Throw vs. Strike

[largosama]

Let's say I have a brick character with 70 strength and I'm up against a 350 lbs man. We're fighting inside of a building. Assuming that the building will not fall if you bust up the walls a bit, is there any advantage to my brick striking the guy as opposed to just grabbing him and throwing him at full strength into a wall?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Throw vs. Strike

 

The strike avoids both the OCV and DCV penalties which will be imposed by a Grab. I'd call that a disadvantage of Grab, but I suppose it's also an advantage of STrike.

[MitchellS]

Re: Throw vs. Strike

 

There's also the advantage in that you might not want to chase after the person once you throw him. Now he can sit and wait for you to use more than a half-move to get to him [meaning you lose your attach option].

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Throw vs. Strike

 

if you have a much better OCV, you can do lots of damaged from called shots to places

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Throw vs. Strike

 

It's usually better to Strike. You do damage when you hit them, and the more damage you do the greater the effect of knockback. If you knock them back into a wall or some other obstacle they take damage from that too. So assuming you do KB, and with 14d6 you likely will vs most opponents, you basically get both effects with the Strike.

 

Another thing to think about is that you could do both using the Multiple Power Attack Rules, though in this case there's not really any benefit to doing so.

 

The important thing to realize however is that there is no "Throw" Combat Manuever (for a pure throw you have to foray into Martial Manuevers) -- there is the Grab Combat Manuever which allows you to Throw as a secondary element. Grab is much more functional than Strike -- Grab & Throw is just one of the options available. You can also Grab & Control, Grab & Shove, Grab & Squeeze, Grab & Block, and Grab & Redirect. These are all described in the Ultimate Martial Artist on page 145.

[largosama]

Re: Throw vs. Strike

 

It's usually better to Strike. You do damage when you hit them, and the more damage you do the greater the effect of knockback. If you knock them back into a wall or some other obstacle they take damage from that too. So assuming you do KB, and with 14d6 you likely will vs most opponents, you basically get both effects with the Strike.

 

Another thing to think about is that you could do both using the Multiple Power Attack Rules, though in this case there's not really any benefit to doing so.

 

The important thing to realize however is that there is no "Throw" Combat Manuever (for a pure throw you have to foray into Martial Manuevers) -- there is the Grab Combat Manuever which allows you to Throw as a secondary element. Grab is much more functional than Strike -- Grab & Throw is just one of the options available. You can also Grab & Control, Grab & Shove, Grab & Squeeze, Grab & Block, and Grab & Redirect. These are all described in the Ultimate Martial Artist on page 145.

 

Bear with me here as I am fairly new to the HERO system and I do not have the Ultimate MA book. Let's assume for a second that the brick doesn't have any martial maneuvers for whatever reason. Since there is no basic throw, does that mean he can't just pick up the guy next to him and toss him?

 

Could you guys run me through this hypothetical:

 

70 strength brick versus a 70 strength villain (who weighs about 350 lbs). There is an armored wall behind them (I believe it was 13 Def/7 Bod, but I could be wrong). The wall is 5" away. Ignoring PD and armor of the villain, run me through the damage capabilities of a regular strike which knocks the guy back into the wall as well as a grab and throw into the wall. Let me know if you need more info.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Throw vs. Strike

 

darn, i don't have my book with me now, but here's a basic run down, and if no one responds to correct me where i screw up or with a more complete version by the time i get home, i'll fill in the blanks then.

 

Grab i belive is a -2OCV/-2DCV manuver that lets you restrain someone. I'm not sure off the to of my head what the damage from velocity will be when they hit the wall, so i can't help any more on that front.

 

Asuming you don't have any attack powers like HA of HKA, a 70Str char does, i belive 14d6 of Normal Damage with a strike. So using SER, you have 14pts of body and 42pts of stun (assuming average hit locations). Then they roll 2d6 and subtract that from the amount of body delt with the punch (i belive, this is how knockback works, i've never played with it, only read the discription). I don't belive armor effects for purposes of KB. So if they roll 2d6 and get an average of 7. they are moved back 7" (14-7). This is far enough to move them into the wall, producing a nice "matrix-esq" effect. Then he takes velocity damage as if he was moving 7" into the wall as opposed to the distance you could throw him.

 

I belive the benifit of the throw option is that armor isn't as effective against velocity damage, but that might just be for heroic lvl games or falling damage because most of the velocity damage i've seen is falling damage. If that's true then you want to throw heavily amored villians into walls and punch them if they are lighter armed.

 

On the other hand if you grab them, they have an even odds (because you have the same str) chance of escaping you, but your buddies could beat on them while you hold them.

 

i'll get more detailed when i'm home

[Sean Waters]

Re: Throw vs. Strike

 

All situational, really.

 

Strike does damage from hitting and from KB into the wall (assuming you have any)

 

Throw just does damage from impacting the wall and (possibly, if you allow it) any KB you get from bouncing off it: not likely to be so much.

 

The wall will get damaged but not have a man sized hole in it either way. You can (potentially) avoid KB damage with a breakfall roll, but not throw damage: in either case breakfall allows you to be on your feet with no time wasted.

 

In that situation, the strike is better.

 

Not official rules, but I always thought throwing was more controllable and accurate than KB, so if you want to hurl villain A into villain B then the grab and throw option may be better, or you could just treat it as a sort of sweep attack.

 

MARTIAL throw is great; no one wants to movethrough the character with martial throw, but grab and throw is not so useful: you don't get to add velocity damage.

 

Combat penalties for grab, of course, that's a negative.

 

Finally, grab and throw does allow you to throw in ANY direction, whereas KB only allows you to go directly away in the direction you face. You might weant to grab the villain and throw them out of the window rather than into the wall (no flight, 50 stories up.....)

 

GENERALLY strike is a better option than grab and throw, but like I say, it is all situational.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Throw vs. Strike

 

I've rarely, if ever, used Grab and Throw unless I was throwing AT someone or something specific (which means a second attack maneuver, an extra phase, etc.), with the sole exception of a giant robot (NPC) which hurled characters away to slim their numbers down whle they made their way back.

 

Grab and Hold, however - THAT's a useful maneuver. As long as I have him, he has a much tougher time retaliating.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Throw vs. Strike

 

Bear with me here as I am fairly new to the HERO system and I do not have the Ultimate MA book. Let's assume for a second that the brick doesn't have any martial maneuvers for whatever reason. Since there is no basic throw, does that mean he can't just pick up the guy next to him and toss him?

 

Could you guys run me through this hypothetical:

 

70 strength brick versus a 70 strength villain (who weighs about 350 lbs). There is an armored wall behind them (I believe it was 13 Def/7 Bod, but I could be wrong). The wall is 5" away. Ignoring PD and armor of the villain, run me through the damage capabilities of a regular strike which knocks the guy back into the wall as well as a grab and throw into the wall. Let me know if you need more info.

 

Well, I dont have my books with me and dont have the time to go thru a simulation, but what Im saying is that your character isn't throwing the opponent as there is no "THROW" Combat Manuever -- he's GRABbing the opponent and opting to Throw as the secondary element rather than one of the other 5 secondary elements available to a Grab.

 

Grab is like a Swiss Army Knife -- lot's of options. Strike is like a Bowie Knife -- one option, but it's really good at doing that one thing. If you want to hurt someone, then Strike them. If you want to control them in some way, Grab them and exercise the appropriate secondary element.

 

You also need to realize the relative benefit of either is affected by the amount of STR the character has. At 20 STR, Grab & Throw is a viable option over Strike because the character is unlikely to do much KB on 4d6, and Grab & Throw is guaranteed to put the opponent on their ass (generally in their same hex), and thus at a combat disadvantage. This is particularly good if the opponent has the same SPD but a higher DEX -- throwing them allows you to strike first in the next Phase if you both go even if the opponent has a higher DEX.

 

At 70 STR though, you are extremely likely to do KB. A lot of KB. So using Strike means you get to do the Strike damage to them, then they likely go sailing back into whatever you were thinking about throwing them into anyway, and take damage from that too. Much more efficient.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Throw vs. Strike

 

Ok, time for the big breakdown of what will happen...

 

Strike - You do 14d6 Normal Damage, he roles 2d6 and subtracts that from the body. Say we use averages (a d6 averages a roll of 3.5), you do 14 Body/49Stun from the hit. Then on average he rolls a 7, and subtracts 1 from your KB because of his 2x mass (350kg, being just short of 4x), and goes 6" into a wall 5" away, which has 13Def/7Body, being more than the inches of Knockback you are doing (Body +Def), so he stops at the wall taking 6d6 Normal damage, this time I'm using average of the dice, 6 Body/21 Stun against his total PD. and is prone.

 

End Result -> 1 attack of (Average) 14 Body/49 Stun against his defenses, another attack of 7 Body/ 21 Stun against defenses and Prone.

 

Grab - -1OCV, -2DCV, and he can't be significantly bigger than you (but i'm assuming you're both about human sized). Then he gets a casual STR roll to escape, which will probably fail, due to your equal STR.

 

From there The Basic Book gives you the option of Grab or Squeeze (pg 386)

 

Squeeze - you attack with your STR, doing 14d6 of damage against his defenses (not combat luck) and hold two of his limbs. Every following turn you must make an attack roll to hit him at 1/2 DCV, or he doesn't take any damage.

 

Throw - You do 14d6 of regular Str Damage on Release, if it's the same turn, then you don't make an attack roll, but if it is on a subsequent turn, you must make an attack roll or he is not thrown, not grabbed and not hurt. You need 19Str to pick him up (approximatly, the GM might rule 20), which gives 51 (50) STR left over for the throwing (pg 35). This is a standing throw of 20", into a wall 5" away. Then we skip to page 437. The Optional Velocity Damage System comes into play, you are throwing (assuming a standing throw) him 20" x12 240" of velocity per turn. Lets say for kicks the Villian is Unbalanced and not Aerodynamic (which happens) your Velocity Factor is -2, for a total of 6.

 

He hits the wall and takes 7d6 of damage (half your str) + 6d6 of velocity damage, for a total of 13d6.

 

End Result -> Sqeeze - 14 Body/49 Stun, no knock back, he's not prone, but is restrained. Useful if you have a higher speed.

 

End Result -> Throw - One attack at 14 Body/49 Stun, another at 13 Body/46 Stun. And he's prone. So in all respects, grab and throw seems like the best option.

 

 

I'm not sure if you get the damage from STR on release and then again halved upon hitting the wall, that might be where i made a mistake if i made one.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Throw vs. Strike

 

As others have said, strike is better if you just want to do damage to the target, but if you want to do something else, it might not be the best tactic.

 

The way throwing someone works (without martial arts), is that you need to get a hold of the target. You do this with the Grab maneuver. Onced successfully grabbed (made attack roll and defeated the target in a STR BODY vs STR BODY roll), you may crush or throw the target. Crushing might be good if the target is hard to hit, and you'll just do damage every Phase automatically until he escapes the grab. Throwing might be good if you just want to put him far away from you, or there is something more dangerous than you nearby (like an open window with a 50 story drop, or big clanking machine with gnarly gears poking out). Throwing is also useful if you want to use what you've grabbed as a projectile to hurt something else. This works best against inanimate objects though, as people are difficult to aim when throwing (-4 OCV).

 

With a normal punch/strike, you just do more damage. You'll do your STR damage, and likely KB with that much STR, and then the target will take the KB damage when he hits one of those walls.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Throw vs. Strike

 

My strategy with a big strong brick (assuming I have an HA) is usually to Grab if they are a high-CV character at 1/2 DCV or if they are a low-CV character with high defenses and my teammates have attacks that can damage; if I Grab, I almost always Squeeze and continue to do so; otherwise, I use Strike, or some other useful non-Grab maneuver.

 

This is discounting interesting situations such as them having Foci, there being an advantageous place to throw them (or knock them back), not wanting them to be able to get away, etc.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Throw vs. Strike

 

yeah, if you can throw them out windows or something where the falling might splat them, very useful

[Silbeg]

Re: Throw vs. Strike

 

Ok, time for the big breakdown of what will happen...

 

Strike - You do 14d6 Normal Damage, he roles 2d6 and subtracts that from the body. Say we use averages (a d6 averages a roll of 3.5), you do 14 Body/49Stun from the hit. Then on average he rolls a 7, and subtracts 1 from your KB because of his 2x mass (350kg, being just short of 4x), and goes 6" into a wall 5" away, which has 13Def/7Body, being more than the inches of Knockback you are doing (Body +Def), so he stops at the wall taking 6d6 Normal damage, this time I'm using average of the dice, 6 Body/21 Stun against his total PD. and is prone.

 

End Result -> 1 attack of (Average) 14 Body/49 Stun against his defenses, another attack of 7 Body/ 21 Stun against defenses and Prone.

 

Close, but mass doesn't give KBR by itself, unless the character had purchased it (assume he hadn't).

 

Also, the presence of KBR does not reduce damage received from knockback.

 

Thus, the KB does 7 BODY, 24 STUN (rounding up). This is regardless of whether he has -1" KBR.

Throw - You do 14d6 of regular Str Damage on Release, if it's the same turn, then you don't make an attack roll, but if it is on a subsequent turn, you must make an attack roll or he is not thrown, not grabbed and not hurt. You need 19Str to pick him up (approximatly, the GM might rule 20), which gives 51 (50) STR left over for the throwing (pg 35). This is a standing throw of 20", into a wall 5" away. Then we skip to page 437. The Optional Velocity Damage System comes into play, you are throwing (assuming a standing throw) him 20" x12 240" of velocity per turn. Lets say for kicks the Villian is Unbalanced and not Aerodynamic (which happens) your Velocity Factor is -2, for a total of 6.

 

He hits the wall and takes 7d6 of damage (half your str) + 6d6 of velocity damage, for a total of 13d6.

Ok, I am not sure how you are figuring this damage, or whythe "Optional Velocity Damage System" comes into play. Unless I am wrong, the throw damage is exactly equal to your STR damage, per the "grab and throw" rules. However, this may be better described in the Ultimate Martial Artist, (and perhaps The Ultimate Brick), but...

 

 

Nice analysis, though

[largosama]

Re: Throw vs. Strike

 

Just to make sure... When someone is grabbed, they get an immediate chance to break out, right? I think I recall reading that it's based on casual strength... is that correct?

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Throw vs. Strike

 

yes

[Dust Raven]

Re: Throw vs. Strike

 

Just to make sure... When someone is grabbed' date=' they get an immediate chance to break out, right? I think I recall reading that it's based on casual strength... is that correct?[/quote']

 

Yes. Which is why my more powerful bricks has +60 STR Reduced Endurance (0 END, +1/2), Only for Casual STR (-2), No Figured Characteristics -1/2) for 26 points. That way he can use his "full" STR to shrug off grabs and walk through walls (cheeper than tunnelling this way).

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Throw vs. Strike

 

Yes. Which is why my more powerful bricks has +60 STR Reduced Endurance (0 END' date=' +1/2), Only for Casual STR (-2), No Figured Characteristics -1/2) for 26 points. That way he can use his "full" STR to shrug off grabs and walk through walls (cheeper than tunnelling this way).[/quote']

 

pure genius!

[Dust Raven]

Re: Throw vs. Strike

 

pure genius!

 

LOL... most GMs call it cheating

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Throw vs. Strike

 

and the fine line between the two is determined by the GM