Mental Powers

[zornwil]

Re: Mental Powers

 

Thanks, except perhaps you could have actually said it better in that the end of my sentence sort of falls off there, though the intent is at least clear.

 

On the issues, real or perceived, with Regen, IC, and Healing, I think at least it's a more nuanced argument in that I can't fundamentally fault the decisions made there, even if I think there were some mistakes in those. At least they are an attempt at consistency and using the constructs in place, so while I can argue against them it really does come more down to a personal taste factor in the trade-off in the rules between consistency and efficiency and balance.

[caris]

Re: Mental Powers

 

Making the situation worse' date=' I have yet to see an example of a published Hero character which indicates the character's class of mind, or has an adder to affect multiple classes of mind. I haven't read a lot of 5e source material, but I would think we'd have a great example of a character whose concept and SFX demanded such adders, and they were included, if this rule were so seminal to the core system.[/quote']

 

Menton has spent +20 on most of his powers so he can influence Human, Animal and Alien. Slug also has spent +10 to use his Ego Blast on Alien and Human. Both of them are in CKC.

[zornwil]

Re: Mental Powers

 

Oh, sure, be a smart guy..

 

Nice catch, caris.

[caris]

Re: Mental Powers

 

Ok, I wanted to wait until I had waded through the whole thread before weighing in.

 

Personally, I like the Classes of Mind conceptually, and have no problem with them being in the main book. I would have preferred them listed as an optional rule (and there are many optional rules in the main book), and I would have preferred them to have a better write up. Those are preferrences only.

 

Most of the arguements against it have not been convincing to me, and I'd like to discuss why they are not so meaningful to me.

 

First: "The default rules assume that all four classes of mind would be of equal utility across all genres, setting, and campaigns, when obviously they wouldn't be."/"This gives some character concepts something for nothing."/"Some character's are paying too much for the actual utility of the power."

 

Yeah, the rules make that equally false assumption about every power that it assigns the same value to. A hearing group flash is assumed to be as equally useful as a radio group flash across all genres. That is obviously false, too. Yet, I am not hearing that Flash should be defaulted to affecting all senses and limitations should be used to create a sight flash. Fred wants to buy up his swimming for your military science fiction game which is going to spend all of board ships and in outer space, without a lot of swimming being important, perhaps you should consider reducing the cost of swimming for this game, or discourage Fred? Hey, look Bob built and an Atlantean and set his default environment to water, hmm this is an aquatic game and I was making everyone else dependent on their lifesupport gear. I better make sure that enough action occurs in non-aquatic environments so that Bob has to use dry land gear and/or is excluded from as much important action because of this as the other PC are.

 

We go into this, knowing that the rules had to assign some arbitrary values to the costs of things that some stuff has to be adjusted for by the GM. If a player brings in a concept that justifies the use of differing class of minds from the rest of the PCs, what is so tough about making sure that enough mentalist, who default to that class show up to balance the advantage that he gets from not being affected by the once who could affect the rest of the PCs? Low and behold it is no longer something for nothing. Animals are only less useful than humans if the GM makes them that way. I believe a number of people have been identified from black and white photographs and surveilance cameras. (If you want to make a dog useless as a witness you don't use the fact that it is color blind. You use that smell is the primary sense, and it just doesn't remember enough about what he looks like, just as you really don't necessarily remember a subtle perfume on some one.) Sometimes, you just have to tell players that certain powers are going to be useless in your campaign, and either tell them not to buy it or let them have it for free. "I'm sorry Bob, but this is a gritty gang buster campaign there are no ghost in it, and so your psychic character with Detect: Ghosts just isn't going to work. Now, spiritualism was very popular in the 1920, and one of the con artist mediums might work as a pc."

 

Second: "I can do it simpler with limitations and/or building the characters with lots of mental defense, and high Egos."

 

OK, I'm now picturing a fantasy world where humaniod telepaths can't affect animals, and all animals have an EGO of +30 only vs. humaniod telepathy. Now I have to tell all my players that an animals they build as Followers, Summons, or possibly even Duplicates and Multiforms have to include that. Of course, maybe I want special Humaniod telepaths that can affect animals but not humans so now, how do I reprice that limiter? Hmmm... hat about a human who can affect both animals and humans how am I going to price him out?

 

It isn't really "easier" in the way that 2+2 is easier than 256947/368. It is "easier" in that some people will find one way more intuitive and/or logical to work with than the other. They are pretty much doing the same thing, as I believe has been noted all the classes of mind really does is slap a "-0 only affects group X" Limitation on the Mental Powers.

 

Personally, this fits in better with my game design philosophy, because I've always felt the best way to build immunities into your game, if you want them there in the first place (and my talking like an immunity to fire or cold or magic, not nothing can hurt me), is to put limitations on the attack powers, rather than trying to mess with all the annoying construction to create it with defenses or Desolid. Of course, keep in mind that if I were running a Galactic Champions campaign, I'd be restructioning Life Support so that there is a level of Safe Environments: Intense Heat and Intense Radiation that would enable a character to be in the hottest part of a super nova without a problem, and it would also trigger the mandatory limitation on all radiation/heat/fire attacks rendering them useless against a PC with that version of LS. I find it simpler.

 

Third: "It is bringing too much SFX into the rules."

 

This one can't really be argued with, since it is really a statement of personal preference. For me, it isn't bringing too much. Though, I would point out there is more than just CoM and PD/ED that bring in this kind of SFX issue.

 

Fourth: "Most genre source materials don't work this way."

 

This one is another debatable one. Are Sentinels Automatons, Machine Class, or just have tons of Mental Defense. They usually are protrayed as being immune to things like Xavier's telepathy and Master Mind's illusions. Luxwana Troi (the least limited mentalist that you saw regularly in Star Trek) couldn't read Data, Ferengi or Changlings. This either could have been done either as a limitation on Luxwana's telepathy or Invisibility to the Mental Sense Group bought by those groups (Presumably, both Lore and Lal (yes?) would have that ability, too.). In Babalon 5, I believe both Lyta and Talia made a point that they were unusual amoung human telepaths, because they didn't mind scanning non-humans, that may have been a common psych lim amoung human telepaths, rather than a limitation on their powers. I could keep going discussing other things, but in most cases either the sample of the world we see is too small to get a good feel or things are protrayed inconsistently over the course of several samples.

 

Final(for now): "This is Steve imposing his house rules on the game system."

 

Yeah, so what? Really, all the rules to an extent are rules that Steve liked enough to think that they should be in the core book. Things are also going to be set up to reflect the way that Steve likes to play. I could list and debate all the rules that I think that shouldn't be in there, but most of them I'm just going to ignore, but I'm not going to complaign that Steve put something in, because he liked it. I'll discuss other reason why I dislike it, but I won't include that one. 5E, it could pretty much be assumed that Steve and Darrin would color the core rules to reflect their preferences in gaming, why else would they choose to buy the rights to Hero System, except to do it the way that they concieve it should be?

[caris]

Re: Mental Powers

 

Oh, sure, be a smart guy..

 

Nice catch, caris.

 

Waaayyyy earlier in the thread some one asked about Slug, so I looked him up. At the same time I checked Mentalla and Menton, and spot checked members of PSI. I didn't bother with Cybermind, since he is specifically meant to be one of those that can read a computer's mind. I just now am checking Esper, and she spent the extra 10 for Human and Alien. What I'm seeing a lack of is anything with the whole "Physical Limitation: Affected as Class of Mind X and as well as Y," I could buy it's ommission being a typo on Mechanon, but some of these other characters, like Fenris or Menagerie could have benefitted from it.

[zornwil]

Re: Mental Powers

 

You're still wrong about your longer post (I just saw it, I missed it before).

 

 

 

Still, at the risk of going around the mulberry bush, I disagree it's any easier to have this arbitrary animal/alien/human than to have left as is, at least without the preferences as you stated them at the outset of your post, and I think those are pivotal, not to be brushed aside. I would have no or at least little problem with it if it were presented along the lines you indicated. Anyway, I don't think it's so much the "are they equal" issue as to the delineation, but the complications of the implied levels of equal utility when even that is in grave question, and in fact a legitimate source of acrimony is where powers indeed do NOT match in the points they are assigned. But, hey, I'm just restating some essentials of my position, and I fear the circle is becoming complete...

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Mental Powers

 

Ok, I wanted to wait until I had waded through the whole thread before weighing in.

......

 

Excellent post all around.

Sums up my veiws on the subject better tjan I've had the motivation to attempt.

Repped.

[caris]

Re: Mental Powers

 

You're still wrong about your longer post (I just saw it, I missed it before).

 

 

 

Still, at the risk of going around the mulberry bush, I disagree it's any easier to have this arbitrary animal/alien/human than to have left as is, at least without the preferences as you stated them at the outset of your post, and I think those are pivotal, not to be brushed aside. I would have no or at least little problem with it if it were presented along the lines you indicated. Anyway, I don't think it's so much the "are they equal" issue as to the delineation, but the complications of the implied levels of equal utility when even that is in grave question, and in fact a legitimate source of acrimony is where powers indeed do NOT match in the points they are assigned. But, hey, I'm just restating some essentials of my position, and I fear the circle is becoming complete...

 

IIRC, I said it was only as easy if you have any desire to produce the effect of Mentalists not being able to affect all types of mind equally. In this case I'm talking about in terms of implenting the two different ways of handling the situation Limiting the Mental Powers not to affect every mind in the game, or giving whole groups huge amounts of Ego/Mental Defense are equally complicated for execution in a very general sense of the word. For me, the universal Lim on Mental Powers is more intuitive and easier to work with. Obviously, there are others on this thread that find the idea of using huge amounts of Ego/Mental Defense more intuitive and easier to work with.

 

I will say, that compared to leaving the idea out completely rather than including it, that including it and ignoring it if you do not need it is easier than trying to come up with it on your own. This is basically a form of "limited invulnerability," in the many threads on that topic, how often have you seen anyone other than myself suggest the idea of putting a limitation on all powers of that type to simmulate the ability? (e.g. If you want to have fire elementals immune to fire you tell all PCs that they have to put a "-x/y (where x and y my be equal or both equal 0) not vs. Fire Elementals" on all of their fire powers.) Heck, the general response that I get to the idea, when I get a response (which isn't that often), is a kind of "why would anyone do that?"

 

I'm going to say that if a PC is informed that a power that they wish to purchase is not going to be worth the points they spend on it, when the GM knows will not be worth the full cost in that game, it is the GMs fault and not a broken mechanic. Heck, I'll go further to say that a GM should allow a character to respend points on anything that has proven in the course of his game to not to be equal to the same amount of points spent by other PCs. If a PC is happy with the situation, than there is no real issue, of course.

[zornwil]

Re: Mental Powers

 

But limited invulnerability is a different issue and bringing this up begs, "so how is Class of Minds applicable otherwise to create the same effect?" Or is it simply an orphan mechanic?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mental Powers

 

Ok' date=' I wanted to wait until I had waded through the whole thread before weighing in.[/quote']

 

Excellent summation overall, by the way.

 

Personally' date=' I like the Classes of Mind conceptually, and have no problem with them being in the main book. I would have preferred them listed as an optional rule (and there are many optional rules in the main book), and I would have preferred them to have a better write up. Those are preferrences only.[/quote']

 

This is a key pooint - whether one likes thios conceptually factors heavily into "pro" or "con". However, the fact that this is a concept-based decision means, to me, that it should not be a default rule under the toolkit, but an optional approach provided, either in the core rules or a "rules option" book. I favour the latter because I don't see the core rules having the space to do this justice, nor the compelling need to do so.

 

Based on your comments, we agree this should be an optional rule. We would exercise our options differently, given your preference for the concept.

 

First: "The default rules assume that all four classes of mind would be of equal utility across all genres, setting, and campaigns, when obviously they wouldn't be."/"This gives some character concepts something for nothing."/"Some character's are paying too much for the actual utility of the power."

 

Yeah, the rules make that equally false assumption about every power that it assigns the same value to. A hearing group flash is assumed to be as equally useful as a radio group flash across all genres. That is obviously false, too. Yet, I am not hearing that Flash should be defaulted to affecting all senses and limitations should be used to create a sight flash. Fred wants to buy up his swimming for your military science fiction game which is going to spend all of board ships and in outer space, without a lot of swimming being important, perhaps you should consider reducing the cost of swimming for this game, or discourage Fred? Hey, look Bob built and an Atlantean and set his default environment to water, hmm this is an aquatic game and I was making everyone else dependent on their lifesupport gear. I better make sure that enough action occurs in non-aquatic environments so that Bob has to use dry land gear and/or is excluded from as much important action because of this as the other PC are.

 

This is all true as far as it goes. However, I believe we can generally agree on what "radio" is, and the setting will give me a pretty good idea how common "radio" will be. I can then decide whether to spend the points on a Radio flash. On the other hand, given the significant discrepancy of "what's an alien" in this thread, I can't make that decision without several dice of Telepathy on my GM (and even then, I don't know whether GM's and players a re a separate species, so I don't know whether I need the adder ).

 

We go into this' date=' knowing that the rules had to assign some arbitrary values to the costs of things that some stuff has to be adjusted for by the GM. If a player brings in a concept that justifies the use of differing class of minds from the rest of the PCs, what is so tough about making sure that enough mentalist, who default to that class show up to balance the advantage that he gets from not being affected by the once who could affect the rest of the PCs? Low and behold it is no longer something for nothing.[/quote']

 

What prevents it? Again, depends on concepts. If we establish up front that "alien" means "very alien", and they are very rare, suddenly making them common because a PC comes from a background which is "very rare" robs the game of some of its integrity.

 

Animals are only less useful than humans if the GM makes them that way. I believe a number of people have been identified from black and white photographs and surveilance cameras. (If you want to make a dog useless as a witness you don't use the fact that it is color blind. You use that smell is the primary sense' date=' and it just doesn't remember enough about what he looks like, just as you really don't necessarily remember a subtle perfume on some one.) Sometimes, you just have to tell players that certain powers are going to be useless in your campaign, and either tell them not to buy it or let them have it for free. "I'm sorry Bob, but this is a gritty gang buster campaign there are no ghost in it, and so your psychic character with Detect: Ghosts just isn't going to work. Now, spiritualism was very popular in the 1920, and one of the con artist mediums might work as a pc."[/quote']

 

In all cases, it's easier to deal with powers that will be useless. "Uhhh...Flash vs Radar probably won't come up much in our Knights of King Arthur game..." than something which will sometimes be useless, other times not. "The Aliens walk among us!" "Didn't you tell me the Aliens adder wouldn't be of much use in this game?"

 

Second: "I can do it simpler with limitations and/or building the characters with lots of mental defense, and high Egos."

 

OK, I'm now picturing a fantasy world where humaniod telepaths can't affect animals, and all animals have an EGO of +30 only vs. humaniod telepathy. Now I have to tell all my players that an animals they build as Followers, Summons, or possibly even Duplicates and Multiforms have to include that. Of course, maybe I want special Humaniod telepaths that can affect animals but not humans so now, how do I reprice that limiter? Hmmm... what about a human who can affect both animals and humans how am I going to price him out?

 

In such a game world, Classes of Mind become useful, hence my belief it should remain as an optional rule. The statement of using defenses and egos was applied primarily to the argument that "aliens are really very rare, with minds completely separate from Human class".

 

That said, why wouldn't the ability to reduce that extra Ego by 30 be worth about 10 points, so you just use the same adder. Now WizBang the Summoner cannot now demolish Ezron the Enchanter by summoning animals which get to be immune to Ezron's enchantments without raising their cost in the slightest?

 

It isn't really "easier" in the way that 2+2 is easier than 256947/368. It is "easier" in that some people will find one way more intuitive and/or logical to work with than the other. They are pretty much doing the same thing' date=' as I believe has been noted all the classes of mind really does is slap a "-0 only affects group X" Limitation on the Mental Powers.[/quote']

 

There's another easy solution to your fantasy world without making Classes of Mind a default (and thus without requiring the question of whether dwarves, elves, dragons, unicorns, trolls, giants, orcs, half orcs, etc. etc. etc. fall into Alien class of minds or not). "In this world, all Mental Powers have the default -0 limitation that animals get an automatic 30 points of Mental Defense against them. You can pay for an adder/advantage of +X to eliminate this restriction. Animals have the same limitation on applying their mental powers to non-animals, and the same cost for its elimination."

 

And, if I want a power that doesn't affect animals in a setting that doesn't use this option, I simply get the limitation the GM feels appropriate given how much this will limit my power in his game world.

 

Personally' date=' this fits in better with my game design philosophy, because I've always felt the best way to build immunities into your game, if you want them there in the first place (and my talking like an immunity to fire or cold or magic, not nothing can hurt me), is to put limitations on the attack powers, rather than trying to mess with all the annoying construction to create it with defenses or Desolid. Of course, keep in mind that if I were running a Galactic Champions campaign, I'd be restructioning Life Support so that there is a level of Safe Environments: Intense Heat and Intense Radiation that would enable a character to be in the hottest part of a super nova without a problem, and it would also trigger the mandatory limitation on all radiation/heat/fire attacks rendering them useless against a PC with that version of LS. I find it simpler.[/quote']

 

I agree that's a more elegant way to build Immunities in a given campaign setting. Providing such an approach would, in my view, be far superior to the default of "Classes of Mind", as it would:

 

- clearly set the structure as an optional rule, not a default

 

- clearly indicate this is customized for specific games, not a cookie cutter default

 

- clearly indicate its applicability to powers outside the Mental Powers sphere

 

- suggest imposing a cost for such immunity (your Tiers of Life Support) example, rather than making it a piint-free function oif background, which

 

- makes the immunity available to player characters where supported by a concept appropriate to the game setting.

 

Classes of Minds, as presently written, accomplishes none of the goals.

 

Third: "It is bringing too much SFX into the rules."

 

This one can't really be argued with, since it is really a statement of personal preference. For me, it isn't bringing too much. Though, I would point out there is more than just CoM and PD/ED that bring in this kind of SFX issue.

 

Player 1, you want to be more resistant to physical attacks than to energy attacks? No problem - buy more PD. That's what points are for!

 

Player 2, you want to be more resistant to fire than other forms of energy? No problem - buy a defense power limited to "Fire only". That's what points are for!

 

Player 3, you want to Drain fire-based powers? No problem! There's a suite of advantages for that - buy the appropriate advantage. That's what points are for!

 

Player 4, you want to be immune to most mental attacks due to your non-human brain? No problem - you're an "alien mind" so you get immunity for free.

 

One of these is not like the others...

 

What's that? Players 1, 2 and 3 are aliens from outer space, and that's why they have their powers? No problem! Every NPC mentalist will buy "Affects Alien Class of Mind. [Either Player 4 gets an advantage for free, or he gets no advantage at all.]

 

Fourth: "Most genre source materials don't work this way."

 

This one is another debatable one. Are Sentinels Automatons, Machine Class, or just have tons of Mental Defense. They usually are protrayed as being immune to things like Xavier's telepathy and Master Mind's illusions. Luxwana Troi (the least limited mentalist that you saw regularly in Star Trek) couldn't read Data, Ferengi or Changlings. This either could have been done either as a limitation on Luxwana's telepathy or Invisibility to the Mental Sense Group bought by those groups (Presumably, both Lore and Lal (yes?) would have that ability, too.). In Babalon 5, I believe both Lyta and Talia made a point that they were unusual amoung human telepaths, because they didn't mind scanning non-humans, that may have been a common psych lim amoung human telepaths, rather than a limitation on their powers. I could keep going discussing other things, but in most cases either the sample of the world we see is too small to get a good feel or things are protrayed inconsistently over the course of several samples.

 

Certainly debateable. The point is, however, that there are easy definitions that don't require Classes of Mind to make it work.

 

- Sentinels likely are automotons.

 

- In Star Trek, either Luxwana should be able to read Ferengi and Changelings, or she should not be able to read other alien species (like humans...). Alternatively, maybe every alien species is a separate class of mind, but that makes an efective mental power cost a fortune in the game setting. [Hmmm...do I want do buy 4d6 Telepathy and 10 "Affects Alien" adders, or do I want 12 Overall levels instead...] Deanna Troi is half human, half betazed. Should her default be humans, aliens, both or neither? And Data? Well, if he's a machine class mind, he can't be a player character, can he?

 

And note how surprised the telepaths are that no one can read a Changeling!

 

- In Babylon 5, there were no examples of incapability of affecting other species. The Minbari were quite effective against Shadows - the only thing that allowed any chance against them. The Narn considered themselves disadvantaged against the other races because they had no telepaths - would telepaths that can't read Narn minds be an advantage of any significance?

 

As you say, debateable. But you have already set out a number of other means to achieving this end, above, which are more flexible, and more in the spirit of "advantages cost points", than the Classes of Mind structure itself. Especially (to say it again) as a core rule.

 

Final(for now): "This is Steve imposing his house rules on the game system."

 

Yeah, so what? Really, all the rules to an extent are rules that Steve liked enough to think that they should be in the core book. Things are also going to be set up to reflect the way that Steve likes to play. I could list and debate all the rules that I think that shouldn't be in there, but most of them I'm just going to ignore, but I'm not going to complaign that Steve put something in, because he liked it. I'll discuss other reason why I dislike it, but I won't include that one. 5E, it could pretty much be assumed that Steve and Darrin would color the core rules to reflect their preferences in gaming, why else would they choose to buy the rights to Hero System, except to do it the way that they concieve it should be?

 

There's no question that the writer of any game system is easily accused of rewriting them to be his own "house rules". I suspect a lot of game systems start out as the writer's own house rules anyway. As well, if we had Classes of Minds from 1e onwards. those of us who don't favour them would just be arguing for our own house rules, wouldn't we?

 

I think this one attracts the accusation more than most because the system got along fine without Classes of Minds for a long time, and because they were Steve's invention in 4e Ultimate Mentalist. But whether they were Steve's house rules or not, the real issue is "do they belong as a core rule, an optional rule, or not at all". The appropriateness of the rule, not its source, is the real issue.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mental Powers

 

But limited invulnerability is a different issue and bringing this up begs' date=' "so how is Class of Minds applicable otherwise to create the same effect?" Or is it simply an orphan mechanic?[/quote']

 

If absolute invulnerability is an effect the game needs, it should have a mechanic that goers beyond mental powers. If it is not needed, then why do we have it for mental powers? And, in either case, it should not be a free ability gained based solely on character background.

 

Would you allow me a character who's invulnerable to physical attacks because he's made of water, then allow a +10 adder to allow physical attacks to affect the "water class" of bodies?

 

At least we know, from reality, that a jackhammer affects concrete, but not water. We have no means of objectively assessing whether Telepathy is more or less effective within the Telepath's own species.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mental Powers

 

OK, here's an idea. Probably not much help, but an idea, nonetheless. I haven't read the whole thread, so apologies if it has come up already.

 

This is more of a way of thinking about it than anything else. My take on it, use it if you will. All minds capable of being called minds work, at some level, in the same way. Things without minds are either not susceptible to mental powers or...well, see below.

 

Imagine that the ability to use (say) mind control is akin to the ability to use the persuasion skill. Anyone with a voice can make a persuade attempt, but in order to actually succeed you would normally, amongst other things, have to be able to speak the language of the person you are trying to influence.

 

So, the way I'd be inclined to look at it is that if you have mental powers they generally only work for people who can understand you normally, if you were talking to them. All human language is related so you could expand the class to all humans with a +10 point adder. (This is an additional cost, of course - you may decide all human speech is sufficiently linked you don't need to have an adder.) You can decide to have your mental powers and normal speech work differently (for example someonewho understands animals but not humans)

 

Animals think in a different way, with far less emphasis on grammatical construct and descriptive vocabulary and far more on raw imagery. Aliens may (or may not) think in a different way again. Machines certainly do.

 

The ability to mentally project doesn't stop if you are trying to comminicate with a mind that doesn't understand you: basically it would be the equivalent of shouting at foreigners. Actually doing anything useful though is going to be difficult. You might be able to still project 'basics' like fear or friendship, you may (by some sort of mental charades) even get a simple command across, so your mind control can be partially effective against different classes of mind. Of course some minds might not even use the same emotion sets: projecting fear into an AI might have no real effect, or an unexpected one - a machine might have few if any parallel emotions - project it into an animal though, and you'll get an expected response.

 

When you pay for a new type of access you are in fact pating for a new 'language set' for that type of mind (an alien who can speak English may still have an alien mind, but it may be easier to communicate with than another memeber of his species who doesn't speak an Earth language.

 

This leads to a couple of ideas.

 

1. You can buy 'classes of mind' even if you don't have mental powers - so that other classes of mind can communicate with you.

 

2. Mental powers work against any mind - IF that form of communication/control/attack functions for that mind BUT there will be some attenuation of the level of power or utility (or both). There is something fundamental that links every mind in the 'verse. Utterly 'alien' consciousnesses may be a different kettle of fish.

 

3. You don't get 'mental power immunity' by being an intelligent robot or alien. You may pick up some resistances, but these will maninly have to be role played out.

 

4. Mental defences for a class of minds that you haven't got should be bought at a -1 limitation. It is easy enough to avoid being mind controlled by a computer, harder to be mind controlled by another human. Every creature is assumed to have the mental group for their own type even if their mental powers primarily effect another type.

 

5. Ego attack will probably have most 'general applicability', and effect realitively broad groups: it is basically force not finesse.

 

6. Telepathy and mind control can still work but there are likely to be translation difficulties - more so for complex ideas.

 

7. Mind Scan probably gets a bonus for unusual mind types - it is easy enough to detect aliens in a human population BUT a real penalty in telling them apart!

 

8. Things without minds can generally not be effected, or not in a useful way. To tie it into the original question, if something doesn't know it is a cart, it can't radiate any detectable cartness. You can't order a wristwatch to stop as it doesn't understand the words. You can't read a book with telepathy: the words do not know what they are and can not communicate meaning. You could run a world when everything is a little bit aware and alive (like The Land from the Thomas Covenant novels) in which case everything would be susceptible to mental powers BUT don't forget that you can only mind control things to do what they can do: you can't control a normal human to fly, why should you be able to mind control a car to start up and drive around on its own? (well, actually some cars practically can so....)

 

9. That's all I can think of for now.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Mental Powers

 

good point TRL which is why I always point to the -3 EOCV -10 effect (-5 Ego Blast) rules in 5e and 5er.

 

That gives exactly what you are suggesting. Only I took two lines.

 

Hawksmoor

[Dust Raven]

Re: Mental Powers

 

Yes' date=' that WAS true until we broke Mental into Alien, Animal, Human...[/quote']

 

Mental Powers were seperated, not Mental Defense.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Mental Powers

 

Trying it once more: To me, the differentiation is not the SFX "machine/non-machine". That would differentiate Mechanon from Firewing and Witchcraft. It is the purely mechanical "construct with an Ego score and free will/construct lacking an Ego score and free will". A separate mechanic is needed to be able to apply mental powers (or something similar) to constructs like computers and automaton robots, which lack the Ego score used to determine both whether a mental power hits and, in most cases, whether and how effective it is.

 

Because the mechanics of Mechanon and a computer are different (one has Ego and the other does not) a power which can control Mechanon (Mind COntrol) cannot be applied, mechanically, to the computer (which has no Ego stat). Thus, separate mechanics are needed to have a power which permits a character to exert his will on a computer. The computer differs from Witchcraft, Mechanon and Firewing on a "rules mechanics" level. As a result, a different rules mechanic is needed for a power that controls a computer (or reads its "mind", or implants illusions). Despite having very different backgrounds (special effects), Firewing, Mechanon and Wiotchcraft are, "rules mechanically", not different.l

 

[insert lit up lightbulb icon]

 

Ah-ha! We have vastly different impressions on how Mental Powers work and are applied in general... At leat now I understand yours and why you feel the way you do. I won't begrudge you anymore on it. If I thought to way you did, I'd come to your conclusion as well. I just happen not to think that way.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Mental Powers

 

Excellent post all around.

Sums up my veiws on the subject better tjan I've had the motivation to attempt.

Repped.

 

Ditto.

[zornwil]

Re: Mental Powers

 

Mental Powers were seperated' date=' not Mental Defense.[/quote']

I don't mean this to sound as it might, but yes, and so what? I don't see a distinction by much.

[zornwil]

Re: Mental Powers

 

[insert lit up lightbulb icon]

 

Ah-ha! We have vastly different impressions on how Mental Powers work and are applied in general... At leat now I understand yours and why you feel the way you do. I won't begrudge you anymore on it. If I thought to way you did, I'd come to your conclusion as well. I just happen not to think that way.

So what is your take on it? I understand Hugh's, and I presume by your answer I don't understand yours. Hugh's is mechanical and imbues SFX only to the degree we realistically know that machines and brain-organisms are different. There's no other presumption - I think - to how mental abilities work, aside from the system-instructed "mental powers work against EGO" and the added rule over time re machines and INT (IIRC, this was suggested/in place before but not the core rules).

 

As a side note, are single-cell and other undifferentiated non-brain life-forms "Animals" by Class of Mind? I'd think they're more Alien or in a Plant group. I wonder. What is a "Limited Class of Mind", +5? Is Plant a Limited CLass of Mind? Or a Limitation to a power with Class of Mind applied as "Animal"? I still don't see any reduced complexity to the structure except for dealing with the mechanics of lacking EGO.

[caris]

Re: Mental Powers

 

But limited invulnerability is a different issue and bringing this up begs' date=' "so how is Class of Minds applicable otherwise to create the same effect?" Or is it simply an orphan mechanic?[/quote']

 

I was pointing out how effectively, what the classes of mind are doing is applying a -0 Lim "Only vs. Class of Mind X." This is effectively a limited form of invulnerability. In particular, I was waxing how this is my preferred way of creating an invulnerability by defining it in the way an attack power works.

 

In my dream version of the rules, somewhere in the campaign design section there would be a pretty good write up of how to incorporate invulnerablity into a campaign by the application of universal Limitation on all powers of a certain special effect, if you want to have limited invulnerabilities in you campaign.

[caris]

Re: Mental Powers

 

Excellent summation overall' date=' by the way.[/quote']

 

Thank you

 

This is a key pooint - whether one likes thios conceptually factors heavily into "pro" or "con". However' date=' the fact that this is a concept-based decision means, to me, that it should not be a default rule under the toolkit, but an optional approach provided, either in the core rules or a "rules option" book. I favour the latter because I don't see the core rules having the space to do this justice, nor the compelling need to do so. [/quote']

 

I’m afraid that you are misunderstanding my use of the word “concept†in the context of my post. I’m saying that I like what I see as the base idea of the construct, not necessarily the specific implementation that is this particular construct. I like the ability to take a group of powers, whether defined by mechanic as here with Mental Powers or by SFX as is the case with poisons and diseases.

 

This is all true as far as it goes. However' date=' I believe we can generally agree on what "radio" is, and the setting will give me a pretty good idea how common "radio" will be. I can then decide whether to spend the points on a Radio flash. On the other hand, given the significant discrepancy of "what's an alien" in this thread, I can't make that decision without several dice of Telepathy on my GM (and even then, I don't know whether GM's and players a re a separate species, so I don't know whether I need the adder ). [/quote']

 

Yeah, well, I thought that infrared vision was pretty clear cut, too, until I had player hand me a character sheet with “Lifesight†on it, and said he just renamed and redid the SFX on infrared vision. On the other hand can we agree on what a “fair†amount of a restriction on a character who is built with water breathing as their default environment, when all the other characters were built with air as their default? I actually without asking my GM do not know how much more common active sonar is or is not than radar in any campaign where both powers are a reasonable build for the setting, because it is a matter of GM preference. Of course, there is also the GM may be trying to screw you factor, too. Ever have a GM when you built a darkness vs. the sight and hearing group never gave anyone active sonar, but radar abounded? I have.

 

What prevents it? Again' date=' depends on concepts. If we establish up front that "alien" means "very alien", and they are very rare, suddenly making them common because a PC comes from a background which is "very rare" robs the game of some of its integrity. [/quote']

 

First of all, you have already made the “very rare†“alien†common, by making them a PC. While Data, may have been a very rare being in the Star Trek universe. In the campaign that was the ST:NG campaign Data was a common character. You are assuming that what I meant is that the characters being brought in who defaulted to that class of mind must also be aliens themselves. No, I was stating that they simply when buying their Mental Powers chose to default to “alien†rather than to human. They didn’t buy the adder, so all the rest of the PCs get to be immune to them. As an example, let’s say I allow you to play a robot in my Champions campaign, and I tell you that you are the Machine Class of Mind, even though you have an Ego. Now, you may be going “sweet, I’m going to be immune to most of the mentalists in the world†in your head, but I’m going “Well, Cybermind (CKC) is going to be a major reoccurring opponent in this game. I could run a story where the robot is framed for a crime and the FBI would of course send Teknique (MU) to aprehend it.†Yeah, you may be immune to a lot of the mentalists, but that means most of the ones you are immune to you are going to avoid you, and the ones that your aren’t are probably only able to affect machines, which makes you more desirable to target. Cybermind, would normally avoid situations where he is likely going to have to fight a team of super heros, but any team with a robot on it, becomes a less daunting challenge, because now there is a team member that he can Mind Control.

 

 

 

 

In all cases' date=' it's easier to deal with powers that will be useless. "Uhhh...Flash vs Radar probably won't come up much in our Knights of King Arthur game..." than something which will sometimes be useless, other times not. "The Aliens walk among us!" "Didn't you tell me the Aliens adder wouldn't be of much use in this game?" [/quote']

 

“Hey, if I knew you were going to be doing a ‘Connecticut Yankee’ story line with someone with power armor, I might have considered putting a radar Flash in my multi-power.†If the GM doesn’t tell you something they should have, or worse yet lies or deliberately misleads you, which is really the impression I’m getting from your example. The rules will not save anyone from GM malfeasance.

 

 

 

 

In such a game world, Classes of Mind become useful, hence my belief it should remain as an optional rule. The statement of using defenses and egos was applied primarily to the argument that "aliens are really very rare, with minds completely separate from Human class".

 

That said, why wouldn't the ability to reduce that extra Ego by 30 be worth about 10 points, so you just use the same adder. Now WizBang the Summoner cannot now demolish Ezron the Enchanter by summoning animals which get to be immune to Ezron's enchantments without raising their cost in the slightest?

 

 

There's another easy solution to your fantasy world without making Classes of Mind a default (and thus without requiring the question of whether dwarves, elves, dragons, unicorns, trolls, giants, orcs, half orcs, etc. etc. etc. fall into Alien class of minds or not). "In this world, all Mental Powers have the default -0 limitation that animals get an automatic 30 points of Mental Defense against them. You can pay for an adder/advantage of +X to eliminate this restriction. Animals have the same limitation on applying their mental powers to non-animals, and the same cost for its elimination."

 

And, if I want a power that doesn't affect animals in a setting that doesn't use this option, I simply get the limitation the GM feels appropriate given how much this will limit my power in his game world.

 

Forgive me, but the point is that the “putting limitations on the Mental Powers†tactic isn’t any “easier†because it is the exact same tact as the Classes of Mind model. If I am putting the limitation “only against animals†or “only against crab monsters from the Kit Tune Nebula†than I am defining mental classes. If I am the GM requiring that mental powers be bought this way, I’m using a minor variation from what is in the book. Either way I have to define the mental groups in such a way that I and my players find the results fun and fair.

 

Since it is fundamentally the same thing the only thing that could be “easier†is a method where instead of limiting the way the power works, you are giving the potential targets enhanced defenses. Oh, yeah, I forgot since the telepaths that affect animals shouldn’t be able to affect humans, all humans now have to buy +30 Ego only vs. Mental Powers of telepaths that are supposed to affect animals only.

 

 

Player 4, you want to be immune to most mental attacks due to your non-human brain? No problem - you're an "alien mind" so you get immunity for free.

 

One of these is not like the others...

 

What's that? Players 1, 2 and 3 are aliens from outer space, and that's why they have their powers? No problem! Every NPC mentalist will buy "Affects Alien Class of Mind. [Either Player 4 gets an advantage for free, or he gets no advantage at all.]

 

Uh, and what exactly is wrong with Player 4 getting no advantage at all? The stated purpose of this is that the character wants to be immune to most mental attacks, not I want to be a character with an alien mind. So the solution being provided is inappropriate to the situation involved.

I’m sorry, but I do not accept “the rules must protect me from GM and player stupidity†as an acceptable argument.

 

 

 

Certainly debateable. The point is' date=' however, that there are easy definitions that don't require Classes of Mind to make it work. [/quote']

 

I’m afraid that you missed my point. (The above is your point not mine.) My point is that in most of the genres Mental Powers do not have a universal application. There are always some groups and/or individuals that are functionally immune to the powers. Is Classes of Mind required to make it work? No, but automatons (I really do not consider the ways that Sentinels have been used since about Giant Sized X-Men number one to justify using Autonomon builds for them, too much free will), ridiculous amounts of Mental Defense, etc. is not required to make it work either. I’m just happy that they used something that fit in with my game design philosophy that I can point to as a justification and a way to help me integrate some of my house rules more seemlessly with the rest of the existing mechanics.

 

 

I think this one attracts the accusation more than most because the system got along fine without Classes of Minds for a long time' date=' and because they were Steve's invention in 4e Ultimate Mentalist. But whether they were Steve's house rules or not, the real issue is "do they belong as a core rule, an optional rule, or not at all". The appropriateness of the rule, not its source, is the real issue.[/quote']

 

I don’t think this one is getting any special amount of attention, really. It just happens that some one had a situation where some players tried to take advantage of a GM by trying to abuse this rule. I really do not see there being an overwhelming crying out against the rule. Only you and Zornwil are die hard about it. I’m sure I could find someone to join me in being equally die hard about “multi power attacks†or two people to go on and on about “rappid fireâ€, etc.

[zornwil]

Re: Mental Powers

 

I was pointing out how effectively, what the classes of mind are doing is applying a -0 Lim "Only vs. Class of Mind X." This is effectively a limited form of invulnerability. In particular, I was waxing how this is my preferred way of creating an invulnerability by defining it in the way an attack power works.

 

In my dream version of the rules, somewhere in the campaign design section there would be a pretty good write up of how to incorporate invulnerablity into a campaign by the application of universal Limitation on all powers of a certain special effect, if you want to have limited invulnerabilities in you campaign.

I think the problem is that in absence of doing it in the carefully thought-out manner your closing comment suggests, we instead end up with something that clearly needs a lot more work and does more harm than good. Obviously, opinions vary.

[zornwil]

Re: Mental Powers

 

Thank you

 

 

 

I’m afraid that you are misunderstanding my use of the word “concept†in the context of my post. I’m saying that I like what I see as the base idea of the construct, not necessarily the specific implementation that is this particular construct. I like the ability to take a group of powers, whether defined by mechanic as here with Mental Powers or by SFX as is the case with poisons and diseases.

 

 

 

Yeah, well, I thought that infrared vision was pretty clear cut, too, until I had player hand me a character sheet with “Lifesight†on it, and said he just renamed and redid the SFX on infrared vision. On the other hand can we agree on what a “fair†amount of a restriction on a character who is built with water breathing as their default environment, when all the other characters were built with air as their default? I actually without asking my GM do not know how much more common active sonar is or is not than radar in any campaign where both powers are a reasonable build for the setting, because it is a matter of GM preference. Of course, there is also the GM may be trying to screw you factor, too. Ever have a GM when you built a darkness vs. the sight and hearing group never gave anyone active sonar, but radar abounded? I have.

 

It's a fair argument point on either side and I respect your comments. However, there is a key difference, and that is that the real-world effects of these are known and quantifiable and can be debated in that context, and are reflected in heroic fiction thusly as well. This CoM construct hs no real-world and no solid heroic-fiction basis. That introduces the variability and confusion and an entirely (and important in my criticism) arbitrary nature, which I object to.

 

(Major snippage)

 

Forgive me, but the point is that the “putting limitations on the Mental Powers†tactic isn’t any “easier†because it is the exact same tact as the Classes of Mind model. If I am putting the limitation “only against animals†or “only against crab monsters from the Kit Tune Nebula†than I am defining mental classes. If I am the GM requiring that mental powers be bought this way, I’m using a minor variation from what is in the book. Either way I have to define the mental groups in such a way that I and my players find the results fun and fair.

 

Since it is fundamentally the same thing the only thing that could be “easier†is a method where instead of limiting the way the power works, you are giving the potential targets enhanced defenses. Oh, yeah, I forgot since the telepaths that affect animals shouldn’t be able to affect humans, all humans now have to buy +30 Ego only vs. Mental Powers of telepaths that are supposed to affect animals only.

 

Uh, and what exactly is wrong with Player 4 getting no advantage at all? The stated purpose of this is that the character wants to be immune to most mental attacks, not I want to be a character with an alien mind. So the solution being provided is inappropriate to the situation involved.

I’m sorry, but I do not accept “the rules must protect me from GM and player stupidity†as an acceptable argument.

 

I’m afraid that you missed my point. (The above is your point not mine.) My point is that in most of the genres Mental Powers do not have a universal application. There are always some groups and/or individuals that are functionally immune to the powers. Is Classes of Mind required to make it work? No, but automatons (I really do not consider the ways that Sentinels have been used since about Giant Sized X-Men number one to justify using Autonomon builds for them, too much free will), ridiculous amounts of Mental Defense, etc. is not required to make it work either. I’m just happy that they used something that fit in with my game design philosophy that I can point to as a justification and a way to help me integrate some of my house rules more seemlessly with the rest of the existing mechanics.

 

There's a major difference in Lims vs CoM. Lims do have defined standards of use. CoM does not. You may infer that it does, and you may even be correct, but the lacking explanation leaves any number of scenarios to mind in its application and the degree of utility versus commonality implied by the model. I really am curious - why is plant not a CoM and as it is not, where does it fit? What was implied by that? Is it "anything equivalent to a -2 Lim is outside the scope of CoM?

 

I don’t think this one is getting any special amount of attention' date=' really. It just happens that some one had a situation where some players tried to take advantage of a GM by trying to abuse this rule. I really do not see there being an overwhelming crying out against the rule. Only you and Zornwil are die hard about it. I’m sure I could find someone to join me in being equally die hard about “multi power attacks†or two people to go on and on about “rappid fireâ€, etc.[/quote']

 

Well, first, just because it's the two of us in this thread doesn't mean that we're wrong. Just because there's no hue and cry over the rule doesn't mean it's right, either.

 

But second, the boards are neither necessarily representative of HEROdom outside, nor is it clear whether 2 people in this case represent a large number or small number of a community.

 

The thing is, both Hugh and I would be more accepting of a better-defined mechanic that spoke to the system in a more clear and reasoned way. And we both support the option you indicate of shuttling it into optional territory. But the way it is presented is aberrant and abhorrent to the HERO system, I would argue.

[caris]

Re: Mental Powers

 

It's a fair argument point on either side and I respect your comments. However, there is a key difference, and that is that the real-world effects of these are known and quantifiable and can be debated in that context, and are reflected in heroic fiction thusly as well. This CoM construct hs no real-world and no solid heroic-fiction basis. That introduces the variability and confusion and an entirely (and important in my criticism) arbitrary nature, which I object to.

 

(Major snippage)

 

 

 

There's a major difference in Lims vs CoM. Lims do have defined standards of use. CoM does not. You may infer that it does, and you may even be correct, but the lacking explanation leaves any number of scenarios to mind in its application and the degree of utility versus commonality implied by the model. I really am curious - why is plant not a CoM and as it is not, where does it fit? What was implied by that? Is it "anything equivalent to a -2 Lim is outside the scope of CoM?

 

While in general the real world effects are known and quantifable on many of these things (though I would question that on something like a "bolt of mystic force". I would question if there was a sufficiently consistent basis to create a true model for it from heroic fiction.), I disagree that the knowledge of those results are all that helpful in actuality when it comes to modeling it in the abstract terms of the Hero System. I refer you to any thread on military hardware vs. Super humans, military hardware in general, or guns as anecdotal evidence.

 

Limitations have a more defined standard than CoM? It is more discussed, but it still comes down to "the GM makes his/her best guess/goes with his/her gut," which is really what CoM goes with

 

Plants were left off, because the list was not meant to be all inclusive. The four classes listed were in no way intended to be a comprehensive list. Excuse me for arguing semantics, but, please, the phrase "basic classes include..." pretty much indicates to anyone paying attention that there are other equally valid classes, and that not all of the four mentioned classes would be used in every campaign. I mean only terrestrial poisons, diseases, etc. are mentioned in the Life Support write up, obviously that means no one could possibly by an immunity to a non-terrestrial disease.

 

I really, do not see why you and Hough are having so much trouble seeing "the GM can add others or alter these as he sees fit" as specifically stating the GM can make the classes for his campaign be one class, "Everything that can be affected by mental powers," or a list of 500 different things none of which are animal, machine, alien or human? The only time default is used in the write up is that a character defaults to a mind like it's own.

 

 

 

 

Well' date=' first, just because it's the two of us in this thread doesn't mean that we're wrong. Just because there's no hue and cry over the rule doesn't mean it's right, either. [/quote']

 

Yes, I know exactly what you mean. The martial arts rules are another perfect example of that.

 

But second' date=' the boards are neither necessarily representative of HEROdom outside, nor is it clear whether 2 people in this case represent a large number or small number of a community.[/quote']

 

Which is apprepro of nothing, I was not saying that just because only you two were discussing it, that you were inherently wrong. I was disagreeing with Hough's assessment, that this particular issue is getting an unusual amount of attention. I have seen nothing to make me think that their are more people talking about this than say the Damage Shield debate, or the other issues that I mentioned that you could get people to debate here that were changes from 4th to 5th.

 

The thing is' date=' both Hugh and I would be more accepting of a better-defined mechanic that spoke to the system in a more clear and reasoned way. And we both support the option you indicate of shuttling it into optional territory. But the way it is presented is aberrant and abhorrent to the HERO system, I would argue.[/quote']

 

I'm sorry, but I do not find it aberrant. It is fairly consistent with the way senses/sense affecting powers and life support work, and with the changes made to shape shift. All three create arbitrary groupings including "default" groupings that are not "necessary" to model the heroic fiction and in some cases real life either. Are they abhorrent to the Hero System, too?

[zornwil]

Re: Mental Powers

 

While in general the real world effects are known and quantifable on many of these things (though I would question that on something like a "bolt of mystic force". I would question if there was a sufficiently consistent basis to create a true model for it from heroic fiction.)' date=' I disagree that the knowledge of those results are all that helpful in actuality when it comes to modeling it in the abstract terms of the Hero System. I refer you to any thread on military hardware vs. Super humans, military hardware in general, or guns as anecdotal evidence.[/quote']

 

I'm not speaking to that level of detail. I'm speaking of the fact that we know that radar exists and pretty much what it does. Same with sonar. Same as, discussed prior, Energy versus Physical attacks.

 

As to "bolt of mystic force," I agree. The best we do is approximate it with "Energy Blast" and let people declare SFX.

 

Limitations have a more defined standard than CoM? It is more discussed, but it still comes down to "the GM makes his/her best guess/goes with his/her gut," which is really what CoM goes with

 

Where are the instructions for CoM?

 

Because Limited Power has a considerable amount of instructions and examples.

 

Plants were left off, because the list was not meant to be all inclusive. The four classes listed were in no way intended to be a comprehensive list. Excuse me for arguing semantics, but, please, the phrase "basic classes include..." pretty much indicates to anyone paying attention that there are other equally valid classes, and that not all of the four mentioned classes would be used in every campaign. I mean only terrestrial poisons, diseases, etc. are mentioned in the Life Support write up, obviously that means no one could possibly by an immunity to a non-terrestrial disease.

 

"...not meant to be all inclusive..." is granted - but what is the basis for inclusion? Animals, Aliens, and Humans are of a balanced ubiquity and utility? That is a highly debatable statement from the get-go. It is not at all clear as to the basis, and, besides, my point was, what IS the rule for something that is "not quite Class of Minds"? Is that a Limitation? On which...? Are Plants a subset of Animals?

 

If the construct is to be useful, it ought to be useful enough that at least the confluence of CoM with Limitations should be clear and the approach to values for partial adders and such stated (is it a Lim on an Adder? Or is it an Advantage on the Power?)

 

I really, do not see why you and Hough are having so much trouble seeing "the GM can add others or alter these as he sees fit" as specifically stating the GM can make the classes for his campaign be one class, "Everything that can be affected by mental powers," or a list of 500 different things none of which are animal, machine, alien or human? The only time default is used in the write up is that a character defaults to a mind like it's own.

 

In point of fact, the rules are staring us in the face and saying "it is suggested it is wrong to lump your aliens, animals, and humans together," and now we must justify something that required absolutely no justification before, and rested rather nicely on individual campaign world SFX. I don't know why...quite literally I have zero clue as to why this was an issue, whereas as DR pointed out earlier, I can understand why Machines with 0 EGO presented a problem. But he rules simply throw down that while solving this problem we also "desire" in HERO a further division among organic beings, with no explanation as to how this ties into the Machines Class or why this is desirable. But it certainly begs to any intelligent person who has no history in HERO that "if you let you rmentalists affect aliens, animals, and humans, it is unbalancing!" Yet I recall very few balance issues with mentalists that referred to these related issues, usually other issues are at the fore.

 

Yes, I know exactly what you mean. The martial arts rules are another perfect example of that.

 

Curiousity, what do you mean?

 

Which is apprepro of nothing, I was not saying that just because only you two were discussing it, that you were inherently wrong. I was disagreeing with Hough's assessment, that this particular issue is getting an unusual amount of attention. I have seen nothing to make me think that their are more people talking about this than say the Damage Shield debate, or the other issues that I mentioned that you could get people to debate here that were changes from 4th to 5th.

 

Okay, I see.

 

I'm sorry, but I do not find it aberrant. It is fairly consistent with the way senses/sense affecting powers and life support work, and with the changes made to shape shift. All three create arbitrary groupings including "default" groupings that are not "necessary" to model the heroic fiction and in some cases real life either. Are they abhorrent to the Hero System, too?

 

Shape Shift is based on senses. I don't entirely like it, but I see the logic and in point of fact it is easy to replicate that logic, and the entire Senses construct serves as a holistic mechanic that works across the entire system. And the grouping of senses is hardly arbitrary, aside from a few esoteric ones, and even then we have good explanation as to what and why that is. Life Support is based on real-world analogues and is entirely explicable in this context as well, and, besides, has no abstraction in its grouping that quarrels with SFX, instead its SFX bindings are reasonable.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mental Powers

 

My, what long posts you have.

 

At the risk of beiing boring, could we possibly define our goals here? I mean: what do you WANT the system to do?

 

It seems to me that how mental powers work is going to be a function of the game world more than anything else.

 

Two things seem to be paramount:

 

1. The number of classes of mind.

 

2. The interaction of different classes of mind.

 

If you want to have lots of different classes of mind one possible solution to the cost of making the power useable would be to have an adder that allows you to double the classes of mind that are available to you - so the first iteration allows 1 more mind then the second you can read 4 in total, then 8 then 16, and so on.

 

If you want basically one class of mind no matter what species, no problem and no solution needed.

 

The final option might be to consider not so much class of mind = read/can't read but class of mind = easier or harder to read. Here's an example system off the top of my head. No real thought or playtesting has gone into it (as usual )

 

Everyone with mental powers assigns a number from 1 to 5. Each 1 point of difference between your number an the target's number (or the attacker's if you are the target) translates to 10 points of mental defence.

 

Most humans and most PCs should be '3' unless otherwises specified.

 

So a '3' human v a '3' alien - no modification.

 

A '1' Alien against a '4' animal gives the target +30 Mental Defence...

 

OK, the other thing that you may want to build in is differences in understanding levels. It is hard to communicate with an animal as it doesn't think in sophisticated ideas.

 

I'd suggest 3 levels of 'understanding': Animal (less than 6 INT), Human (6 to 25 INT) and superhuman (above 25 INT). If you have powers then you can pick your natural communication mode, otherwise it is determined by INT. Each point of difference again adds +10 Mental defence.

 

SO...Anyone with telepathy can communicate with their dog. Most mammals have a Mind Type 4 and Animal level INT, so against a human mentalist (type 3 Mind, Human INT) they get 20 mental defence, but the mentalist COULD be defined as a Type 4 mind with primary communication with animals and have no modification. Hell, you could even define mind type and INT level for each power individually.

 

You can buy expanded class of mind for 5 or 10 points. For 5 points you can treat another consectutive mind type as your base type (so a Type 3 human could, for 5 points be considered a Type 2 and 3 OR a type 3 and 4 mind. You can chose the most beneficial when using your powers, but an attacker can chose the most beneficial to them when attacking - you are more 'open'. If you spend 10 points instead of 5, the expanded mind type is ONLY when you are using your powers, not when someone attacks you.