuing Charges Lasting One Turn Each (-1/4)

I would never allow such a build. I assume it's completely illegal, and I sure hope it is. Notice that the second slot, "Sonorous Soaring of Solarious," if purchased by itself, would cost 30 real points, while your whole "Flabbergasting Spells" MP costs only 24. The protection slot would cost 24 points by itself. As a general rule of thumb (and an absolutely ironclad one, IMO) a Multipower's total cost should be greater than the cost of any one of its slots.

 

Good spell names, though.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Multipower Charges and Durations

 

I would never allow such a build. I assume it's completely illegal' date=' and I sure hope it is. Notice that the second slot, "Sonorous Soaring of Solarious," if purchased by itself, would cost 30 real points, while your whole "Flabbergasting Spells" MP costs only 24. The protection slot would cost 24 points by itself. As a general rule of thumb (and an absolutely ironclad one, IMO) a Multipower's total cost should be greater than the cost of any one of its slots.[/quote']Good point. Maybe it IS a loophole or glitch in HD?!

 

Good spell names, though.

Yeah, that Dust Raven is a nutty one sometimes.

 

HM

[Dust Raven]

Re: Multipower Charges and Durations

 

I would never allow such a build. I assume it's completely illegal' date=' and I sure hope it is. Notice that the second slot, "Sonorous Soaring of Solarious," if purchased by itself, would cost 30 real points, while your whole "Flabbergasting Spells" MP costs only 24. The protection slot would cost 24 points by itself. As a general rule of thumb (and an absolutely ironclad one, IMO) a Multipower's total cost should be greater than the cost of any one of its slots.[/quote']

 

Excellent point. I actually think I added in the Charges Limitation incorrectly. The Continuing Charge should have been on the reserve while the more limiting ones should have been on the slots (when applicable).

Good spell names, though.

 

Thanks.