Humanity Loss (a.k.a. "This make me crazy")

[Dr Divago]

Hello again, i'm back with some question

I'm working for a conversione CP2020->Hero (and/or to build up a cyber hero...)

in the way of converting cyberware, i bumped into Humanity Loss procedure.

Briefly explanation of HL for non CP2020 players:

extensive implantation of cyberware make people crazy, becoming more more machine-like.

CP2020 mechanics was very simple: avery PC have an "Humanity Score", every cyberware bear a "Humanity Loss" (fixed amount subtracted to Humanity Point); when HP are low, some occurs (character become antisocial, hate everything, berserker rage, and like...)

 

In Hero mechanics, my idea was to be completely adherent to original concept, so every cyberware bear a "side effect", some fixed amount add on together; for every 5 "humanity loss" point, player (or GM) must select a new 5-level disadvantage (psych lim, enraged, and like) or worsen previously selected ones.

But Amadan-Na-Briona (here you can read his message) suggested me a more interesting rule: a transformation!

 

So i'm working in this way (i know, i'm logorrohic...), i build up a "minor side effect" (a 15 active point effect) but i've found some problem with Mental Transform...

Humanity Loss become

Major Transform (human in human with some minor disadvantages) 1d6

BoECV (+1)

Work against EGO, not BODY (+¼)

No END (+½)

Limited Effect (only human with this cyberware impanted; -¼)

No Range (-½)

Gradual Effect (1 week, -2)

total: 41 active, 11 real

But

1) this is not a MINOR side effect, this is a MAJOR side effect

2) successive cyberware implanted are not "stacked"; i mean, succesive implanted items does not worsen condition

3) working this way, i can transform a human into a cyberpsycho; i'm not adding a little disadvantage, but a full set of major disad, contrary to original idea that cyberware "gradually transform you in a crazy cyberpsycho"...

 

so the question is:

i'm "fumbling" in my "KS: Hero Rule" skill for creating this side effect (or, in other words, i've missed some point about how transform function/how can i use them) or simply i must use another method to emulate "humanity loss"?

 

Thank you for your help...

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Humanity Loss (a.k.a. "This make me crazy")

 

Just by the way, Dr., have you seen the Cyberpunk conversion rules for HERO? I can't quite remember where they are, but someone posted a giant list of "Other Game" >> "HERO" conversions, and they're on there.

[OddHat]

Re: Humanity Loss (a.k.a. "This make me crazy")

 

"Humanity Loss" is a balance tool to limit the amount of cyberwear a character can add at once, as well as a role playing tool. Hero already has a disadvantage system, and a point balance system. You might try just requiring players to take psych limits, Enraged, and social limits according to how much Cyberware they're packing. If you're woried thatt he Cyberware packing characters will be more powerful than the non-cyber characters, up the amount of non-intrusive free tech available in the game; you'll find a lot of players who would rather cary a gun than deal with the (for example) 8- enraged you'd require them to take if they used a built in optic laser.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Humanity Loss (a.k.a. "This make me crazy")

 

Or, the easiest thing to do is to have all cyberware count as Powers (of course), and require the player to pay a certain amount of character points to have the item -- even in a Heroic campaign. Not full-price, and he gets the points back if he loses the cyberware, mind you.

 

Better than restrictive insanity rules, I think.

 

Shadworun had an Essence system used to measure this sort of thing.

[OddHat]

Re: Humanity Loss (a.k.a. "This make me crazy")

 

Or, the easiest thing to do is to have all cyberware count as Powers (of course), and require the player to pay a certain amount of character points to have the item -- even in a Heroic campaign. Not full-price, and he gets the points back if he loses the cyberware, mind you.

 

Better than restrictive insanity rules, I think.

 

Shadworun had an Essence system used to measure this sort of thing.

 

Exactly.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Humanity Loss (a.k.a. "This make me crazy")

 

I tend to agree that Cyberpsychosis is a limiting effect more than a genre convention (I can't recall any of the cyberpunk novels I love incorporating the idea) but if you go with the transfrom approach I suggested there are a couple of things you can do to keep it from being overwhelming (all of which I suggested or meant to in my pother post, but lets lay them out in reference to your side effects construct above...)

 

#1) decrease your AP level by a bit, to fit it into a Minor side effects... Perhaps a 1/2d6 transform

 

#2) be aware that without the X2 modifier "Side effects always apply" you have some activation condition. Personally, I like the Maintainance skill roll approach.

 

#3) you are the one defining the effects of the Transform. If you say that a effect of being completely transformed (X2 body effect) is the addititon of 5 points of a Disad of the GM's choice, then thats how it works. you don't have to have them suddenly acquire 20 point monster disads. Have them build up 5 points at a time. Distinctive Features "Twitchy". Social Limitation (People start to trear the character differently because he's beginning to show the initial atrophy of interpersonal relation skills that people accosiate with CP).

 

#4) If all cybernetics are built with the same side effects, as GM you can choose to apply the transforms globally rather than one at a time. Or require time and effort to maintain each system,, on a weekly basis, and only add up the side effects of systems that either didn't get maintained, or that something was done wrong (missed skill roll)

 

#5) you can define the healing conditions of the Transform. If it heals like Body, then going in to a quality clinic may speed the healing rate as well as provide for highly skilled NPC's to do the maintainance... all you need are the Euro's. The net effect here is that the back alley black market cyber thugs are usually the ones who'll be going nuts. The corporate Ninjas with full access to the best medical and psych care aren't too likely to go crazy even if they're nothing but a brain in a bot.

 

Hope that helped clarify my idea for you.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Humanity Loss (a.k.a. "This make me crazy")

 

And in case anyone cares....

The system above is one I started using once upon a time for a global side effect rule for a Magic System, rather than for cybernetics. Change the names a bit and it works well for a Lankhmar type game where all magic is inherently dangerous to the user.

[schir1964]

Re: Humanity Loss (a.k.a. "This make me crazy")

 

You could create a "Humanity Loss" Character Disadvantage (Psychological Limitation - Minimum of Strong Level).

 

Every 20 (or whatever you deem) Active Points of Cyberware counts as negative modifier vs the EGO roll to overcome the Psychological Limitation when it is triggered.

 

I can come up with a sample if you want more detail.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Dr Divago]

Re: Humanity Loss (a.k.a. "This make me crazy")

 

I can come up with a sample if you want more detail.

Yep, i'll be very happy

[Dr Divago]

Re: Humanity Loss (a.k.a. "This make me crazy")

 

"Humanity Loss" is a balance tool to limit the amount of cyberwear a character can add at once' date=' as well as a role playing tool.[/quote']

and

Or' date=' the easiest thing to do is to have all cyberware count as Powers (of course), and require the player to pay a certain amount of character points to have the item -- even in a Heroic campaign.[/quote']

Okay, but the idea is to recreate feeling and setting of Talsorian's CP2020...

Again, my idea was to build up cyberware like "equipment package" to speed up recording on char sheet: i wrote "cyberarm" and this is comprehensive about all advantages and disadvantages (like writing "9mm Pistol" does not make me to write up AcP/Real cost, disadvantages, etc.)

 

just this

[OddHat]

Re: Humanity Loss (a.k.a. "This make me crazy")

 

and

Okay, but the idea is to recreate feeling and setting of Talsorian's CP2020...

Again, my idea was to build up cyberware like "equipment package" to speed up recording on char sheet: i wrote "cyberarm" and this is comprehensive about all advantages and disadvantages (like writing "9mm Pistol" does not make me to write up AcP/Real cost, disadvantages, etc.)

 

just this

 

In your situation, even with your goal, I'd make custom disad packages, call them "Humanity Loss", and either (prefered method) charge points for cyberware while allowing the Humanity Loss disads to be added after character creation or (easier, but players into "balance" will object) only charge cash for the cyberware but stick the player with the disads anyway, without giving him points for them. That's effectively what happens with the 0 point cost Cyberwear with Side Effects route anyway, and has the advantage of being a little more direct.

[Dr Divago]

Re: Humanity Loss (a.k.a. "This make me crazy")

 

#1) decrease your AP level by a bit' date=' to fit it into a Minor side effects... Perhaps a 1/2d6 transform[/quote']Yeah, i've thinked about it (perhaps making various side effect: minor (½d6), major (1d6) and extreme (1½d6) to emulate same "cassification" in Interlock (½d6, 1d6 and 2d6 Humanity Loss)

Problem is: ½d6 trasform means that 14 or more cyberware must be implanted to cause a "5-point disad"... 14 or more implant means BIG AMOUNT of cyberware...

Solution may be: Transform is to transform in a truly cyberpsichothic (i mean: a 20- or 30-point disadvantages monster) and add the "Partial Transform" so:

if "humanity loss" (transform point) is about 1/3 than EGO needed (2/3 of char Ego) a minor change occurs (a twitch, a noisy buzz or similar 5- or 10- point disad)

if HL is about 2/3 than EGO needed (4/3 of char ego) a major change occur (unnatural rage, hat against somthing or similar 10- or 20- point disad)

when transformation is complete, char is a "monster machine"...

#5) you can define the healing conditions of the Transform. If it heals like Body' date=' then going in to a quality clinic may speed the healing rate as well as provide for highly skilled NPC's to do the maintainance... all you need are the Euro's.[/quote']My idea was hust a little different, but OK.

Cyberpsychosis can be healed trough use of psychotic drugs, specialized braindance programs, and like; only exclusive clinic can heal cyberspychosis (only two known to mass media: in Europe and Orbital, according to Eurosource (cp2020 manual for europe...)) but, ehi! exclusive clinic are sooooo expensive...

Idea is that even expensive clinic cannot "heal back" cyberpsichosis, only make it happen veeeeeery gradually; only way to surely heal back is to remove all cyberware and pass some time with a specialized Police Psychologist (someone who insist that your mom is cause of your repressed hate against humanity or like... ).

Yes, remove ALL implanted hardware...

[Dr Divago]

Re: Humanity Loss (a.k.a. "This make me crazy")

 

In your situation' date=' even with your goal, I'd make custom disad packages, call them "Humanity Loss", and either (prefered method) charge points for cyberware while allowing the Humanity Loss disads to be added after character creation or (easier, but players into "balance" will object) only charge cash for the cyberware but stick the player with the disads anyway, without giving him points for them. That's effectively what happens with the 0 point cost Cyberwear with Side Effects route anyway, and has the advantage of being a little more direct.[/quote']

Well, mi original idea was very similar; but i've founded "transformation" method described by AmadanNaBriona interesting... so i'm exploring multiple possibilities...

[schir1964]

Re: Humanity Loss (a.k.a. "This make me crazy")

 

Sample 1 (Based on Enraged/Berserk Disadvantage)

 

Cyber Rage: Whenever the character is challenged (called a liar, insulted directly, etc...), the character will become enraged and attempt to kill/maim the challenger.

 

Circumstance: Challenged (Common, 10 Points)

Chance to Become Enraged (8-, 0 Points), Add Cyberware Level

Chance to Recover (14-, 0 Points), Subtract Cyberware Level

 

Cyberware Level: 1 Point for every 30 Active Points of Cyberware the character has.

 

Example:

120 Active Points of Cyberware, Cyberware Level = 4, Enraged = 8- + 4 = 12- on 3d6, Recover = 14- - 4 = 10- on 3d6,

 

 

Sample 2 (Based on Psychological Limitation Disadvantage)

 

Cyber Billigerance: In social situations (Party, Fancy Restuarant, Baseball Game, etc...) character becomes belligerant and insulting to those around him.

 

Circumstance: Social Events (Common, 10 Points)

Intensity: Ego Roll Required to Overcome (Strong, +5 Points); Ego Roll - Cyberware Level

 

Cyberware Level: 1 Point for every 30 Active Points of Cyberware the character has.

 

Example:

120 Active Points of Cyberware, EGO = 20, EGO Roll = 13-, Cyberware Level = 4, Cyber Belligerance Roll = 9- on 3d6 to Overcome

 

You can change this to meet the flavor you want for your games.

Does this help?

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Kristopher]

Re: Humanity Loss (a.k.a. "This make me crazy")

 

I've never been fond of the "loss of humanity/sanity" features in various games, such as Cyberpunk, White Wolf's games, or Call of Cthulhuhuththa (whatever).

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Humanity Loss (a.k.a. "This make me crazy")

 

If you are unaware; in the 4th edition days, there was a Cyberpunk sourcebook from HERO called CYBERHERO (of course). It was based on Iron Crown Enterprises CyberSpace game, but took that (quite interesting) Cyberpunk world and translated it to Hero rules. Obviously, not quite a detailed as Cyberpunk2020, but a good start.

 

The Cyberware rules were a little odd though. You paid both points and money for cyberware (paying points simulated the time and effort necessary to get used to using the new cybermod) and "Cyberpsychosis" was done via Side Effects on the various powers used to simulate Cyberware.

 

Essentially, Cyberpsychosis was treated as Mind Control. In the morning when the character woke up and/or during times of stress, you roll the Mind Control dice and applied the result to the characters EGO.

 

>Ego: Character feels the difference between the metal and the meat. Character is unnerved and may become introverted. The effects will wear off

 

Ego+10: Character may become irritable and violent. Character is unstable, but generally are in a state of depression. Players still have control.

 

Ego+20: Character is manic-depressive, and suffers from mild psychopathy. Character will commit violent acts they would not normally do without provocation. This is generally not directed toward friends or family.

 

Ego+30: Character is in a deep depression and is a Psychopath. Immediate treatment is necessary.

 

I liked this particular method because since it is built as Mind Control, this gives the players a chance to break out of the behavior via a "Break-out roll". This wasn't in the book, but the way I handled the breakout roll was -1 to the roll for every 5pts the roll beat the characters Ego. +1 for each step on the time chart beyond the event that caused the character to lose control.

 

With this method, even though a character may be so cybered up that he's a cold-blooded murderer (I've had at least 1 character in my Star Hero game that had this problem!) there will be times when his will-power will allow him to control himself and he can seek help.

 

Getting help via therapy...either psychiatric or chemical, allows the character to develop both skill levels to help the Breakout roll and Mental Defense to reduce the effects of the Psychosis roll. (though I never allow more than 10pts of Mental Defense from chemical treatment, and it must be administered daily)

 

Thats how I've been doing Cyberpsychosis. I like it. I'm sure a similar method could be generated using Psychological Limitations instead of Mind Control if one were so inclined.

[pinecone]

Re: Humanity Loss (a.k.a. "This make me crazy")

 

yet annother fast and sloppy method is making various levels of Cyberpsychosis part of the "package deal" so a major mod like both arms means no "natural" sense of touch and viola! That makes you a little crazy...

[schir1964]

Re: Humanity Loss (a.k.a. "This make me crazy")

 

... (though I never allow more than 10pts of Mental Defense from chemical treatment' date=' and it must be administered daily)...[/quote']

This sounds kind of like the Disadvantage Dependence. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Dr Divago]

Re: Humanity Loss (a.k.a. "This make me crazy")

 

Thank you all very much for your ideas

 

In the end, my ultimate decision was: transformation side effect

a bit modified:

7 degree of Major Transformation (from minimun of 1 point to maximum of 2d6), all with BoECV, Work Against Ego, partial transform, plus no range, limited target, gradual effect (some days)

HL: 1 -> 14 Active Points -> Minor Side Effect -> -¼

HL: ½d6 -> 27 Active Points -> Minor Side Effect -> -½

HL: 1d6-1 -> 27 Active Points -> Major Side Effect -> -½

HL: 1d6 -> 40 Active Points -> Major Side Effect -> -¾

HL: 1d6+1 -> 55 Active Points -> Major Side Effect -> -1

HL: 1½d6 -> 68 Active Points -> Extreme Side Effect -> -1½

HL: 2d6 -> 82 Active Points -> Extreme Side Effect -> -1¾

 

Partial Transformation also has changed a bit:

=½ EGO -> Trivial Effect (5-point disad)

=¾ EGO -> Noticeable Effect (10-point disad)

=EGO -> Synthomatic Effect (15-point disad)

=1¼ EGO -> Moderate Effect (20-point disad)

=1½ EGO -> Serious Effect (25-point disad)

=1¾ EGO -> Critical Effect (30-point disad)

=2 EGO -> Full Effect (35-point disad)

 

Disadvantages point are "complessive":

so Jerry "Xyz" Loneman, a cyber character with 10 EGO and 10 Humanity Loss point, has a 15 point psychological limtation; when he install next cyberware, he gain 3 HL point, and he become "Moderate". He can choose to acquire a new 5-point cyberpsycho disadvantage or worsen his Psych Lim to 20 point

 

Specific treatment can increase chance of success:

-Meeting weekly with a Psychologist or a "anonimal cyber'" circle increase EGO from 2 to 4 point (only to resiste cyberpsychosis)

-Weekly based visitation on specilized clinic (not so expensive, neither cheap...) increase EGO from 4 to 6 point (ony to resist...)

-High level clinic, very expensive, only for corporative, etc. increase EGO from 6 to 8

-Implantation in exclusive European and/or Orbital clinic's program (very very very expensive) increase EGO by 10 only to resist cyberpsichosis

 

So if master feel that cyberpsichosis is too limiting, can permits access to this specilized clinics; and viceversa...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Humanity Loss (a.k.a. "This make me crazy")

 

I like the mind control idea, but fear it may be too easily circumvented and the effects may not last long enough to be meaningful.

 

Couldn't we do this, if you want cyberpsychosis:

 

(maybe this is what has been suggested, but I am a bit dim)

 

Each bit of cyberware has a side effect: major transform (set effect: 3/dice), but the side effect doesn't go off with each use, it is just there while you have the cyberware, and goes away if you take it away. You get a -1/2 limitation, and it is worked out on Extreme side effects, limitation value halved (like 'END only to activate').

 

So each 15 points of cyberware gives you 3 points of transform, or 1 point per 5 in cyberware, which is at least neat and manageable. The effects of multiple pieces of cyberware ARE cumulative.

 

When fully in effect, the transform gives the cyberpsychotic a beserk limitation (very common, beserk, 14-/11-), a 40 point limitation. Now, assuming that the average character has an EGO of 12, that is 24 points of effect you need, so using partial transform, you gain beserks as follows:

 

10 Uncommon circumstances 11-/14- enraged

20 Uncommon circumstances 11-/14- berserk

30 Common circumstances 11-/11- berserk

40 Very common circumstances 14-/11- berserk

 

The circumstances could be:

 

Uncommon - when personally insulted or first attacked

Common - when group insulted or first attacked

Very common - all confrontational situations

 

To be completely wigged out you'd need (for the above character) 120 points of cyberware, but even with only 30 points you are a lot more testy than usual. Obviously EGO is going to be a real good thing to have if you are planning on cybering up. Because of this you may want to either limit the amount of EGO that can be bought or only allow it above a certain point with the limitation 'not for transformation to cyberpsychotic' (-0 or, if you are ludicrously generous, -1/4). You might allow certain combat drugs to boost EGO so that cyber soldiers are more controllable. Or you might not.

 

If you don't like cyberpsychosis, don't have it.

 

NB the mental transformation can be far more radical at the same points - you can add increasingly dire social and psychological limitations, but, frankly, going berserk in stressful situations is probably enough. Don't make life more complicated than necessary, eh?

 

The other, far more ad-hoc way of doing it would be to require players to SHIFT disadvantages into appropriate social/psychological/enraged limitations as a pay off for being allowed to buy cyberware. That way, as they get increasingly cybered up, friends, family, job, life in general becomes less important than using that glittering new cyberarm to punch that smug smile off...sorry, where was I?

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Humanity Loss (a.k.a. "This make me crazy")

 

Yes, I think a Transform Side Effect would probably be better than the Mind Control version.

 

The Mind Control version is good for GM's who don't want players giving up their characters because of Cyberpsychosis. There's multiple ways for the character to break-out of the behavior, but it is good for a player control collar to keep most players from packing on too much Cyberware (because the stuff is cheap, point-wise)

 

The Transform version is better for a more solid effect of Cyberpsychosis as per Cyberpunk or Essense-loss as per ShadowRun.

 

Sean, I like your idea for Transform Side Effect giving the character a Berserk Disad. Thats pretty much perfect. Partial Transformations giving characters higher and higher Berserk activations is pretty much dead-on. Thats what I'm going to use from now on.

 

Therapy and chemical treatments will provide either bonuses to the Berserk recovery rolls or Power defense vs the Transform dice....

 

Thanks Sean, you da man!