Entangles

[Menexenus]

I'm sure this is a subject that has probably been rehashed again and again on these boards, but please indulge a newbie's stupid questions. :-)

 

My GM just threw an agent team at us which included a guy with an entangle gun. That one guy had the good guys all messed up for most of the combat. Only after we eliminated him were we able to get the upper-hand.

 

The trouble we had started me thinking. Isn't Entangle somewhat over-powered in this system? If you give a squad of agents entangle guns (OAF, area effect, takes no damage), with a little bit of offensive support, couldn't they take down virtually any team of heroes?

 

Maybe the problem is that out of a group of 4 characters, only one is able to fly and only one has a strength above 20. Still, entangles seem to be a real pain-in-the-butt in this system. Does anyone else have the same concerns about them that I do?

 

On a more practical note, can you give me some advice about how to deal with entangles in the future. After the success that our GM had with the entangle gun today, he is sure to use it against us again in the future. I have a martial artist character with a 20 strength. What would be the best way for me to counter the threat posed by goons with entangle guns?

 

Thanks in advance.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Entangles

 

Martial Escape will work against some entangles. Dive for Cover evades area effect attacks. OAF? Superior speed plus Martial Disarm should take care of that quite effectively.

 

Overall, remember it's not just STR that can break an entangle. An Energy Blast or killing attack works fine as well. Unless the power is Restrainable, requires Gestures or is in a Focus, the Entangle doesn't prevent use of other offensive powers to break out.

[gojira]

Re: Entangles

 

Well, not having enough strength to break entangles is an issue. That's your primary "defense" against entangles. On the other hand, the AE is an issue too, that's not usual for a goon level attack.

 

First thing is to talk to the GM and other players about what's fun and what's not. The GM can *always* find a way to shut the players down if he wants to, so it's really up to him. Maybe he felt like you needed a challenge. But some types of players don't like being challenged by lesser foes, so that's I think the first thing to talk about.

 

Note that I like competent agents. It's normal for a lot of (maybe older now) comics to be primarily about fighting agents, and the character being challenged by it, although not seriously. I was re-reading some of my comics just last night, and Jubilee, Wolverine, and Psylocke spent the whole issue just fighting the Hand (ninja clan agents) while they tried to figure out what the real villians were up too.

 

The other issue is that AE. That's an attack that specifically designed to allow a low skill agent to hit a high(er) skill hero. I'm more used to agents with non-AE attacks, which allows heroes to dodge those attacks and avoid the entangle. Still, this may be a lesson from your GM. "Watch out. You guys are vulnerable to AE and entagles. A super villian with those powers will mess you up."

 

The other possibility is that the players messed up somehow. Maybe you should have scouted ahead, made a Detective skill role, or checked with your contacts. Maybe you should have spotted that big nasty entagle gun guarding the front door, and made a stealthy entrance in the back door instead. Full frontal assualts aren't always good.

 

 

Ok, so that's the first issue, GM and campaign flavor. Next up, tactics.

 

If you can Dive for Cover outside the AE of the entangle, that'll keep you from being hit. Buy up some movement so that you can get outside the AE with your Dive. Jumping in particular is a good MA movement power.

 

Second, sneaky MA or wade-in-fighting MA? If sneaky, hide. You can't be entangled if you aren't seen. Then, attack with suprise and...

 

GRAB! Get that OAF. Movement (to get you to the goon) and a high DEX is just what you need. A good MA should be king here. You don't have to beat him, just take his stuff. What movement powers does the group have?

 

And lastly, strength obviously. If the GM will let a couple of characters ret-con themselves with higher strength, that might be ok if some players are willing to shift points around. Otherwise, you'll have to buy new powes that seem in character to deal with entangles and AE powers in general.

 

That's all I can think of right now! TTFN!

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Entangles

 

It depends on how many active points the Entangle has overall, as much as the Area of Effect, Takes No Damage combo.

 

For the sake of this argument, I'm going to assume two things:

1. The campaign has a typical DC/Active point cap of 12/60, respectively.

2. The Area of Effect in question is 1 Hex, rather than another option.

3. I'm going to largely be referring to average/typical rolls, instead of dealing with the outside chances ("9 ones on 12 dice? Sucks to be you, Bob.")

 

The Entangle Guns in question will be 3d6, 3 DEF Entangles, meaning that, on average, a typical 6 DC attack (30 STR, 6d6 EB) will break them, though that will take the character's whole turn. A campaign maximum attack of 12d6 will shatter it with a full phase left to act.

 

What are the other basic character archetypes in the team? A blaster should have had no problems escaping from the Entangles ...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Entangles

 

You do understand that 'takes no damage' ONLY APPLIES TO PEOPLE OUTSIDE THE ENTANGLE, don't you? Even then it can be targetted ay -3 OCV. The entangled person can always attack and damage the entangle. Frankly I'd be astonished if an ae entangle sticking to campaign AP limtis was any kind of a problem for heroes: far too easy to break out of without even losing a half phase.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Entangles

 

I'm sure this is a subject that has probably been rehashed again and again on these boards, but please indulge a newbie's stupid questions. :-)

 

My GM just threw an agent team at us which included a guy with an entangle gun. That one guy had the good guys all messed up for most of the combat. Only after we eliminated him were we able to get the upper-hand.

 

The trouble we had started me thinking. Isn't Entangle somewhat over-powered in this system? If you give a squad of agents entangle guns (OAF, area effect, takes no damage), with a little bit of offensive support, couldn't they take down virtually any team of heroes?

 

Maybe the problem is that out of a group of 4 characters, only one is able to fly and only one has a strength above 20. Still, entangles seem to be a real pain-in-the-butt in this system. Does anyone else have the same concerns about them that I do?

 

On a more practical note, can you give me some advice about how to deal with entangles in the future. After the success that our GM had with the entangle gun today, he is sure to use it against us again in the future. I have a martial artist character with a 20 strength. What would be the best way for me to counter the threat posed by goons with entangle guns?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Unless the entangle guns are over twice as powerful as the average character, they shouldn't have been a problem. With those two Advantages, Entangle effectively costs 20 points per d6. Every attack that does BODY can beat that easily. Such an attack would have to be more than 80 active points for a 20 STR to be ineffective, or else you'll be doing at least a little BODY and eventually break out (of course, the time spent wrapped up could be nasty on an Entangle that doesn't take damage from attacks).

 

Just in case, here are a few reminders about how deal with Entangles (some have also been covered by others above, I'm just repeating them for a complete list):

 

You can use any attack or Power that does BODY damage to break out of an Entangle. You don't have to make an attack roll, you automatically do damage. This applies to ALL Entangles, even ones that "take no damage". Any attack available to the character can be used, Entangle only foils attacks that are through Accessible Foci (IAF, OAF), require Gestures or are Restrainable.

The Takes No Damage Advantage only applies to damage done to the Entangled character, not the Entangle. The Entangle takes damage just fine, it just offers no protection to the character it entangles. A more accurate name for that Advantage might be "Does Not Protect Target" or "Doest Not Add To Target's Defenses".

You friends can help you break out. They must roll an attack roll against the Entangle with a -3 OCV (which usually isn't a problem, because the Entangle has the target's DCV of 0). Their attack will damage the Entangle, even one that Takes No Damage (see above).

 

As far as defending against the specific Entangle, I can't offer any specific suggestions without knowing the stats of it and the PC involved. Two tactics that apply to defense against all forms of attacks though: Don't get hit & hit them first.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Entangles

 

You friends can help you break out. They must roll an attack roll against the Entangle with a -3 OCV (which usually isn't a problem, because the Entangle has the target's DCV of 0). Their attack will damage the Entangle, even one that Takes No Damage (see above).

 

I thought the "takes no damage" Entangle had a DCV of 8 to be targeted separately (not really that hard to hit, but not as easy as -3 OCV vs 0 DCV). No book with me, so I can't check.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Entangles

 

I thought the "takes no damage" Entangle had a DCV of 8 to be targeted separately (not really that hard to hit' date=' but not as easy as -3 OCV vs 0 DCV). No book with me, so I can't check.[/quote']

 

I don't own 5ER, but in FREd and the FAQ there's no exemption for "Takes No Damage" - the Entangle is at 0 DCV like its victim.

 

The FAQ also mentions a few other tactics for escaping Entangles: turning Desolid will let you bypass them, and you can Teleport out of Entangles (unless they're built with the appropriate Advantages to block these Powers). Depending on the SFX of the Entangle (such as nets), the Contortionist Skill may allow you to slip free, while Shrinking small enough could let you walk right through an Entangle.

 

Also as per the FAQ, a martial artist with an Escape Maneuver could use the extra STR from that maneuver for purposes of calculating his Casual Strength.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Entangles

 

A not-quite-standard build, but an interesting prospect:

 

Teleport: 3";

Armor Piercing x2 (for those pesky ones with Advantages; +1);

Only to escape Entangles (-1)

Anyway, I will agree that keeping all the attacks you might have to counter can be a chore. I just think it makes things interesting.

 

Oooh! Normals with pimp sticks! Used sparingly, they can be the nice little humbling wake up call for arrogant PCs. Sort of a, "Look! Even a puny little human with the right equipment and a little preparation can pose a problem. Maybe you shouldn't be too overconfident!"