Hid Q

[Zed-F]

I have a character that can transform into a demoness. She has a secret ID disadvantage and an extreme distinctive features disadvantage when she's in HID. The power to turn into a demoness is supplied by a magical IIF artifact she carries. However, some of the powers the artifact grants (notably, characteristic bonuses) are available when she is not in demoness form, while others are only available in demoness form. It takes her a turn to change forms.

 

She has 2 relevant power sets (plus a third for some minor street-level gear.) The first is full of powers that have no visible SFX and have the limitations IIF (-1/4) and Not on Holy Ground (-1/4). The second batch also have OIHID as she can only use them while in demonic form, in addition to the IIF and Not on Holy Ground lims. I could see an argument for this being a -0 limitation on the grounds that normally one doesn't get both a focus and HID lims. However, I thought this might be a bit of a special case. I am tempted to give this the standard -1/4 limitation for OIHID since she both needs the artifact and to turn into her HID form to have access to these powers, and since she spends most of her time in her secret ID unless expecting a fight.

 

What does herodom assembled think? Should it be -0 or -1/4?

[Trebuchet]

Re: Hid Q

 

I have a character that can transform into a demoness. She has a secret ID disadvantage and an extreme distinctive features disadvantage when she's in HID. The power to turn into a demoness is supplied by a magical IIF artifact she carries. However, some of the powers the artifact grants (notably, characteristic bonuses) are available when she is not in demoness form, while others are only available in demoness form. It takes her a turn to change forms.

 

She has 2 relevant power sets (plus a third for some minor street-level gear.) The first is full of powers that have no visible SFX and have the limitations IIF (-1/4) and Not on Holy Ground (-1/4). The second batch also have OIHID as she can only use them while in demonic form, in addition to the IIF and Not on Holy Ground lims. I could see an argument for this being a -0 limitation on the grounds that normally one doesn't get both a focus and HID lims. However, I thought this might be a bit of a special case. I am tempted to give this the standard -1/4 limitation for OIHID since she both needs the artifact and to turn into her HID form to have access to these powers, and since she spends most of her time in her secret ID unless expecting a fight.

 

What does herodom assembled think? Should it be -0 or -1/4?

Since losing or destroying the crystal prevents her from assuming her demonic form, I would be inclined to grant it -1/4. OTOH, I seldom (read: never) permit both OIHID and Focus Limitations on the same Powers. Would she change forms if the crystal were Suppressed or destroyed? If the only thing the crystal does is transform her into the demoness form, then it's really a special effect of the OIHID and not a focus.

[Zed-F]

Re: Hid Q

 

It's not the only thing the focus does. Like I said, there are 2 power suites that involve the focus. The first is available whether she's in HID or not, the second is only available in HID. She can't change to or remain in HID without the focus, however.

 

If I read you right, you'd still give a total of -1/4 for both the IIF and the OIHID anyway. Correct?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Hid Q

 

My question would be, will it follow the rules for both Focus and OIHID? And how much will these overlap?

 

With Focus, it will (will) be taken away, broken, used against the character, etc.

 

With OIHID, there will (will) be times when the character is caught in normal ID and unable to use these powers, as it takes some trick or time to change.

To me it looks like they overlap quite a bit. There's not much difference between "you powers are unavailable to you because you focus was taken" and "your powers are unavailable to you because you can't change forms now". Because she needs to focus to change forms, you can replace the second statement with the first and they become the same Limitation. She can't use those powers unless she has the Focus. So basiclly she doesn't any OIHID powers, just some Powers that she can turn of an off together.

 

As for the appearance alteration... that could just be the SFX of turning on all those powers, though I might allow an Easily Concealable DF for it if it's particulary distinctive (other than "not normal"... characters don't get a DF for their costume afterall, but if she looks like a demon and everyone will point and scream "look at the demon" as opposed to "look at that hideous thing/demonic creature").

[Zed-F]

Re: Hid Q

 

With Focus, it will (will) be taken away, broken, used against the character, etc.

With OIHID, there will (will) be times when the character is caught in normal ID and unable to use these powers, as it takes some trick or time to change.

That's the intention, yes. If I wanted a character that had her powers all the time, obviously I wouldn't take limitations on them. OTOH, I find such characters boring and inefficient.

 

There's not much difference between "you powers are unavailable to you because you focus was taken" and "your powers are unavailable to you because you can't change forms now"

There's not much difference between those and "her powers aren't available because she's inside a church" either, yet I don't think anyone would dispute that's worth -1/4 on top of the focus/OIHID. The issue here as far as I understand it is whether in this particular instance the OIHID limitations (takes one turn to change forms and is not usually in HID when surprised) are sufficient to be worth -1/4 on their own, given that there are other easy ways the powers can be removed altogether. It sounds like you would drop the OIHID restrictions (i.e. make the change instantaneous) and devalue the OIHID to a -0 lim, which is certainly one valid approach.

 

I might allow an Easily Concealable DF for it if it's particulary distinctive

Her DF is easily concealable, extreme reaction -- she's obviously a demon of some sort. Regular folks don't like demons showing up at the shopping mall, and she has been attacked while in secret ID in a mall before.

[Wanderer]

Re: Hid Q

 

Or otherwise one might state that to change forms, the character has to fulfill *additional* requirements other than having the amulet around his neck/finger/arm/waist (typical sfx for a IIF), typically the equivalents of some Limitation such as Concentration, Gestures, Incantations, or Restrainable; by default, OIHID is already assumed to include Extra Time, Full Phase, and/or something like the above. Let's say the character has to stand still for a full Phase, left hand raised and/or trace an inverted pentagram in the air and/or loudly invoke "by the might of the Great Demon Chronozon". I would certainly assume both IIF and OIHID are valid, in that case. The character both has to have the focus, and perform the power-summoning action, to activate the power.

 

Only in the case that the power-summoning ritual *summons* the focus (say, vocal command that summons your power armor), then only one of them is valid.

 

E.g. a character activates powers by knocking together the two ring halves of the focus he wears on both hands and saying the magic word: in this case, IIF (or OIF) and OIHID are valid, because he has to wear the Focus on his fingers (IF), touch them together (Gesture) and say the word (Incantation): switching to HID takes more than having the focus.

[Zed-F]

Re: Hid Q

 

OIHID minimally requires a full phase to change and/or some condition which prevents the change. The IIF removal could count as a "prevent change" condition, but it takes at least a turn to remove the IIF. As such I had thought to say that the change takes a full turn to accomplish rather than a single phase. I hadn't seen her as needing to perform a kind of ritual to invoke the change; it's more of a Bruce Banner -> Hulk transformation. However it's worth considering.

 

Another thought I had was, rather than remove the OIHID, remove the IIF and change it to specify that removing the focus merely prevents her from changing out of whatever shape she's currently in as a -0 lim. If I did that I'd drop the time to change to a full phase, but it would still preventable by removing the focus. This reduces the total lim value but makes it easier to maintain a secret ID in the event of focus removal.

[Wanderer]

Re: Hid Q

 

OIHID minimally requires a full phase to change and/or some condition which prevents the change. The IIF removal could count as a "prevent change" condition' date=' but it takes at least a turn to remove the IIF. As such I had thought to say that the change takes a full turn to accomplish rather than a single phase. I hadn't seen her as needing to perform a kind of ritual to invoke the change; it's more of a Bruce Banner -> Hulk transformation. However it's worth considering.[/quote']

 

Even in that case, you can still justify OIHID either by saying the char needs to focus to activate the transformation (Concentration equivalent) or that the ritual (Gestures and/or Incantation equivalent) is a psychological, not supernatural or physiological, requirement: anime characters do it all the time. One can always assume that when the character has fully mastered her powers (i.e. bought off OIHID), she has realized has does not need psychological crutches anymore. In many cases I use Concentration, Gestures and/or Incantation, they are psychic blocks, not magical rituals.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Hid Q

 

I have a character that can transform into a demoness. She has a secret ID disadvantage and an extreme distinctive features disadvantage when she's in HID. The power to turn into a demoness is supplied by a magical IIF artifact she carries. However, some of the powers the artifact grants (notably, characteristic bonuses) are available when she is not in demoness form, while others are only available in demoness form. It takes her a turn to change forms.

 

She has 2 relevant power sets (plus a third for some minor street-level gear.) The first is full of powers that have no visible SFX and have the limitations IIF (-1/4) and Not on Holy Ground (-1/4). The second batch also have OIHID as she can only use them while in demonic form, in addition to the IIF and Not on Holy Ground lims. I could see an argument for this being a -0 limitation on the grounds that normally one doesn't get both a focus and HID lims. However, I thought this might be a bit of a special case. I am tempted to give this the standard -1/4 limitation for OIHID since she both needs the artifact and to turn into her HID form to have access to these powers, and since she spends most of her time in her secret ID unless expecting a fight.

 

Assuming she needs the IIF while in demoness form to use these powers, I would say the -1/4 Focus limitation is valid. If she can use them freely, even if the IIF is taken, once she has switched to Demoness form, I would say only OIHID is valid.

 

Given it effectively requires her a turn to activate (make available) the Demoness powers, I would say that the -1/4 OIHID is reasonable. A greater limitation would be available for Extra Time - 1 Turn - only to activate on each power, so a -1/4 limitation for "takes 1 turn to make suite of powers available" does not seem unreasonable to me.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Hid Q

 

For the Powers that are always available from the focus, including probably the Instant Change (or Cosmetic Transform ) to hero ID, I would give them the Focus.

 

For the Powers available only in demoness form, I'd give the OIHID, but not Focus (I might consider the Focus in addition if it became an Obvious Focus in this form, and/or the focus is required even when in the form, or loss of the Focus reverts the character to normal ID; not sure).

[Zed-F]

Re: Hid Q

 

Currently the way I have her written up requires both the focus and a turn to change forms, and removal of the focus would cause her to revert to her secret ID. I'm currently giving her -1/4 for the focus and -1/4 for OIHID on the relevant powerset. This may well change as a result of thinking about how I really want this to work, in part due to the responses I've seen here. She is understandably paranoid about her secret ID being linked to her heroic ID and is quite secretive in general, so it might be better to remove the focus lim on the obviously demonic power set and just keep OIHID, so she doesn't revert if the focus is taken (though she will be stuck in whatever form she's currently in.)

[prestidigitator]

Re: Hid Q

 

She is understandably paranoid about her secret ID being linked to her heroic ID and is quite secretive in general' date=' so it might be better to remove the focus lim on the obviously demonic power set and just keep OIHID, so she doesn't revert if the focus is taken (though she will be stuck in whatever form she's currently in.)[/quote']

In that case, will she still be able to use her Powers in demonic form, after having lost the Focus? It sounds like it. In that case I would give the Powers OIHID, but not Focus. Your Instant-Change-like Power should take the Focus. Sounds like a neat character by the way. Have fun with her!

[Sean Waters]

Re: Hid Q

 

Depending on the campaign, I'd be more worried about the -1/4 not on Holy Ground limitation. Sounds like it could be better built with a disadvantage 'accidental change to unenhanced human form on holy ground'. I'd be surprised if the character found themselves on Holy Ground enough to justify a limitation and enemies can't exactly bring Holy Ground to the character. Depends how much it'll come up though...the main villain might have a base ON Holy Ground, in which case, I'd say 'go for it'!

 

As for the rest, I'd let you do it. IIF - can't use powers if artefact stolen. OIHID - can't use powers if can't fulfill the activation criteria (although I tend to make activation criteria rather more impressive than the book suggests if you're getting a -1/4 out of me!

 

I'd just say this: expect to be without the second batch of powers a reasonably significant amount: you've made it a -1/2 limitation.

 

HA! Interesting aside (just be glad I'm not your GM!) - a villain who is a fanatical priest type who has an area effect transform -'Consecrate Area'. Now that could be funny...

[Wanderer]

Re: Hid Q

 

Depending on the campaign' date=' I'd be more worried about the -1/4 not on Holy Ground limitation. Sounds like it could be better built with a disadvantage 'accidental change to unenhanced human form on holy ground'. I'd be surprised if the character found themselves on Holy Ground enough to justify a limitation and enemies can't exactly bring Holy Ground to the character. Depends how much it'll come up though...the main villain might have a base ON Holy Ground, in which case, I'd say 'go for it'![/quote']

 

Aha. Actually this is one of the easiest Conditional Limitations to invoke: there's plenty of holy ground locations both in urban (churches, cimiteries) and rural (native and pagan holy sites) environments for the villain to flee or being located into, the gimmick or contact to be hidden, or the meeting to take place. If the GM isn't able to find justification to invoke it at least every third session, shame on him. Do you remember Highlander TV series ?

 

HA! Interesting aside (just be glad I'm not your GM!) - a villain who is a fanatical priest type who has an area effect transform -'Consecrate Area'. Now that could be funny...

 

That could also be a Change Environment. Or even better (that could be an excellent idea for a Hunted to your character) an modern Inquisition-like secret society of witch-hunters and exorcists which has targeted your character as an impure creature and keeps sending agents to dispatch her. I guess your PC also has some Susceptibilities and/or Vulnerabilities to holy stuff, hasn't it

 

And for some angst, why not the fundamentalist love interest

[Sean Waters]

Re: Hid Q

 

Aha. Actually this is one of the easiest Conditional Limitations to invoke: there's plenty of holy ground locations both in urban (churches, cimiteries) and rural (native and pagan holy sites) environments for the villain to flee or being located into, the gimmick or contact to be hidden, or the meeting to take place. If the GM isn't able to find justification to invoke it at least every third session, shame on him. Do you remember Highlander TV series ?

 

 

 

...then of course you have to define 'Holy' - what faith, denomination, belief system. Demons are found in all sorts of religions and beliefs.

 

I agree with you: you can always find a Holy Site if you want BUT if this is one of several different characters it is going to wind up dominating the campaign tone if you are not careful. Tucking it away as a disadvantage will be fewer points and far less imperative for the poor old GM to set this week's episode in yet another forgotten burial ground...

 

If the campaign is set around demons and angels and the supernatural, then the limitation is very appropriate.

[Wanderer]

Re: Hid Q

 

...then of course you have to define 'Holy' - what faith' date=' denomination, belief system. Demons are found in all sorts of religions and beliefs. [/quote']

 

If I were the GM, the obvious answer is "all of them": christian, buddhist, hinduist, shinto, asatru, animistic. No RL religion loves demons/evil spirits.

 

 

I agree with you: you can always find a Holy Site if you want BUT if this is one of several different characters it is going to wind up dominating the campaign tone if you are not careful. Tucking it away as a disadvantage will be fewer points and far less imperative for the poor old GM to set this week's episode in yet another forgotten burial ground...

 

This is of course a delicate matter of balance and trust between GM, player and the other players, and one that surfaces with all Limited Power Constructs (as well as several other Limitations, like Focus, OIHID, Extra Time, Concentration, Gestures, Incantations...). However, Conditional Power also allows for many interesting power and character concepts that maybe wouldn't otherwise possible or far duller, above and beyond what Dependencies, Susceptibilities and Vulnerabilities allow: how do you make a Superman concept viable without a couple kryptonite/red sun/magic liabilities ?? Moreover, I believe that the effort to partially structure a whole character concept around one or two power limitation (or at least to allow the GM with a ready-made recurrent plot hook) should be rewarded with a substantial point discount.

 

As a aside note, I find undeserved the knee-jerk "make it a disadvantage" criticism every such character seems to get, be it Focus, OIHID, or "Not In" Conditional Power. Not to rant against anyone, mind, just I'm somewhat annoyed by the periodic threads that crop up to rant post after post against Focus or OIHID like it were the spawn of evil.

[Zed-F]

Re: Hid Q

 

The character in question is currently playing in a solo game, so no worries about stuff coming up all the time. Besides, at -1/4, it shouldn't be coming up all that often.

 

I have a NPC team under construction that she's potentially part of, but the whole team has mystical origins and/or powers (something like the New Circle, but lower-powered and not tribute characters.) So, having holy stuff crop up regularily shouldn't be a particular problem for the team in general.

 

In fact, the character is a semi-posessed mortal, so while her powers don't work on holy ground, and powers that are bought "only vs. demons" would affect her, she doesn't inherently take extra damage from holy effects. She's already used her disad points for other relevant disads anyway.

[Zed-F]

Re: Hid Q

 

Your Instant-Change-like Power should take the Focus.

She doesn't actually have instant change; her clothes don't change when she does. She goes with a Bruce Banner look...