Timing of Hit Location/ Armor Application

[Guest Strassenzauber]

All right, this is a bit complicated, but it came up recently and I find it a fascinating subject, so I'd like to see it examined and dissected by the scientists here on the HERO forums.

 

Let's assume the following conditions.

 

...You are using the Hit Locations Optional Rule.

...Each individual segment of a particular "suit of armor" could, in theory, be worn by itself.

 

When a character wearing Armor takes damage from another character, do you apply the Armor rating to the damage first, and subsequently apply the Hit Location Modifier for the area affected, or do you apply the Hit Location Modifier first, and then apply the Armor Rating to the result?

 

It seems to me the most realistic way to do it is to first apply the Armor Rating, and then apply the Hit Location Modifiers to any damage that gets THROUGH the Armor. After all, if you get hit in the head with a rock, but your helmet prevents you from even feeling it, you wouldn't take any more damage than if you were wearing a gauntlet that offered the same protection on your arm, and got hit by a rock on the arm.

 

What do you think?

[Alric]

Re: Timing of Hit Location/ Armor Application

 

Hit location modifier first then armor.

 

That's the most realistic way. Given the same level of protection a hit to the head will be far more damaging to the victim than a hit on the hand (or arm). There just isn't much vital stuff in arms and hands, vital to contniued survival that is.

 

Even if the head armor stops the round from penetrating it will still snap the head around. Which can cause brain damage, broken necks, or even pull the spinal cord away from the brainstem causing instant death. If I remember my learning Channel correctly that's what killed that famous race car driver a couple of years ago.

[Warp9]

Re: Timing of Hit Location/ Armor Application

 

Hit location modifier first then armor.

I'm pretty sure that you are wrong in this case.

 

There is an example in the book where a Mage hits a goblin with a 3d6 RKA to the Arms.

 

The Mage Rolls a 13 BODY.

 

The Goblin has a 3 Def, which gets subtracted FIRST, leaving 10, which is then cut in half (due to an arm shot), leaving 5 BODY.

 

The facts are simple, 10 Defense will stop 10 BODY, even from a head shot. Anything that gets through the defenses is subject to hit location BODY multiplier.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Timing of Hit Location/ Armor Application

 

I'm pretty sure that you are wrong in this case.

 

There is an example in the book where a Mage hits a goblin with a 3d6 RKA to the Arms.

 

The Mage Rolls a 13 BODY.

 

The Goblin has a 3 Def, which gets subtracted FIRST, leaving 10, which is then cut in half (due to an arm shot), leaving 5 BODY.

 

The facts are simple, 10 Defense will stop 10 BODY, even from a head shot. Anything that gets through the defenses is subject to hit location BODY multiplier.

 

The 5e rule is subtarct the armor from BOD, then apply the hit location modifier. The STUN is computed before armor is applied.

 

This is a reversal of the 4e rule, where the hit location multiple was applied first.

 

The change makes head hits less dangerous, but allows hand and foot hits to actually inflict BOD, which was previously pretty unlikely with BOD halved before defenses were applied.

[Guest Strassenzauber]

Re: Timing of Hit Location/ Armor Application

 

The 5e rule is subtarct the armor from BOD, then apply the hit location modifier. The STUN is computed before armor is applied.

 

This is a reversal of the 4e rule, where the hit location multiple was applied first.

 

The change makes head hits less dangerous, but allows hand and foot hits to actually inflict BOD, which was previously pretty unlikely with BOD halved before defenses were applied.

 

Ah, so that's the official ruling, then?

 

Good. Alric, I think you may have missed one crucial point: a helmet and a gauntlet that covered the same locations and had all the same properties would not be equal under the 4e rules, since the head Armor would automatically have twice as much damage applied to its Armor rating, and a gauntlet Armor would automatically have had 1/2 the damage applied to its armor rating... making a Gauntlet 4x more effective than a Helmet, for the same amount of points!

 

I'm very glad that the 5e official rule is "Armor first, then Hit Location."

[RDU Neil]

Re: Timing of Hit Location/ Armor Application

 

The 5e rule is subtarct the armor from BOD, then apply the hit location modifier. The STUN is computed before armor is applied.

 

This is a reversal of the 4e rule, where the hit location multiple was applied first.

 

The change makes head hits less dangerous, but allows hand and foot hits to actually inflict BOD, which was previously pretty unlikely with BOD halved before defenses were applied.

 

 

I've been playing for years this way. For Killing attacks... Hit Location stun multiple is used before armor... Body multiple is after armor. I'm pretty sure this dates back to 4th Edition Ninja Hero if not before.

 

Then normal attacks are confused, because for Normal Attacks, I think the Stun modifier is AFTER defenses.

 

Complicated, but it works.

 

KA Stun MULTIPLE before armor.

 

KA Body MODIFIER after armor.

 

Norm Stun/Body MODIFIER after defenses.

 

 

At least I've been playing it that way for fifteen plus years.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Timing of Hit Location/ Armor Application

 

yeah, KA stun multiples before armor (a head hit you wil *feel* if not take damage from)

 

then armor, then body multiple if any gets through

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Timing of Hit Location/ Armor Application

 

yeah, and it's sometimes most unfortunate tht it works that way. As herolover's signiture says...

I'm CON stuned again!

[Ura-Maru]

Re: Timing of Hit Location/ Armor Application

 

Or, if you look at it the other way, the helmet armor is now four times as protective as the hand armor. It stopped you from taking 5 body, while the hemet stopped you from taking 20.

 

---

"I apply a tourniquet to my neck . . ."

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Timing of Hit Location/ Armor Application

 

KA Stun MULTIPLE before armor.

 

KA Body MODIFIER after armor.

 

With you so far; that's how I've always played it...

 

Norm Stun/Body MODIFIER after defenses.

 

...but now you've lost me. What's the point of treating Normal Body differently from Killing Body? Seems unnecessarily complicated to me.

 

bigdamnhero

"Seasoned? That’s a hell of a thing to say to a man!"

[RDU Neil]

Re: Timing of Hit Location/ Armor Application

 

With you so far; that's how I've always played it...

 

 

 

...but now you've lost me. What's the point of treating Normal Body differently from Killing Body? Seems unnecessarily complicated to me.

 

bigdamnhero

"Seasoned? That’s a hell of a thing to say to a man!"

 

Well, the actual reasoning on Body is the same. Body Modifier after defenses.

 

The only difference is that the Stun Modifier is applied after defenses for Normal Attacks. That is where it gets weird. Or maybe I've played it wrong... but in all my years, if a punch lands in the stomach, then after PD, the Stun that gets through is x1.5 or whatever (I don't have the book with me.)

 

The reason for this is that the Stun MULTIPLE is a way of determining the actual Stun of the attack... not a modifier on the stun rolled... while a Stun MODIFIER affects the number of Stun rolled normally on the dice.

 

It is because of the Killing Attack Stun Multiple way of figuring KA Stun that makes things weird.

 

This is why I highlighted the differences between MULTIPLE and MODIFIER.

 

Hope that makes sense.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Timing of Hit Location/ Armor Application

 

That's how it is in 5ER, 414-415. That does make some amount of sense. If you wanted to keep it consistent, just use a base multiplier of 3 and then use the N-STUN column for everything.

 

Example: 3d6K attack does 15 BODY and 45 STUN. A 9d6N attack that causes 46 STUN (5 6s, 4 4s) does 14 BODY, but probably only 9 BODY. Now apply the N-STUN multiplier normally. If these were head-shots with 4 rPD and 2 PD, the damage would be killing: (15- 4) = 11 BODY x 2 = 22 BODY, 39 x 2 = 78 STUN; normal: (14 - 6) = 8 x 2 = 16 BODY, 40 x 2 = 80 STUN. If the normal killing rules were used, the base STUN would be 15 x 5 = 75 STUN - 6 = 69.

 

In an average hit, the STUN would be 11 BODY x 5 = 55 STUN - 6 = 49. Using the method above, the STUN would be 11 x 3 = 33 STUN - 6 = 27 x 2 = 54.

 

In a crit/max hit, the STUN would be 18 BODY x 5 = 90 STUN - 6 = 84. Using the method above, the STUN would be 18 x 3 = 54 STUN - 6 = 48 x 2 = 96. The same max hit from a Normal Attack would do exactly the same.

 

I suppose I would be inclined to make things simpler and just go with the base x3 and have one STUNx on my character sheet (and one method as well). Since I generally play with a Mook rule for damage (only named enemies have/cause random hit location), everyone is used to x3 STUN anyway.

 

If you wanted to eliminate the odd-ball Killing Damage DCs, you could just do damage using Normal Dice defined as killing (meaning only resistant defenses would apply) - might actually make learning the game easier for some people. You could also do the reverse and just use the killind damage DCs for everything (e.g. 2 1/2d6 Mind Control instead of 8d6), multiplying the effect by 3. A contest of STR between 2 characters of 15 STR would be a simple 1d6 roll.

 

Now I'm in crazy talk land and you probably should have stopped reading 2 paragraphs ago (if that).

[zornwil]

Re: Timing of Hit Location/ Armor Application

 

yeah, and it's sometimes most unfortunate tht it works that way. As herolover's signiture says...

I'm CON stuned again!

Argh, there is no "CON stun"! There is only being stunned and being knocked out and so on...

 

Signed,

the Curmudgeonly Old-Timer

 

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Timing of Hit Location/ Armor Application

 

what was CON stun?

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Timing of Hit Location/ Armor Application

 

Referring to if you take more STUN than you have CON you are Stunned for 1 phase. Many people call that being "CON Stunned", but why the extra clarification of CON is necessary is unclear. There is only one way to be Stunned in the game, AFAIK.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Timing of Hit Location/ Armor Application

 

Referring to if you take more STUN than you have CON you are Stunned for 1 phase. Many people call that being "CON Stunned"' date=' but why the extra clarification of CON is necessary is unclear. There is only one way to be Stunned in the game, AFAIK.[/quote']

 

We still say it this way... there is no "stunned" just CON stunned and unconscious (below zero). Been saying it that way since '81!!!

 

Neil "I can be curmudgeonly too!" Carver

[zornwil]

Re: Timing of Hit Location/ Armor Application

 

We still say it this way... there is no "stunned" just CON stunned and unconscious (below zero). Been saying it that way since '81!!!

 

Neil "I can be curmudgeonly too!" Carver

Sure, but you're wrong-curmudgeonly and I'm right-curmudgeonly and that gives me the right to slay you and send you to d20 hell! Or at least I go to HERO heaven if you slay me.

 

 

(I never heard of "CON stunned" until the boards, even though to be fair I did instictively know what it means, and, btw, on a more serious note I grant reasonable confusion on the first tier of meaningful STUN damage versus being stunned, and the confusion of "STUN" versus "stun")

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Timing of Hit Location/ Armor Application

 

But if I Sweep my Slayage and get you both, where do I go?

[zornwil]

Re: Timing of Hit Location/ Armor Application

 

But if I Sweep my Slayage and get you both' date=' where do I go?[/quote']

FUDGE pergatory.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Timing of Hit Location/ Armor Application

 

Ahhhh! It's a sign! I just got my Steffen O'Sullivan signed copy of the 10yr Big Blue Fudge book.

 

I repent. I wish to wile my years in Hero Heaven.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Timing of Hit Location/ Armor Application

 

ah, i was wondering if it was a refrence to an older edition where there was something called CON stunned vs. regular stunned

[Alric]

Re: Timing of Hit Location/ Armor Application

 

Referring to if you take more STUN than you have CON you are Stunned for 1 phase. Many people call that being "CON Stunned"' date=' but why the extra clarification of CON is necessary is unclear. There is only one way to be Stunned in the game, AFAIK.[/quote']

 

That's because the damage is called "stun".

 

GM: Ok, you take 10 Stun

Player: Arrrgh! Stunned again!

GM: No you just took stun, you're not stunned.

Player: Huh? I took stun but I didn't?

GM: There are two kinds of Stun. There is stun the damage and stunned the effect from damage.

Player: ?

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Timing of Hit Location/ Armor Application

 

Stun is either a transitive verb or a noun. Stunned is a past participle representing a state of being. I fail to see the connection.

[Tim]

Re: Timing of Hit Location/ Armor Application

 

Stun is either a transitive verb or a noun. Stunned is a past participle representing a state of being. I fail to see the connection.

 

 

Not everyone is a liguist. I use Con Stunned also so my new HERO gamers will understand the difference.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Timing of Hit Location/ Armor Application

 

I guess it's just one of those things that either clicks with you or doesn't. I never had a problem with it but I can see how in a complex string of damage that it can be confusing.