A few more rules questions

[Gaelinic]

1) How do you create spider-man's webs in an area to entangle someone between segments if they walk into a hex or touch the area? He doesn't pay endurance for his power so continuous doesn't seem to apply. Thanks.

 

2) I understand that Find Weakness halves the defenses of Normal Defense or Resistant Defense. And, you can choose between which defense you want to halve each action. However, I am unclear how Find Weakness works for a total normal defense that combines resistant with PD/ED.

 

For example, let's say Superninja has Find Weakness and he encounters Stoneman who has 10 pd/ed and 10 PD/ED armor. According to the rules, Stoneman has a total of 20 pd/ed against normal damage. If Superninja decides to Find Weakness on Stoneman's normal defenses and succeeds, are Stoneman's total defenses against normal damage 15 pd/ed or are they 10 pd/ed? If they are 15 pd/ed, does Superninja have to specify that he is halving Stoneman's armor with another Find Weakness roll?

 

Also, the rules on page 174 indicate that a character with find weakness has to target normal defenses (PD or ED, including damage resistance). Does this mean that Superninja has to declare before using Find Weakness whether he is attempting to halve the PD or the ED of his opponent each time he rolls?

 

 

3)Does Find Weakness work against inanimate objects like walls, items, or vehicles as it does against characters?

 

 

4) How long does it take to activate Force Wall? Is it a zero phase action, attack action, half action, etc.?

 

Thank you.

[MitchellS]

Re: A few more rules questions

 

1: Check out the sticky advantage.

 

2: Find weakness bought for resistant works with killing attacks. If it's bought for a normal attack it works against total defense. So your 10 pd +10 pd armor character has 20 normal defense and would be 10 against a normal attack find weakness. He would have 5 pd armor against a find weakness bought for a killing attack.

 

3: Yes.

 

4: It's a zero phase action.

[gojira]

Re: A few more rules questions

 

1) Dunno. I think a continuing advantage, but I'm not sure.

 

2) I've always played that PD/ED goes to 10/10.

 

3) Walls can have cracks. Tanks have places that aren't well proctected, like slits to see out of, engine parts, tracks, exhaust (put a potato in there), etc. The GM can rule that a wall or a building has "Lack of Weakness", but he shouldn't always.

 

4) All powers activate as a 0 phase action unless you buy a limitation that says otherwise. Note that attacks always end your phase, so if you make a half-phase attack at the beginning of your turn, you can't activate your force wall afterwards 'cause your turn is over.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: A few more rules questions

 

1) "Sticky" is indeed the Advantage you want for this.

 

2) There's a lot of stuff in the FAQ under Find Weakness that's pertinent to this issue. I might as well just quote the whole passage here:

 

Q: When a character uses Find Weakness, does he halve all of the target’s defenses, or just specific ones?

 

 

A: Find Weakness works similarly to its counterpart, Lack Of Weakness. When a character decides to Find Weakness, he must choose which of these types of defenses he wants to Find Weakness in:

 

1. The target’s Normal Defenses (PD or ED, including Damage Resistance).

 

2. The target’s Resistant Defenses (such as Armor or Force Field). However, Find Weakness has no effect on Damage Reduction unless the GM specifically permits this.

 

3. At the GM’s discretion, any one of the target’s exotic defenses (such as Mental Defense and Power Defense). Generally speaking, most special effects of Find Weakness probably have no effect whatsoever on Flash, Mental, or Power Defense (a -0 Limitation); if a character wants to affect those defenses, typically he should buy Find Weakness with the Does Not Apply Against Certain Types Of Defenses Limitation to make it only apply against that one type of exotic defense.

 

The character can switch what he wants to apply his Find Weakness to from Phase to Phase. For example, one Phase he could Find Weakness in the target’s Resistant Defenses; the next he could Find Weakness in the same target’s Normal Defenses. But he can only locate the weaknesses in one type of defenses at a time.

 

Even if the character switches from defense type to defense type, the standard -2 per additional roll penalty applies. So, for example, if a character Finds Weakness twice in a target’s Resistant Defenses, and then wants to halve his Normal Defenses, the roll for halving the Normal Defenses would be at -4 (since it’s the third Find Weakness roll made against the target).

 

As always, you should take into account special effects, common sense, dramatic sense, and considerations of game balance. There may be situations where the GM’s willing to expand the effects of Find Weakness a little, or times when he considers it necessary to reduce them.

 

 

3) Find Weakness does indeed work against inanimate objects, unless SFX would argue against it, or you Limit the Power.

 

4) Activating a Force Wall is a zero-Phase action, unless you're attempting to set it up at range, in which case it would require an attack Action and roll to target a hex.

[Gaelinic]

Re: A few more rules questions

 

I posted the last three questions with Steve Long. Just in case you were interested, his response to number two is 15. You only halve the normal or resistant portion of the defense, depending on which you specify.

 

Thanks.

[MitchellS]

Re: A few more rules questions

 

I posted the last three questions with Steve Long. Just in case you were interested, his response to number two is 15. You only halve the normal or resistant portion of the defense, depending on which you specify.

 

Thanks.

Let's just say that not all of Steve Long's replies are logical. If I have a character with 30 pd and 30 ed who buys 30 pd/ed damage resistance by Steve's logic the only time find weakness would work on that character is if the FW was purchased against resistant defenses. But why would anyone buy find weakness on their billy club for resistant defenses?

 

Resistant FW should be for killing attacks [you have a 2d6 RKA gun and you're very good at shooting it] and it should reduce resistant defenses by half against the body of a killing attack and all defenses by half against the stun [since you get to add normal and resistant defenses for stun].

 

Normal FW should be for non-killing attacks and it reduces total pd or ed by half. How you got the pd and ed [combination of normal, ff, armor and fw] should not matter. By Steve's rulling Billy-Club Man can't knock down a force wall because it's resistant. By the same token, since buildings have resistant defenses he can't knock down the walls of it too. So there goes the entire logic.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: A few more rules questions

 

But why would anyone buy find weakness on their billy club for resistant defenses?

 

You don't buy it for a defense. You choose the defense when you use Find Weakness.

 

The character can switch what he wants to apply his Find Weakness to from Phase to Phase. For example, one Phase he could Find Weakness in the target’s Resistant Defenses; the next he could Find Weakness in the same target’s Normal Defenses. But he can only locate the weaknesses in one type of defenses at a time.

 

You always buy Find Weakness for a specific attack.

 

As for the question of why anyone would use Find Weakness with billy club against resistant defenses, it's because it protects against the billy club also.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: A few more rules questions

 

BTW MitchellS, I wasn't certain from your post if you were considering PD or ED with Damage Resistance to count as "Resistant Defenses." Just in case you were, I should point out that for purposes of 5E Find Weakness, PD and ED count as "Normal Defenses" whether or not they have Damage Resistance. Force Field, Force Wall and Armor are "Resistant Defenses" in this case.

[prestidigitator]

Re: A few more rules questions

 

1.) I don't think Sticky is right. Sticky means that if you touch a target that is already affected, you get affected as well. I think Continuous is perfectly applicable. In fact, the description you give sounds exactly like the Continuous Advantage as applied to Area of Effect attacks (there is no real, "damage," for targets to take each Phase, although I guess you could treat it as additional applications and thus have it increase in Body and, "heal," itself; a reduced Advantage value or small Limitation could take care of this if you don't want it). I don't believe it has to cost End to be Continuous. You might also add in Continuous Charges (which seem appropriate for Spidey) or Uncontrolled (in which case an End Cost is still probably appropriate).

[Lord Liaden]

Re: A few more rules questions

 

I have to respectfully disagree, Presti. Entangle is a specific example used in the rulebook description of the Sticky Advantage (FREd p. 173, or 5ER p. 268). Continuous applied to Entangle would just increase the BODY of it each Phase, but unless you used Continuing Charges or added Uncontrolled to the construct, Spidey would have to keep consciously feeding webbing into the area, rather than walk away from it.

[MitchellS]

Re: A few more rules questions

 

BTW MitchellS' date=' I wasn't certain from your post if you were considering PD or ED with Damage Resistance to count as "Resistant Defenses." Just in case you were, I should point out that for purposes of 5E Find Weakness, PD and ED count as "Normal Defenses" whether or not they have Damage Resistance. Force Field, Force Wall and Armor are "Resistant Defenses" in this case. [/quote']

Thanks LL, I had realized that a little earlier. Unfortunately that's an example of one of those "rules exceptions" which irritates me so much.

[prestidigitator]

Re: A few more rules questions

 

I have to respectfully disagree' date=' Presti. Entangle is a specific example used in the rulebook description of the Sticky Advantage (FREd p. 173, or 5ER p. 268). Continuous applied to Entangle would just increase the BODY of it each Phase, but unless you used Continuing Charges or added Uncontrolled to the construct, Spidey would have to keep consciously feeding webbing into the area, rather than walk away from it.[/quote']

I think that use of Sticky is more for the, "Tar Baby," effect than for a duplication of the effects of Continuous. I could be wrong, though. It wouldn't be the first place where an example shows an Advantage being used in an exceptional case that isn't mentioned in the rules and should be the province of another Advantage.

 

And even with Sticky I believe you have to continue to pay End and/or maintain it unless you buy Reduced End Cost and Uncontrolled or Continuing Charges. [EDIT: Or Persistent, of course, though that is not really applicable to Entangle unless perhaps you make it a Damage Shield or Triggered Power or something.]

[Lord Liaden]

Re: A few more rules questions

 

1) How do you create spider-man's webs in an area to entangle someone between segments if they walk into a hex or touch the area? He doesn't pay endurance for his power so continuous doesn't seem to apply. Thanks.

 

Well, it sounds like Gaelinic is looking for an Area Of Effect "tar baby." From what I read in the example under Sticky, this would seem to be the right Advantage in this case.

 

The thing about Entangle is, even though it's technically an Instant Power, the effect that it creates continues to linger until the Entangle is destroyed. If you had an Entangle filling an area you couldn't just walk through it after the Entangle was put up without having to do BODY damage past its Defense. What Sticky would add to it is someone trying to do so becoming Entangled himself. IMO, of course.

[Dust Raven]

Re: A few more rules questions

 

1) How do you create spider-man's webs in an area to entangle someone between segments if they walk into a hex or touch the area? He doesn't pay endurance for his power so continuous doesn't seem to apply. Thanks.

The most accurate method I've come across so far is to buy an Entangle, AE: One Hex with Trigger (when a targer steps through the area). You don't need Sticky or Invisible Power Effects, though both of those would be appropriate if you wanted anyone else who touched the trapped character to also become stuck, or wanted the web to blend in with surroundings like an actual spider web sometimes does.

 

2) I understand that Find Weakness halves the defenses of Normal Defense or Resistant Defense. And, you can choose between which defense you want to halve each action. However, I am unclear how Find Weakness works for a total normal defense that combines resistant with PD/ED.

 

For example, let's say Superninja has Find Weakness and he encounters Stoneman who has 10 pd/ed and 10 PD/ED armor. According to the rules, Stoneman has a total of 20 pd/ed against normal damage. If Superninja decides to Find Weakness on Stoneman's normal defenses and succeeds, are Stoneman's total defenses against normal damage 15 pd/ed or are they 10 pd/ed? If they are 15 pd/ed, does Superninja have to specify that he is halving Stoneman's armor with another Find Weakness roll?

 

Also, the rules on page 174 indicate that a character with find weakness has to target normal defenses (PD or ED, including damage resistance). Does this mean that Superninja has to declare before using Find Weakness whether he is attempting to halve the PD or the ED of his opponent each time he rolls?

Ain't this a can of worms? As you can tell from the other posts, the rules are at best cloudy on this issue. I've gone over and over it with Steve Long and though I now understand how it actually works, I'm not sure if it works well. I am sure it could have been made less complicated though.

 

Basically, there are two types of Defenses, resistant and normal. This does not reffer to a characters defense totals, but where the individual defenses come from. PD and ED (the Characteristics) are normal defenses, and most Defense Powers are resistant, such as Armor & Force Field. Damage Resistant doesn't even count for this, because it doesn't provide any defense, it just makes normal defense resistant. PD & ED are still considerd normal for the purposes of Find Weakness however.

 

So basically, if you have three characters, Character A with a PD & ED of 22 each and Damage Resistance for 20 PD/ 20 ED, Character B with PD & ED of 2 each (base value) and Armor of 20 PD/ 20 ED, and Character C with PD & ED of 12 each, Damage Resistance for 10 PD/ 10 ED and Armor of 10 PD/ 10 ED, and they are each attacked by a character with Find Weakness (using it versus resistant defenses) their defenses would be as follows, assuming a successful roll:

 

[before Find Weakness, each character has 22 PD (20 rPD), 22 ED (20 rED)]

A: 22 PD (20 rPD), 22 ED (20 rED)

B: 12 PD (10 rPD), 12 ED (20 rED)

C: 17 PD (15 rPD), 17 ED (15 rED)

 

In each case, the Find Weakness halved the character's resistant defense (meaning Powers that provide resistant defenses). A has no powers that provide resistant defense, so his defense values don't change. almost all of B's defense come from Armor, so his total defense values are almost cut in half (only that 2 PD & ED aren't). C is about half and half, so his would drop some, but not a lot.

 

 

3)Does Find Weakness work against inanimate objects like walls, items, or vehicles as it does against characters?

Sure does! How else do you think those martial arts tricks are done?

 

 

4) How long does it take to activate Force Wall? Is it a zero phase action, attack action, half action, etc.?

Normally, only a 0 Phase. The exception is when you are using FW as an attack, such as when you are trying to place a globe around an enemy, or putting up a wall in the path of someone moving (so that they'll run into it). In those cases, it takes a Half Phase that counts as an Attack Action.

 

Thank you.

 

You're welcome.

[gojira]

Re: A few more rules questions

 

So if Power Armour Guy has normal PD/ED of 15/15. And his OIHID power suit gives him armour of 10/10. And he currently has his force field runing at 10/10.

 

Does it take three seperate successful Find Weakness roles to reduce all of those defenses in half? Or does the two resistant defense of FF and Armour get lumped together and can be affected by one Find Weakness role?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: A few more rules questions

 

So if Power Armour Guy has normal PD/ED of 15/15. And his OIHID power suit gives him armour of 10/10. And he currently has his force field runing at 10/10.

 

Does it take three seperate successful Find Weakness roles to reduce all of those defenses in half? Or does the two resistant defense of FF and Armour get lumped together and can be affected by one Find Weakness role?

 

As I understand the rules, FF and Armour would get lumped together vs one FW roll, while PAG's Normal Defenses would require a separate roll. Furthermore, whichever of those rolls was attempted second would suffer the standard subsequent attempt penalty of -2.

[Dust Raven]

Re: A few more rules questions

 

So if Power Armour Guy has normal PD/ED of 15/15. And his OIHID power suit gives him armour of 10/10. And he currently has his force field runing at 10/10.

 

Does it take three seperate successful Find Weakness roles to reduce all of those defenses in half? Or does the two resistant defense of FF and Armour get lumped together and can be affected by one Find Weakness role?

 

PAG's Armor and FF are both resistant defenses, and would both be affected by a single Find Weakness roll versus resistant defenses. All defenses of the same type are lumped together.

[prestidigitator]

Re: A few more rules questions

 

PAG's Armor and FF are both resistant defenses' date=' and would both be affected by a single Find Weakness roll versus resistant defenses. All defenses of the same type are lumped together.[/quote']

Hmm. I hate to throw in another wrench, but are they lumped together in that they are all halved, or lumped together in that they are added together before they are halved? IOW, if I have 5 rPD Armor and a 5 rPD Force Field, and someone successfully uses (resistant) Find Weakness on me, is my rPD now 5/2 + 5/2 ~= 4, or (5 + 5)/2 ~= 5 (I am assuming that we round to the benefit of the character who caused the rounding, which in this case would be the attacker, but a similar question would arise if we rounded in the defender's favor)? It's probably a pretty minor question, but it could matter quite a bit in low-powered heroic games, for example. I would probably myself tend to add everything together before dividing.

[prestidigitator]

Re: A few more rules questions

 

[before Find Weakness' date= each character has 22 PD (20 rPD), 22 ED (20 rED)]

A: 22 PD (20 rPD), 22 ED (20 rED)

B: 12 PD (10 rPD), 12 ED (20 rED)

C: 17 PD (15 rPD), 17 ED (15 rED)

Er, a minor point, but I think you forgot to change B's rED. Shouldn't it be 12 ED (10 rED), just like the PD?

[Dust Raven]

Re: A few more rules questions

 

Hmm. I hate to throw in another wrench' date=' but are they lumped together in that they are all halved, or lumped together in that they are added together [i']before[/i] they are halved? IOW, if I have 5 rPD Armor and a 5 rPD Force Field, and someone successfully uses (resistant) Find Weakness on me, is my rPD now 5/2 + 5/2 ~= 4, or (5 + 5)/2 ~= 5 (I am assuming that we round to the benefit of the character who caused the rounding, which in this case would be the attacker, but a similar question would arise if we rounded in the defender's favor)? It's probably a pretty minor question, but it could matter quite a bit in low-powered heroic games, for example. I would probably myself tend to add everything together before dividing.

 

Well, um... pick one. Personally, I lump them together before I halve them. My interpretation is that the values, not the Powers, are being halved.

 

As for when to round, always round in favor of the defender, and ties always go to the defender (and if it's a grab, the grabber is "defending" against the escape attempt, so there are really no exceptions ).

[Gaelinic]

Re: A few more rules questions

 

The most accurate method I've come across so far is to buy an Entangle, AE: One Hex with Trigger (when a targer steps through the area). You don't need Sticky or Invisible Power Effects, though both of those would be appropriate if you wanted anyone else who touched the trapped character to also become stuck, or wanted the web to blend in with surroundings like an actual spider web sometimes does.

 

 

Ain't this a can of worms? As you can tell from the other posts, the rules are at best cloudy on this issue. I've gone over and over it with Steve Long and though I now understand how it actually works, I'm not sure if it works well. I am sure it could have been made less complicated though.

 

Basically, there are two types of Defenses, resistant and normal. This does not reffer to a characters defense totals, but where the individual defenses come from. PD and ED (the Characteristics) are normal defenses, and most Defense Powers are resistant, such as Armor & Force Field. Damage Resistant doesn't even count for this, because it doesn't provide any defense, it just makes normal defense resistant. PD & ED are still considerd normal for the purposes of Find Weakness however.

 

So basically, if you have three characters, Character A with a PD & ED of 22 each and Damage Resistance for 20 PD/ 20 ED, Character B with PD & ED of 2 each (base value) and Armor of 20 PD/ 20 ED, and Character C with PD & ED of 12 each, Damage Resistance for 10 PD/ 10 ED and Armor of 10 PD/ 10 ED, and they are each attacked by a character with Find Weakness (using it versus resistant defenses) their defenses would be as follows, assuming a successful roll:

 

[before Find Weakness, each character has 22 PD (20 rPD), 22 ED (20 rED)]

A: 22 PD (20 rPD), 22 ED (20 rED)

B: 12 PD (10 rPD), 12 ED (20 rED)

C: 17 PD (15 rPD), 17 ED (15 rED)

 

In each case, the Find Weakness halved the character's resistant defense (meaning Powers that provide resistant defenses). A has no powers that provide resistant defense, so his defense values don't change. almost all of B's defense come from Armor, so his total defense values are almost cut in half (only that 2 PD & ED aren't). C is about half and half, so his would drop some, but not a lot.

 

 

 

Sure does! How else do you think those martial arts tricks are done?

 

 

 

Normally, only a 0 Phase. The exception is when you are using FW as an attack, such as when you are trying to place a globe around an enemy, or putting up a wall in the path of someone moving (so that they'll run into it). In those cases, it takes a Half Phase that counts as an Attack Action.

 

 

 

You're welcome.

 

Thanks for providing a response. Steve responded to this question. But your example provides further clarification. Now that I understand, I personally think its unnecessarily complicated. How can an attacker know how the defender bought his powers? It seems like the rule, as explained, forces players to think in gamespeak rather than in genre. Artificial barriers exist to the character with find weakness that don't reflect the action of the scene.

 

Initially, when I got Steve's response, I was going to enforce the rule as explained. However, I had not thought about the implications until reading your response. Basically, if a defender purchased the power in a different way, the attacker with find weakness might not get the ability to use his power. It just seems to encourage players to use the rules to outmaneuver their GM when creating their character.

 

I think I'd just let the player tell him if he's using find weakness on normal defense or resistant defense. I'd allow the total number of armor or force field to be halved for purposes of normal defense. Hmmmm . . . well, now I'm back to what my original concern in which find weakness becomes more effective and cheaper than armor piercing.

 

Maybe, the answer is in damage resistance. I'll enforce the rule as written but maybe move damage resistance over to resistant defenses for purposes of finding their weakness.

 

With regard to Force Wall, would it be an attack action to place a field around a bunch of innocents to protect them or to defend them against an attack? Also, could a character abort to putting up a Force Wall around this innocents? How about around himself?

 

I'm about to post my mega sized rule question thread. I'd appreciate your input in that one as well. After reading the rules, I just get the impression that the system somehow got more complicated since 4th edition. It's like the designer must have thought, "Those damn players are getting away with too much. Let's put a stop to that." So now every power or ability has been codified with quantifiers to regulate every seen or unforseen circumstance. To create the ability or power "the right way" you have to have the right advantages or limitations, which, now more than ever, skyrocket the original price of your "simple" ability.

 

I really loved my old Champs campaign I ran for two years. But in getting through the powers section, I just get the feeling that in order to let players create the abilities they want, I'm either going to have to expand the active cost limits, which can really thow the damage caps for a loop, or look at each player's PC and artificially impose limits on powers based on subjective feelings. And the latter option is not the reason for choosing to play Hero in the first place. The lure of Hero is its clear boundaries for the environment, objects, powers, damage caps, etc. I like knowing how much a character can move, how much damage he can do, how much it takes to break a wall, etc. You always knew exacty what you could do and how it related to the world around you. The world was interactive and destructible. I don't get that from other rule systems.

 

However, the new rules with the strange enforcement of advantages and limitations, now make you think of your world like a lawyer. By clearly defining everything, the simple point cost structure now inflates the cost to purchase any abilitiess you want to recreate from the comics. And then, you just end up going back to, as I mentioned above, allowing uneven constructs of powers and abilities just to satisfy concepts. Yet, those same constructs may go beyond your artificial imposition of caps. I liked damage caps and active point caps. But they don't work now in order to create useful powers.

 

The clearest example of this, and my biggest qualm, was the change in damge shield that now requires continuous. Why can't damage shield just mean what that ability does? Why add another quantifier to this? Buying a power now with damage shield either makes your power completely useless, if you strictly stick to active point costs (i.e. not enough dice of damage), or extremely expensive by breaking the active point costs.

 

I also thought at one time about running Star Wars in Hero. I mean the system can create any power, right? However, the more I thought about it, the less inclined I am to realize that dream. You realize that Jedi are just too powerful with your gamer's toolkit and cannot exist with other heroic level characters within point limits. Or, if you impose artificial limitations like activation rolls, you create a game that does not, by any stretch of the imagination, meet the the conventions of the genre. When did you ever see a Jedi fail to activate his force powers?

 

Anyway, I guess this rant should go in another thread. But to end this on a positive note, I still plan on running a Galactic Champs game. Supers without Hero just doesn't seem right. SAS is too arbitrary and unclear. MnM has the capricious D20 die that is so unforgiving.

 

Thanks you all for reading thus far and providing guidance.

[MitchellS]

Re: A few more rules questions

 

Thanks for providing a response. Steve responded to this question. But your example provides further clarification. Now that I understand, I personally think its unnecessarily complicated. How can an attacker know how the defender bought his powers? It seems like the rule, as explained, forces players to think in gamespeak rather than in genre. Artificial barriers exist to the character with find weakness that don't reflect the action of the scene.

 

Initially, when I got Steve's response, I was going to enforce the rule as explained. However, I had not thought about the implications until reading your response. Basically, if a defender purchased the power in a different way, the attacker with find weakness might not get the ability to use his power. It just seems to encourage players to use the rules to outmaneuver their GM when creating their character.

 

I think I'd just let the player tell him if he's using find weakness on normal defense or resistant defense. I'd allow the total number of armor or force field to be halved for purposes of normal defense. Hmmmm . . . well, now I'm back to what my original concern in which find weakness becomes more effective and cheaper than armor piercing.

 

Maybe, the answer is in damage resistance. I'll enforce the rule as written but maybe move damage resistance over to resistant defenses for purposes of finding their weakness.

As I said a few days ago, it's just easier to bunch all the defenses together and not worry about whether it's resistant or not. When you buy the FW for the power in question just let the players run with it.

 

And it's not really better than armor piercing. If you assume a 60 AP power armor piercing would cost 30 AP. Now throw in the activation roll and half phase delay to make it work like FW and you have a cost that is close to the same. Because of this you really shouldn't need to worry about what defenses are halved or not. That's just useless numbers-keeping, IMO.

 

With regard to Force Wall, would it be an attack action to place a field around a bunch of innocents to protect them or to defend them against an attack? Also, could a character abort to putting up a Force Wall around this innocents? How about around himself?

I only consider it to be an attack if you're using it to stop someone like an entangle. If you're just using it to save some people I consider that to be a 0 phase action. If you're aborting then that does constitute a action which costs you your next phase.

 

I'm about to post my mega sized rule question thread. I'd appreciate your input in that one as well. After reading the rules, I just get the impression that the system somehow got more complicated since 4th issue. It's like the designer must have thought, "Those damn players are getting away with too much. Let's put a stop to that." So now every power or ability has been codified with quantifiers to regulate every seen or unforseen circumstance. To create the ability or power "the right way" you have to have the right advantages or limitations, which, now more than ever, skyrocket the original price of your "simple" ability.

It did get more complicated. There's very little free-flow left in the game. Everything seems to need to be balanced by points, advantages, and limitations now. I personally don't play that way.

 

I really loved my old Champs campaign I ran for two years. But in getting through the powers section, I just get the feeling that in order to let players create the abilities they want, I'm either going to have to expland the active cost limits, which can really through the damage caps for a loop, or look at each player's PC and artificially impose limits on powers based on subjective feelings. And the latter option is not the reason for choosing to play Hero in the first place. The lure of Hero is its clear rules boundaries for the environment, objects, and powers. I like knowing how much a character can move, how much damage he can do, how much it takes to break a wall, etc. You always knew exacty what you could do and how it related to the world around you. The world was interactive and destructible. I don't get that from other rule systems.

I'm not sure what you mean by expaned AP limits. The guidelines in place dictate 6-14d6 in damage with AP in the 40-80 point range. I don't know how powerful you want your heroes but if you follow the 12dc and 75 AP limit you can fit most of what you want in there without too much trouble.

 

I liked damage caps and active point caps. But they don't work now in order to create useful powers.

We might have a different definition of "useful" here. I have found that 12d6 EB with 1/2 end [75 AP] is pretty useful.

 

The clearest example of this, and my biggest qualm, was the change in damge shield that now requires continuous. Why can't damage shield just mean what that ability does? Why add another quantifier to this? Buying a power now with damage shield either makes your power completely useless, if you strictly stick to active point costs (i.e. not enough dice of damage), or extremely expensive by breaking the active point costs.

Lots of people complain about damage shield. I house rule it as a +1 advantage now rather than the +11/2 currently required.

 

I also thought at one time about running Star Wars in Hero. I mean the system can create any power, right? However, the more I thougth about it, the less inclined I am to realize that dream. You realize that Jedi are just too powerful with your gamer's toolkit and cannot exist with other heroic level characters within point limits. Or, if you impose artificial limitations like activation rolls, you create a game that does not, by any stretch of the imagination, meet the the conventions of the genre. When did you ever see a Jedi fail to activate his force powers?

There are other ways to keep a Jedi's cost down. I'd suggest you look at the how magic is handled in The Turakian Age. Cost multipliers seems to work find and allow you to make fairly inexpensive Jedi without the need for activations and other limitations.

[Dust Raven]

Re: A few more rules questions

 

Thanks for providing a response. Steve responded to this question. But your example provides further clarification. Now that I understand, I personally think its unnecessarily complicated. How can an attacker know how the defender bought his powers? It seems like the rule, as explained, forces players to think in gamespeak rather than in genre. Artificial barriers exist to the character with find weakness that don't reflect the action of the scene.

 

Initially, when I got Steve's response, I was going to enforce the rule as explained. However, I had not thought about the implications until reading your response. Basically, if a defender purchased the power in a different way, the attacker with find weakness might not get the ability to use his power. It just seems to encourage players to use the rules to outmaneuver their GM when creating their character.

 

I think I'd just let the player tell him if he's using find weakness on normal defense or resistant defense. I'd allow the total number of armor or force field to be halved for purposes of normal defense. Hmmmm . . . well, now I'm back to what my original concern in which find weakness becomes more effective and cheaper than armor piercing.

 

Maybe, the answer is in damage resistance. I'll enforce the rule as written but maybe move damage resistance over to resistant defenses for purposes of finding their weakness.

Well, it's all a matter of SFX. The mechanics are there for fairness, and a little bit of metagaming is unavoidable, but I agree these rules could have been more smooth in use.

 

In game, it's usually a matter of common sense what an attacker Finds Weakness against. If he sees the target is using a FF or obvious Armor, he'll use it against resistant defenses. It's those inobvious Armors (it's technically not visible and has not perceptive difference from normal defenses), it gets tricky. It's usually trial an error if the type of defenses are unknown, and I usually write off an attempt at defenses the target doesn't have (or doesn't have a lot of) as a "failed" roll that allows a chance to try again.

 

With regard to Force Wall, would it be an attack action to place a field around a bunch of innocents to protect them or to defend them against an attack? Also, could a character abort to putting up a Force Wall around this innocents? How about around himself?

 

Technically and officially, yes it takes an Attack Action. Personally, I take to the rule of defensive actions. Any action that would be considerd "defensive" can be aborted to. This includes FW, FF, Desolidification and Invisibility. If such a Power can be used to help others, it can be aborted to for that purpose (just like Missile Deflection can). As for using an action to errect a FW around some innocents, I'd let that go as a 0 Phase Action, as it really isn't an attack.

 

I'm about to post my mega sized rule question thread. I'd appreciate your input in that one as well.

 

I'll look for it.

 

As for your other comments, I agree. I do believe it's all a change for the good. Like always, there will be some rules I won't agree with, but with everything so uberdefined, it's easier to find those and change them. It's cumbersome and frustrating at times, but worth the effort and lives up to the title "toolkit."