Limited VPPs

[Dust Raven]

A few new character I'm making have VPPs with the Limited Class Of Powers Available Limitation. The trouble I'm having is determing what the value of that Limitation should be. Here's the VPPs in question:

 

Spells: VPP 30+15 Limited Class Of Powers Available (magic spells)

 

What I mean my "magic spells" is that any Power bought through the pool should function as I've defined spell magic. Each spell must cost END and require no upkeep from the spellcaster (must be Instant, or an Uncontrolled Constant Power, no Persistant). Any Power normally allowed in a VPP is allowed, as well as a highly restrictive list of Enhanced Senses. How much would this Limitation be worth?

 

Faith of the Moon: VPP 40+20 Limited Class Of Powers Available (moonlight based faith magic)

 

This one is a bit more complicated. It doesn't function like the spells VPP above, but is similar. Powers usually must cost END, but can never be Uncontrolled. Powers that don't cost END must be Persistant and represent a physical object (but never a Focus). Anything that creates a permanent effect cannot be used (Entangles must automatically dissolve after a short time, or example) and nothing with a mind (or even something that acts autonomously, mind or no) can be created (leaving Summon completely out, in addition to some SFX of other Powers and Modifiers). All powers must involve the Moon in it's SFX in some way (not really restrictive, but unless it can be classified as a "Moon Spell" you can't do it). How much would this be worth?

[CourtFool]

Limited VPPostscript

 

Both examples seem to fall between Slightly Limited Class (-¼) and Limited Class (-½) as listed on pg. 324 of reFred. When in doubt I error on the side of a less limitation. So I would say go with -¼.

[Vondy]

Re: Limited VPPs

 

The first one I'm iffy on, but I tend to be fairly liberal so I would give you a -1/4 for it. For me, unless the lims (like costs end, etc) are applied to the control cost, then they're specific to the power, not the pool. Unless "spells" is actually limiting in terms of breadth or SFX I would be inclined so say the lim is -0.

 

The second one depends on how many "faith based moon magic" spells there are. If its a shot list with narrow application the lim could go as high as -1 in my book (but then, an MP might be better). If its a fairly long list with broad applications I would suggest -1/4.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Limited VPPs

 

A few new character I'm making have VPPs with the Limited Class Of Powers Available Limitation. The trouble I'm having is determing what the value of that Limitation should be. Here's the VPPs in question:

 

Spells: VPP 30+15 Limited Class Of Powers Available (magic spells)

 

What I mean my "magic spells" is that any Power bought through the pool should function as I've defined spell magic. Each spell must cost END and require no upkeep from the spellcaster (must be Instant, or an Uncontrolled Constant Power, no Persistant). Any Power normally allowed in a VPP is allowed, as well as a highly restrictive list of Enhanced Senses. How much would this Limitation be worth?

 

When I assess the impact of such a limitation, I'm inclined to ask "what can this VPP not do?" Each spell must cost END, so there's a bit of a limitation there, as most VPP's could buy powers down to 0 END or buy 0 END powers without the "costs END limitation. No Constant power can be purchasedunless it is Uncontrolled. That restricts all movement and most defensive and body-alteration powers fairly significantly. I'd call this at least -1/2, and I'd be open to a larger limitation depending on the list of abilities which are prohibited within the pool.

 

Faith of the Moon: VPP 40+20 Limited Class Of Powers Available (moonlight based faith magic)

 

This one is a bit more complicated. It doesn't function like the spells VPP above, but is similar. Powers usually must cost END, but can never be Uncontrolled. Powers that don't cost END must be Persistant and represent a physical object (but never a Focus). Anything that creates a permanent effect cannot be used (Entangles must automatically dissolve after a short time, or example) and nothing with a mind (or even something that acts autonomously, mind or no) can be created (leaving Summon completely out, in addition to some SFX of other Powers and Modifiers). All powers must involve the Moon in it's SFX in some way (not really restrictive, but unless it can be classified as a "Moon Spell" you can't do it). How much would this be worth?

 

Again, I'd be inclined to assess what this pool canmot do. I'm less clear on this one - are there more effects prohibited by this structure, or less? I think you need to go back and assess what this pool can, and can't, do to assess an appropriate limitation, but I'm leaning to -1/2 at least.

 

Let's also remember the book cites "magic only" as a -1/4 limitation. Both of these would seem to be more restrictive than "any magic".

[Ndreare]

Re: Limited VPPs

 

I would consider the "Spells" as a -1/4 limitation, While the "Moon Spells" I would consider a -1/2 limitation.

 

If you think about it how much of an advantage would a character with out those limitations have in utility over those two caster? Quite a bit I think over the "Moon Caster" and a measurable differnce from the "Spell Caster".

 

Roll it over in your head from the players view and that works alot some time.

"My GM wants me topay full cost for a power but not get full utility out of it?"

"My GM will give me a 20% cost break for some minor restrictions"

"My GM will give me a 33% cost break for some moderate restrictions"

 

 

Another thing to consider lets look at other -1/4 limitations in the book. Like IIF, Activation -15, Delayed Phase, Power Does not Work in Intense Magnetic Fields or Not Under Water. Not very limiting eh? I often think comparing as a GM, would I as the player rather have this limitation over that one? If the answer is so easy it is not worth asking then you have not found the limitation level; however if you do have reasonable things to weigh against then you are likely in the right bracket.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Limited VPPs

 

I was just thinking a simple -1/2 for each.

 

For the, "Spells," I don't think the restriction of not being able to actively maintain the Powers is all that bad, but every Power costing End is certainly worth something. If no Powers costed End by default, you could take a -1/2 Limitation (Costs End) on the reserve. Let's say half the spells would normally cost no End by default, so we'll drop it to a -1/4 instead. That on top of -1/4 Hugh mentioned for, "magic only," and we're at a total Limitation of -1/2.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Limited VPPs

 

When I assess the impact of such a limitation, I'm inclined to ask "what can this VPP not do?" Each spell must cost END, so there's a bit of a limitation there, as most VPP's could buy powers down to 0 END or buy 0 END powers without the "costs END limitation. No Constant power can be purchasedunless it is Uncontrolled. That restricts all movement and most defensive and body-alteration powers fairly significantly. I'd call this at least -1/2, and I'd be open to a larger limitation depending on the list of abilities which are prohibited within the pool.

 

 

 

Again, I'd be inclined to assess what this pool canmot do. I'm less clear on this one - are there more effects prohibited by this structure, or less? I think you need to go back and assess what this pool can, and can't, do to assess an appropriate limitation, but I'm leaning to -1/2 at least.

 

Let's also remember the book cites "magic only" as a -1/4 limitation. Both of these would seem to be more restrictive than "any magic".

 

That's an interesting way of looking at this, I hadn't thought of doing it that way. Here's goes:

 

Spells: Cannot have 0 END or Persistant Powers, cannot have Constant/Continuous Power unless they are Uncontrolled (all spells must have an "instant" effect and cost END).

 

Moon Faith Magic: Cannot have a Power that doesn't involve the Moon in its SFX in some way, cannot have a Power that creates a permenant object, cannot have Uncontrolled or autonomous effects, cannot have a Persistant Power unless represented by a physical object, no Powers may have Focus or Uncontrolled Modifiers, cannot create an elemental SFX other than "light (moonlight)" (so no fire, wind, water, pure energy, etc. effects".

 

Is that helpful?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Limited VPPs

 

Another thing to consider lets look at other -1/4 limitations in the book. Like IIF' date=' Activation -15, Delayed Phase, Power Does not Work in Intense Magnetic Fields or Not Under Water. Not very limiting eh? I often think comparing as a GM, would I as the player rather have this limitation over that one? If the answer is so easy it is not worth asking then you have not found the limitation level; however if you do have reasonable things to weigh against then you are likely in the right bracket.[/quote']

 

That's something I was thinking about, as both of my examples sound more Limiting that the by-the-book example of Magic Only (-1/4).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Limited VPPs

 

That's an interesting way of looking at this, I hadn't thought of doing it that way. Here's goes:

 

Spells: Cannot have 0 END or Persistant Powers, cannot have Constant/Continuous Power unless they are Uncontrolled (all spells must have an "instant" effect and cost END).

 

Moon Faith Magic: Cannot have a Power that doesn't involve the Moon in its SFX in some way, cannot have a Power that creates a permenant object, cannot have Uncontrolled or autonomous effects, cannot have a Persistant Power unless represented by a physical object, no Powers may have Focus or Uncontrolled Modifiers, cannot create an elemental SFX other than "light (moonlight)" (so no fire, wind, water, pure energy, etc. effects".

 

Is that helpful?

 

Actually, what I've done with these is get much more specific (eg. "cannot have any defenses outside Force Fields/Force Walls"), going on a power by power, and advantage by advantage, basis. It can be pretty time consuming, but it forces consideration of what the VPP can, and cannot, achieve, which then gives you an ability to eyeball the versatility compared to a "does anything I want" VPP.

 

I'm inclined to call "spells" a -1/2 or -3/4 (I see that "nothing constant or persistent" as a pretty significant restriction). I'd probably go 1/4 more for Moon Powers, which strikes me as more restrictive with no real scientific analysis.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Limited VPPs

 

Okay, I think I'm just gonna save the extra headache and call them both a -1/2. If I end up playing either character and the GM disagrees, then I'll change it, but for now I'm the GM (bwahahahaha).

 

 

Next question:

 

For the Faith of the Moon VPP, how much would "Can Only Change Powers In View Of The Mood" be worth? This means that, day or night, the moon must be in plain view of the character, typically meaning outside or near a window facing the moon, and that for about 12 hours a day the VPP will be stuck. The moon wouldn't necessarily need to be looked at, just be look at-able. An overcast sky would block the view, but an unusually bright sun during a new moon would not (it's still up there and in view, even it you can't actually see it, but opaque physical barriers will block it).

 

This is one of those where I want to say -1 (because of the half a day thing), but it's somewhat more limiting that than and I'm not sure how much more limiting. I'm not thinking as much as a -2, but somewhere inbetween.

[Black Rose]

Re: Limited VPPs

 

Okay, I think I'm just gonna save the extra headache and call them both a -1/2. If I end up playing either character and the GM disagrees, then I'll change it, but for now I'm the GM (bwahahahaha).

 

 

Next question:

 

For the Faith of the Moon VPP, how much would "Can Only Change Powers In View Of The Mood" be worth? This means that, day or night, the moon must be in plain view of the character, typically meaning outside or near a window facing the moon, and that for about 12 hours a day the VPP will be stuck. The moon wouldn't necessarily need to be looked at, just be look at-able. An overcast sky would block the view, but an unusually bright sun during a new moon would not (it's still up there and in view, even it you can't actually see it, but opaque physical barriers will block it).

 

This is one of those where I want to say -1 (because of the half a day thing), but it's somewhat more limiting that than and I'm not sure how much more limiting. I'm not thinking as much as a -2, but somewhere inbetween.

 

I don't think I would go further than -1. Granted, there's a less than one-half chance you can change powers, but you can work around it a bit (move outside and such). Also, I'm finding myself leaning more and more toward smaller disads. Kharmic balance for all the overly large ones I used to make.