Summon to simulate seeking projectiles

[Beastial]

Someone recently posted a question about some official power where Hero Games had used summon to replicate a Darkseid-esque tracking projectile that could be outrun.

 

This got me to thinking, and subsequently to scribbling away in my little Hero notebook. The result seems disproportionately powerful, with only a couple drawbacks:

 

Summon: 50pt missile, x16, 
 +1 Slavish loyalty (willing to destroy self, and it certainly will)  60 active points 
 (10 for 1 missile, + 20 for 4 doublings = 30, at +1)

1    STR    -9
1    DEX    -27
1    CON    -18
1    BOD    -18
1    INT     -9
1    EGO    -18
NA   PRE     NA (automaton)
NA   COM    NA (ditto)
0    PD      0
0    ED      0
0    REC    0
5    STU    0
18   END    8

Running: 0"  -12
Swimming: 0" -2

For a grand total of 103 points worth of sold-back characteristics.

That, plus the 50 points in the summon itself leaves us with 153 points to play with.

Rocket EC, 30 active, 15 real
   -1  1 charge, lasts 1 minute
    -1/4 costs END to start
**+10 SPD
   +1/4 trigger (when summoned)       125 active, 42 real
   -1 1/4 (1 charge 1 minute, END to start)
**30" flight, 60 active, 11 real
   -1/4, must fly at max speed directly at target
   -1/4 double turn mode
   -1 1/4 (1 charge, 1 minute, END to start)

Warhead:  2d6 RKA, +1 1/2 Penetrating x 3   90 active, 22 real
  +1/2 1 hex AoE
  -2 1 charge
  -2 Extreme side effect, always (death) 
      Throw in a -0 that the side effect will go off on impact with anything

Shrinking 2 levels, always on, intrinsic:  50 active, 34 real.

That's 136 so far.

Throw in:
Teamwork 15-    17 points


Disadvantages:
It's a freakin missile.  It can't bend, talk, smell, think, etc.  You figure it out.

 

Okay, so what are the consequences of building an attack like this?

 

1) The missiles aren't too bright. They go that way real fast, and that's about it. They won't pursue anyone around a corner, they'd just plow into whatever obsticle was in the way and expire.

2) The missiles have to sit in the tubes for a segment or two until they wake up and take off. When they do, they burn through all their endurance (that's why I bought it).

3) They're extremely fragile. Any attack will destroy one.

4) The basic rules define 1 phase of combat as 1 'task'. Slaving loyalty grants 1 task per ego of the summoner. At an 11 speed, those tasks are going to be used up in a big hurry... far earlier than the '1 minute' on their lifespan. Ego bought "only to increase # of tasks" sounds like at least a -1 limitation.

5) But there's a whole bunch of them. Any non-AoE attack isn't going to be very effective at stopping them en mass... but a spread EB just might get them all.

6) They take at most 3 segments to get moving, and usually only 2. Their enhanced speed comes on line the moment they are summoned, so their 'next phase' comes up pretty quickly. The longest summon->launch delay happens when they are summoned on phase 12... they orient on segment 2, and start moving on segment 3. Given their sorry DEX, that gives targets with a SPD of >=4 one action to do something about the missiles (destroy them or take cover) before they start moving. On any other segment, they start moving in 2 segments instead of 3.

7) 16x 2d6 killing attacks with penetrating against all but the most paranoid of defenses is going to do at least 32 body to their target. Ouchy. It's also really hard to dive for cover 16 times in one segment (though one could easily argue that any group using a coordinated AoE would all go off at the same time, in the same spot).

 

This basic framework could be used to deliver any number of different 90-active warheads... prefferably the kind that stacks well together: Penetrating attacks, drains with lots of extra max effect, etc. A penetrating regular attack with that teamwork roll could easily stun just about any target... at 6 stun per missile, that's 64 stun. It's quite likely that they'll all make their teamwork roll, giving their target 16 melee attackers all performing a move-through. That takes just about anyone without defensive manuver II down to 1/2 DCV. Throw in the +4 CV from their shrinking, and their target is gonna soak up a healthy dose of pain.

 

"healthy... pain".

 

Alternatively, the warheads could go for straight damage with a 90 active, advantageless attack... 6d6HKA or 18d6 HA, and ditch the teamwork in favor of skill levels with move-through. Throw in some extra DCs for their velocity, and you're looking at a heapin' helpin' o grief.

 

The summon itself doesn't define how their targets are designated. If a character had mind link, x16 subjects, he could arguably designate different targets for different missiles.

 

I personnaly would want to stuff all this into a multipower... something like

Missile Launcher Multi, 62 active, 41 real
 -1/2 OIF  Launch tubes
**Summon 50pt missile x 16 [16 charges] 60 active, 4 fixed
**Summon 50pt missile x 16 [16 charges] 60 active, 4 fixed
   (different warhead)
**Summon 50pt missile x8 [8 charges] 62 active, 4 fixed
   +1/4 expanded class (various kinds of missiles)
**Summon 50pt missile x4 [unlimited]   55 active, 3 fixed
   +1/2 0 END
   +1/4 expanded class
**Summon 300pt missile x1 [2 charges] 60 active, 2 fixed

+50 Ego, 
 -1 only for summon tasks, 
 -1/2 OIF fire control system 
 100 active, 40 real
Mind Link, x16, summoned missiles (predefined group)
 -1/2 OIF fire control system
 30 active, 20 real

Total cost: 118pts

 

That multipower can give someone a Really Huge (if somewhat slow-starting) amount of firepower.

 

I briefly considered making the side effect an AoE-type attack... but that would actually inflict more damage on the target, and sounded like more of an advantage than a drawback. On the other hand, you don't get to utterly destroy the launcher when they pop open the tubes and you zot one of the missiles, which chain-reacts into all the other missiles, doing repeated AoE damage to the launcher and anyone nearby. Stuffing the launcher-bearer face-first into the ground or wrapping a bus around their face right after the tubes open also lacks the satisfying self-vaporizing explosions. Se lave.

 

 

 

 

The other way to go about this same sort of thing would be to buy it as an EB/RKA with an activation time, a "physical manifestation", and perhaps reduced penetration (lots of small missiles) and autofire (LOTS of small missiles). That really can't capture the whole "running away from the missiles" thing though... where the target is pushing their NCM movement in an effort to get away from the Anime-esque cloud of missiles on their tail.

 

Yes, I would like to strap all this to a vehicle, "extra limbs", running, maybe a little leaping... high DEF, and an AC20! Err... EB! I meant energy blast! What?! Fasa doesn't even exist any more, they're not going to sue anyone.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Summon to simulate seeking projectiles

 

Congratulations! You've apparently developed independently the method by which most published HERO Fifth Edition products build homing missiles that track their target.

 

There are lots of examples of these constructed for the Ultimate Vehicle and HERO System Vehicle Sourcebook, as well as the Star HERO line and a few other books. Most of those books build the missiles as Vehicles rather than Automatons, but acknowledge that Automaton is a perfectly valid alternative.

 

Other than that, though, I don't want to reveal more details of the differences here since they're part of Hero Games's IP. Sorry.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Summon to simulate seeking projectiles

 

Yes.

 

Right.

 

Couple of things:

 

1. I wouldn't allow a -2 side effects/death on something that was only ever going to 'live' for a turn in any event. Maybe SOMETHING for side effects but probably not - it's own damage would kill it without the side effect.

 

2. I (and this will probably spark 'discussion' think that the use of an EC is inappropriate. I mean, if you summoned an animal, you wouldn't stick all of its abilities in an 'Animal EC'. I am not keen on ECs anyway, but this does aeem like a reasonbly clear abuse to me...

 

3. If you use the missile launcher then you are sticking an EC in a multipower, quite deliberately, which is a no-no: no frameworks in frameworks.

 

4. As you say: there are disadvantages: I make the DCV to be 4...

 

5. Buying down your SPD then buying it back up in an EC is just so abusive that I can't even begin to express myself over it.

 

6. Having '1 charge' powers for summoned creatures - ditto. It is not a real limitation as the thing is only going to last a turn in any event, at most, and you can then summon more with new charges.

 

I could go on, but, in summary: I'd have some issued with this build...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Summon to simulate seeking projectiles

 

Congratulations! You've apparently developed independently the method by which most published HERO Fifth Edition products build homing missiles that track their target.

 

There are lots of examples of these constructed for the Ultimate Vehicle and HERO System Vehicle Sourcebook, as well as the Star HERO line and a few other books. Most of those books build the missiles as Vehicles rather than Automatons, but acknowledge that Automaton is a perfectly valid alternative.

 

Other than that, though, I don't want to reveal more details of the differences here since they're part of Hero Games's IP. Sorry.

 

If this kind of construction is HERO approved, then I'm going back to DnD.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Summon to simulate seeking projectiles

 

Someone recently posted a question about some official power where Hero Games had used summon to replicate a Darkseid-esque tracking projectile that could be outrun.

 

..oh, and welcome to the boards

[Dust Raven]

Re: Summon to simulate seeking projectiles

 

I've always liked the idea of using Summon for missle-like attacks. With the exception of the obvious drawback you mention, they work perfectly.

 

There are other ways of course, but to simulate the maneuvering we see in various films the missiles need to be their own character/vehicle or whatever. Have their own stats and take actions like any character would. I just wish there was an Instand Change equivilant for Summon like there is for other similar powers that allowed the summoned creatures to arrive at full CV and act on their first Phase.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Summon to simulate seeking projectiles

 

If this kind of construction is HERO approved' date=' then I'm going back to DnD. [/quote']

 

Blasphemer!

[Sean Waters]

Re: Summon to simulate seeking projectiles

 

Don't get me wrong: I agree that a summoned vehicle is probably the way to go here: afterall there's all kinds of limitations in the summon power. My argument is less with the concept than they build. I can build ludicrously dangerous attacks for fewer real points, we probably all can, so it isn't inherently abusive from that POV: as with any power you need to evaluate it in application. If the missile summoning dude wipes the floor with everything, then the power is too good.

 

The construction does lead to a couple of interesting observations though. I don't agree that targets will be 1/2 DCV as there are a lot of missiles, and whilst there will be SOME OCV bonus from teamwork, the base OCV is 0, you don't get OCV from shrinking and they may have a job hitting anything.

 

Tactically the answer would be for a high-BODY character/appropriate defence character to get targetted while holding an action then run over to the missile launching character and do a grab through while the missiles are orienting: target and attacker are in the same hex and both take the damage...

 

Aside, I like to see vehicels like this built with (at least) rudimentary AI if there is going to be in-flight control (via the mind link) which then allows cyberkinetics to hack in, but that is just a personal thing...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Summon to simulate seeking projectiles

 

Look, I'm sorry to keep going on about this, but I can't help myself...

 

The rocket is built as an automaton NOT a vehicle but no points have been spent on making it so.

 

I don't think automatons automatically have no PRE or COM, but I don't have the book so you may be right. Even if that was their only automaton power you'd still have to pay something for it though...

 

Having looked at it again, an automaton (as opposed to a vehicle) has certain real problems: to whit, it is going to be vulnerable to stealth rolls: try to hide and it has such a poor PER roll it will probably never find you. Persuasion attempts: if you can speak it's language you could confuse it with a persuasion (or for the whole lot of them, maybe oratory) roll. Again, it is stupid, and a well worded comment could send them off against another target, possibly even the attacker (he can get round it with the mind link in the launcher, but it'll take a phase, probably...)

 

Personally I would build a homing missile as a vehicle driven by an AI. It makes more sense to do it that way to me and it gets round the silly possibilities of using character interaction skills to misdirect homing missiles (Acting: Nay, sweet Missile, I am not The Crimson Claw, sworn enemy of The Homer, I am a Prince of Denmark...)

 

Anyway, I think I'm going to stop going on about this now.

[Beastial]

Re: Summon to simulate seeking projectiles

 

A: As I (very) briefly mentioned, someone commented on a seeking projectile as a summon in official Hero IP, and I went off to build one on my own to see how it turned out. I don't get any credit for independant creation (at least not for this).

 

B: Yes, the EC with slots that have "costs END to start" was something I posted in the "favorite abuses" thread. On the other hand, I believe that charges that also cost END is a bigger limitation than -1/4, though the "only to start" may well bring it back down to that. I initially figured that the two would pretty much cancel each other out, and didn't dig any further. In doing the digging now, I'm not finding any such thing... this would make the missile cost an extra 15 points. (which could be paid for by dropping some SPD and flight).

 

C: One could easily argue that putting the summon inside a multi places no restrictions on what is summoned. They're seperate characters, so I'd strongly argue they really shouldn't have any constraints on them based soley on where the sommon was stashed on their character sheet. But on the other hand, this is a pretty fishy EC to start with.

 

D: One of the disad's I glossed over (in addition to the passing reference to can't talk) was a "can't hear/feel/smell/touch" thing. They can only see. I also considered buying them Radar and IR vision to better simulate a missile with image recognition/heat seeking/radar (like a sidewinder). No acting/persuasion, but the "stealth" option is still very much present, environment permitting.

 

E: The "1 minute charge" is a limit on its range and tracking time. If someone (in the air for example) with nothing to hide behind managed to avoid them (perhaps by staying inside their turn radius), they'd still have to wait out their 1-minute fuel supply... The description of Summon also mentions that a GM might change the definition of how long a "task" lasts if they felt it appropriate. If that GM decided to let a missile last until it was destroyed, one could then drop the extra EGO built into the fire control system, and the 1-minute lifespan becomes a real issue (at least for shooting at things that were Far Away).

 

F: Given that the different summons are technically different (but very similar) powers, I wonder if the "max of X beings at a time" might carry over across the different slots in the multipower. It could be argued either way.

 

G: A 1-hex HA (which I admit isn't how I wrote up the above attack) can hit an adjacent hex, so the missile isn't necessarily destroyed by it's own power... though I admit the -1/2-level side effect would be enough to destroy it if it did body. 2d6 HKA would do a minimum of the 2 body necessary to destroy the missile.

 

Whoops. I actually wrote it up as an RKA without taking the "no range" limitation. My bad. That actually saves 10 points (IIRC). I had initially planned on using a melee attack of some sort, to let the extra velocity DC from a move-through add to the warhead.

 

H: Upon having another gander at the automaton rules (p457 of 5ER), I see that they don't have EGO and are immune to all mental powers, but still have INT & PRE (but are immune to PRE attacks). That inflicts an 8-point penalty on the missile as written up above. I was actually going for something that could be controlled with a machine-class mind control, so maybe Automatons aren't the way to go.

 

I: I didn't "sell back" any SPD. I sold back the DEX, which is quite useful on its own. But missing a little detail or two on that character is understandable when you can only look at part of it in the "code" window.

 

J: If one were to drop the -1/4 "Only at target/max speed" limitation on the flight, the mind link in the fire control system should allow the summoner to control the missile's flight with much greater precision... particularly if the fire control system tacked on a clairsentience with the -1 1/2 "linked to mind link, only through linked senses". 8 points for a basic sight-group clairsentience. This would force the summoner to designate a "lead missile" that the others were all following, unless they bought "multiple perception points"... at which point they'd probably want "rapid" for their sense group so they could actually make use of all the info headed there way.

 

K: The basic summon with the multipower provided could also use 25pt missiles x32, 75 x 8, 100 x 4, 150 x 2, or 150 x 1... WHOOPS. I messed up one of the the multipower slots quite a bit. The last slot should be a 150pt missile, not a 300pt one. BIG difference.

 

L: Buying mind link for the missiles would let you tack another -1 onto the fire control's mind link, and would only cost the missiles 2 points. The saved points from the fire control system could be tacked onto the summon multi to make up the difference of all the flaws listed here. Making the summon powers themselves 11point (55pt critters)x 16 is possible with the multipower as given for the primary slots.

 

M: All this is assuming a >= 90pt active cap on powers in the campaign (the warhead is 90 active). A lower-end campaign (60 active for example) would have to make some adjustments... the listed RKA would become a 1d6+2 for example, which reduces the "penetrating" effectiveness by half.

 

N: This is getting silly. G'day.

[Beastial]

Re: Summon to simulate seeking projectiles

 

I just wish there was an Instand Change equivilant for Summon like there is for other similar powers that allowed the summoned creatures to arrive at full CV and act on their first Phase.

 

The missile I proposed started to work around that. You could buy it 12 speed with 1 charge lasting 1 segment... -2. 30 points instead of 120. Meh. That's still pretty expensive, but I can't think of any other limitations you could legitimately pile onto that speed to make it cheaper. "Only to overcome summon disorientation" isn't much of a limitation when it's only going to last long enough to get you over that anyway. You'd also have to put that SPD on a trigger (150 active, 50 real. Ouch!), as I did, or it wouldn't activate until the summoned Thing got it's first action.

 

I suppose you could put the SPD in a multi, and put the trigger on the multi... that way you'd still be able to use those pool points for something useful after the Thing was summoned and awoke... but that's still an awfully big multi (120 pool points with a trigger advantage). Hmmm... doesn't putting something on a trigger make it useless without that trigger? Gah. Maybe a second "on impact" trigger for the second slot (the warhead). That bears further research and I REALLY need to get to work.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Summon to simulate seeking projectiles

 

I'm not going to answer all of that, but real kudos for writing it! I acknowledge your corrections of (some of) my misconceptions.

 

Here's another one for you. Hear what you say about not buying back speed - you are quite right - but still feel very bad about the idea of the speed having a charge for a summoned creature. Anyway,never mind that now...

 

When the beasty is summoned it has a SPD of 1.

 

It then burns END and increases that SPD to 11.

 

SPD change rules say that you can't change SPD until the next time you have a shared phase, which in this case will be phase 7.

 

Depending when the thing is summoned it may have to sit 'in the tubes' for more than a turn...

[Kristopher]

Re: Summon to simulate seeking projectiles

 

Something to keep in mind...most "homing" weapons don't actually make multiple attempts to hit their target.

[austenandrews]

Re: Summon to simulate seeking projectiles

 

This thread demonstrates the reason I don't like Summon for this kind of thing. It's just too big and clunky. Forget for the moment the silliness of having to buy an Advantage called "Slavishly Loyal" for a missile. When you're forced to address issues like building AIs and structuring power frameworks and buying back Running, you've just excluded everyone but serious Hero geeks from ever buying a missile-like attack. Which is absurd.

 

The other way to go about this same sort of thing would be to buy it as an EB/RKA with an activation time, a "physical manifestation", and perhaps reduced penetration (lots of small missiles) and autofire (LOTS of small missiles).

The way I see it, you could build a missile as easily as NND with a defense "Can be outrun" or a Trigger defined as "Hit by missile." Slap a few stats on the missile (which doesn't itself need to purchased with character points) add Focus or Physical Manifestation or what-have-you, and you're good to go.

 

As a GM I prefer a "custom" Advantage/Limitation, but I think there should be a standard one.

 

That really can't capture the whole "running away from the missiles" thing though... where the target is pushing their NCM movement in an effort to get away from the Anime-esque cloud of missiles on their tail.

Why not? Just give the missile a velocity.

[Victim]

Re: Summon to simulate seeking projectiles

 

Generally, you wouldn't write up a normal missile so abusively. It probably should have some STR based on its size like most vehicles. A normal missile would have much higher Dex (a jet fighter is like Dex 23, IIRC, so air to air stuff would have higher than that). I'm not sure why the missile is made out of cardboard either (1 Body). Since the only way the missile can move is with flight, putting charges/END on both is kind of overkill.

[TheEmerged]

Re: Summon to simulate seeking projectiles

 

I built a whole series of powers using this basic construct for MasterMime. He basically uses this construct to simulate his ability to create "Invisible (whatever)" for his attack powers -- like the invisible dog to carry people away, the invisible hawk to do the same to fliers, invisible snakes to tie opponents up...

 

Sometimes you can do some darn-near abusive things with this construct -- the "invisible snakes" power in particular comes dangerously close to overpowering Entangle for similar costs.

 

If you use this construct, you have to make sure you're putting the appropriate advantages on the Summon. If your "invisible snake" can only do one thing, it should take the +1 since it is effectively "slavishly loyal" -- it does exactly one thing. You also have to make sure the summoned construct has the appropriate powers and defenses; if it can't be stunned it should take that power and the resulting increase to DEF costs.

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Summon to simulate seeking projectiles

 

Something to keep in mind...most "homing" weapons don't actually make multiple attempts to hit their target.

 

In comics, they often do.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Summon to simulate seeking projectiles

 

A: As I (very) briefly mentioned' date=' someone commented on a seeking projectile as a summon in official Hero IP, and I went off to build one on my own to see how it turned out. I don't get any credit for independant creation (at least not for this).[/quote']

 

Sure you did, Lord Liaden said "Congratulations!" to you, first work in his post actually. I don't believe he was being sarcastic. He could have been though, as he was smiling while he said it.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Summon to simulate seeking projectiles

 

Look, I'm sorry to keep going on about this, but I can't help myself...

 

The rocket is built as an automaton NOT a vehicle but no points have been spent on making it so.

 

I don't think automatons automatically have no PRE or COM, but I don't have the book so you may be right. Even if that was their only automaton power you'd still have to pay something for it though...

 

Having looked at it again, an automaton (as opposed to a vehicle) has certain real problems: to whit, it is going to be vulnerable to stealth rolls: try to hide and it has such a poor PER roll it will probably never find you. Persuasion attempts: if you can speak it's language you could confuse it with a persuasion (or for the whole lot of them, maybe oratory) roll. Again, it is stupid, and a well worded comment could send them off against another target, possibly even the attacker (he can get round it with the mind link in the launcher, but it'll take a phase, probably...)

 

Personally I would build a homing missile as a vehicle driven by an AI. It makes more sense to do it that way to me and it gets round the silly possibilities of using character interaction skills to misdirect homing missiles (Acting: Nay, sweet Missile, I am not The Crimson Claw, sworn enemy of The Homer, I am a Prince of Denmark...)

 

Anyway, I think I'm going to stop going on about this now.

 

Automatons are not always going to be influenced by Interaction Skills. Sure, you might be able to use Acting to convince the automaton you aren't you, but if the automaton is programmed not to care who you are and kill you anyway...

 

That and little things like Persuasion and Conversation and such shouldn't have any affect on an automaton. They have nothing with which to react with. I suppose you could program one to be influenced by such things, but that sounds like an exception rather than the standard.

[Kristopher]

Re: Summon to simulate seeking projectiles

 

Something to keep in mind...most "homing" weapons don't actually make multiple attempts to hit their target.

 

In comics' date=' they often do.[/quote']

 

And?

 

Real missiles don't make multiple passes. It irks me when people describe weapons that do make multiple passes as "missile-like", when the only reason anyone believes that nonsense is because of pure, silly Hollywood tripe.

[TheEmerged]

Re: Summon to simulate seeking projectiles

 

Real missiles don't make multiple passes. It irks me when people describe weapons that do make multiple passes as "missile-like", when the only reason anyone believes that nonsense is because of pure, silly Hollywood tripe.

 

Of course, this is HERO so you're going to have people wanting to do both

[Andrew Cermak]

Re: Summon to simulate seeking projectiles

 

And?

 

And people like to use superhero RPGs to simulate things they see in comics.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Summon to simulate seeking projectiles

 

And?

 

Real missiles don't make multiple passes. It irks me when people describe weapons that do make multiple passes as "missile-like", when the only reason anyone believes that nonsense is because of pure, silly Hollywood tripe.

 

Carefull, or someone will take Knockback...