Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

[Fox1]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

I have never played it' date=' but isn't Rolemaster almost completely random in terms of CharGen and involves tons of charts?[/quote']

 

Yes.

 

Also has one of the most complex EXP systems I've used in a role-playing game.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

a game like these seems to require a different mindset. The willingness to take a character that isn't yours and has no life and breathig that life into it. Instead of taking a spark you already have and giving it a form. That is a valid method of Chargen...

 

not my prefered...but a valid method.

[Tae Kwon Dan]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

Exactly what I believe Fox1 was saying. Rolemaster has a very small, but dedicated following from what I have seen at the Con scene. And like I said it could be a fun exercise occasionally or for a one-off adventure, but it's much more of a subjective choice than folks would think.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

I've played games with a looser "life path", it's ok, and can help you if you don't have a firm grasp of a character concept, but if you do have that grasp, i find it annoying and unnessisary

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

my only argument would be that this system requires you to want this kind of limitation. If I was trying to create a personal character, spent a lot of time trying, making characters over and over again tryig to get the combonation I wanted, and I could not I would probubly feel that the system was crap. A system that promised me customizable character concepts and delivered me this would be "a bad system."

 

I I knew that was what I was getting into I would not be expecting that customized character, I would not be tryign to get eactly what I wanted from the standpoint of a prethought out but not constructed character design.

 

If I chose to play a system like this, I would be expecting an interesting generated character for me to try and play. If that was my mindset I would feel that this is a "good system."

 

both are true, and both are valid player responses. The system is both "crap" and "good"

It's a good system if what I want is what it does well.

It's a crap system if it can't do what I'm looking for or what it tells me t can do.

 

It's a "valid" system if it works in general

[Fox1]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

a game like these seems to require a different mindset. The willingness to take a character that isn't yours and has no life and breathig that life into it. Instead of taking a spark you already have and giving it a form. That is a valid method of Chargen...

 

not my prefered...but a valid method.

 

Exactly.

 

I've found that every game has their fans. Even those that I think are the worse possible example of game design the world has even seen.

 

The simple truth is that people are just weird and there's no accounting for taste.

[buzz]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

But then to me the character generation was the most important part of the game. I was always under the impression that having a deep well thought out character was the whole point of roleplaying' date=' that as players we were supposed to assume the role of the individual we chose to play. How can I play the game if I have not created a role to play, wich satisfies me?[/quote']

As someone with theater experience, you should be used to having a fully-realized character handed to you with the expectation that you will be able to portray them.

 

When we're talking about teaching a system, especially if we're talking about teaching it to someone new to roleplaying, how characters are created is really secondary. Most other types of games don't have the expectation that the player needs to know how the game arrived to the point play begins. E.g., in Monopoly, you don't need to know anything about the little shoe; you just need to know what you're supposed to do with the shoe.

 

Also, basic "roleplaying" such as Cops n' robbers and "hypothetical situation" thought experiments generally don't start with, "Okay, let's examine first how your persona came to be." They generally start with "Okay, I'm the cop!" or "Imagine that you're a fisherman. What would you do if..."

 

Ergo, a "satisfying" role isn't really important to teaching. Chargen is usually the most complex part of any RPG, and is thus the last place a teacher should start. It's far easier to hand the newbie a character and say, e.g., "Okay, in this game you're going to be playing a pulp hero named Randall Irons. When you want Randall to act, we resolve the outcome using dice. Here's how that works. [insert mechaincs explanantion here]."

 

I.e., this is the same reason that teaching math starts with arithmetic, not the theory behind arithmetic.

 

Chargen just involves too many factors for a total newbie. Not only do you need to understand the basic mechanics of the game, you need to udnerstand the mechanics of chargen, the impact of choices made during chargen, the parameters the GM has set on chargen, and the nature of the campiagn and the genre conventions it contains. That's a lot to digest before you even understand how to actually play.

 

I find this also holds for experienced gamers who are unfamiliar with a system. They don't need to know where the numbers on the characer sheet came from in order to grok the system; they need to know how they're used.

 

This is why demos and "basic" versions of games (e.g., the current Basic D&D) don't generally run people through chargen. They provide some characters and then start people off in a scenario. For most players, the majority of time is spent in scenario; that's the bulk of the play experience, so that's what you need to teach. Not to mention, it takes far less time. You simply could not teach HERO chargen and expect to get in much play time in the space of a typical 4-hour con demo/event.

 

(E.g., there's a guy in my D&D group who has never rolled up a PC himself. He's a casual gamer, so isn't really interested. This has not stopped him from playing and enjoying the game for a couple of years now.)

 

Now, this isn't to say that you can't often connect better with a "student" when they can make some choices, but you need to limit these choices and then, ideally, do the heavy lifting for them. E.g., if the newb says "I'd really like to play a witch!" or "Can I be Wonder Woman?", you stat up that character for them.

 

IMO, of course. This approach seems to have worked for me, on both sides of the equation.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

I think it depends on the person. I learned DnD straight from the book, as well as most of the WW games. I've always enjoyed making characters right from the first, i think it depends on the person how you should introduce them.

[Fox1]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

(E.g., there's a guy in my D&D group who has never rolled up a PC himself. He's a casual gamer, so isn't really interested. This has not stopped him from playing and enjoying the game for a couple of years now.)

 

Now, this isn't to say that you can't often connect better with a "student" when they can make some choices, but you need to limit these choices and then, ideally, do the heavy lifting for them. E.g., if the newb says "I'd really like to play a witch!" or "Can I be Wonder Woman?", you stat up that character for them.

 

I've use this approach for years now, and will in fact use no other in HERO.

 

Most players just aren't interested in learning to do character or item construction. They want to play.

 

So I take their concept and turn it into a character. Most of the players quickly learn enough of the game (the mechanics of play, not of construction) to know if it's a match for their concept or not- modifications are made and off we go.

 

In the end I find this better all around. Not only do they not have to deal with learning a huge amount of construction rules- but everything that exists in the game is created in the same style and vision. Makes it much easier to maintain balance as well as the reality of the world.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

On the theatre aspect, yes I am. And I'm sick of it, which would be why I quit But then theatre came with auditions. You don't just get handed a script you've never read and told to go cold unless you already knew what you were getting yourself into.

 

alright, so....catch the part about it works for most people. and where I agreed with you?

Cause it does, and I agreed with that. I still agree with it.

 

But to me Chargen isn't all about stats or even the mechanics. It is about making a person. So even if as a GM I make the stats for said person, I don't believe in creating the "person" for a player entirely, just the body for the person that they want to play. I would not be adverse for helping another player in the ways you've suggested, taking thier concept and giving them a form.

 

I just don't like being handed a character and being told to play.

 

The mechanics are not super essentail to enjoyign a system. I'll agree with that. The complexities of mechanical character generation are not important. I'll also agree with that.

 

But the conceptual creation of the character is of utmost importance. And I feel wrong taking that away from the player.

 

I's ok if it's good for you, I definately respect that. I just can't do it.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

I think it depends on the person. I learned DnD straight from the book' date=' as well as most of the WW games. I've always enjoyed making characters right from the first, i think it depends on the person how you should introduce them.[/quote']

 

I would agree with you roy. I'm not satified unless I have made my character from the inside out. I'll accept help. But I want them to be mine.

[buzz]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

The mechanics are not super essentail to enjoyign a system. I'll agree with that. The complexities of mechanical character generation are not important. I'll also agree with that.

 

But the conceptual creation of the character is of utmost importance. And I feel wrong taking that away from the player.

Yes, I can see this. It does often help for the newb to have some sort of investment in the character, even if it's just giving them a choice of avaiable characters: "Okay, do you want to play Buffy, Xander, Spike, Willow, or Anya?"

 

You can personalize this even more by making pregens, but letting the newb choose the name and gender. It takes no system knowledge, and it goes a long way to helping the player identify with the PC.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

My problem with chargen that is done for you -- lists of "feats", other abilities, a level and class system, randomly rolled stats, etcetera -- is that, in my experience, people often have an idea of exactly what they want to be, and try to force the class, race, and feats they choose to conform to their character concept. Having 13 classes, as in D&D, is extemely limiting to people who want to be a certain kind of individual. What if someone wanted to play a ninja in D&D 3e? They'd have to choose Fighter or Monk and fake it, trying to choose feats that emulate ninja abilities.

 

Why struggle to make a class system be what you really want it to be, when you can toss it out altogether? As a recent lifelong D&D player/ recent total HERO convert, I can say without prejudice that HERO's way of creating characters is infinitely preferable to the way D&D does it... in my opinion, of course, but also in my experience. And you'll spend just as much time trying to get the right balance of feats and skill levels and prerequisites as you would creating a HERO character. Worse, agonizing over which feats and skills to buy takes place in-game, or between sessions, whereas I find it very easy to spend CP on an already-made HERO character. Maybe because there's no list of 100s of feats to look through.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

The mechanics are not super essentail to enjoyign a system. I'll agree with that. The complexities of mechanical character generation are not important. I'll also agree with that.

 

Ah, but better game mechanics increase the enjoyment of those aspects not connected to the mechanics. The type of system isn't essential, but it's better with a superior one. Like the graphics card in your computer -- it's the same game, but you get better performance with a better "card".

 

But the conceptual creation of the character is of utmost importance. And I feel wrong taking that away from the player.

 

Yes.

[Fox1]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

What if someone wanted to play a ninja in D&D 3e?

 

The same exact thing that would happen if they wanted to play Darkwing Duck in my Marvel based HERO system campaign. They'd be told that such a thing doesn't exist in this world.

 

D&D is a setting specific RPG, although it covers enough ground that it can be transported to other areas.

 

One of the joy of such settings specific RPGs is that the rules cover everything allowed into that setting. If you can't do it, it's because it frankly doesn't belong there.

 

I love that feature. It makes for a cleaner more control design.

 

If there was a *good* Marvel Superhero game on the market, I'd drop HERO like a rock.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

they got the ninja ok in 3.5 (complete adventure), but having to buy all of the expansion books to get new classes is a pain.

 

And they still haven't made a good samuri

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

they got the ninja ok in 3.5 (complete adventure), but having to buy all of the expansion books to get new classes is a pain.

 

And they still haven't made a good samuri

 

That's what I mean... a lot of people have to get the dozens of books that contain the new classes or prestige classes. I know... players often won't play without the "official" version of something, for some reason.

[buzz]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

What if someone wanted to play a ninja in D&D 3e?

They'd use the ninja class from Book X, or work with their DM to adapt the rogue or a multiclass combination.

 

D&D is not about flexibility. D&D is about a certain amount of flexibility within a set of archetypes designed to fit the campiagn world. HERO can become just as confining given GM parameters designed to fit a given setting. E.g., the paramters for Terran Empire don't really make room for a "ninja", either.

 

The point is that not everyone necessarily "wants" D&D chargen to be anything other than it is. If they did, it wouldn't dominate 60% of the market. There is nothing inherrently superior about flexibility. StoryTeller isn't particularly flexibile; it needs to be tailored for a given setting as much as d20 or BRP. However, it seems to have done a good job, once tailored, for delivering the experience promised by the specific game in question (e.g., Vampire).

 

What matters is simply wether the system adequately achieves the goals set forth in the product. D&D's goal isn't to present players with a multi-genre toolkit for designing any conceivable PC. It's to facilitate D&D-style fantasy, and part of that is assembling a party of certain archetypes who cooperate in adventuring scenarios. It does this extremely well, and also is robust and rigorous enough that it can take a lot of abuse for people who want to tweak but also stay within the parameters of a familiar system.

 

Previous genre-specific HERO incarnations (e.g., Justice, Inc.) were similar: options narrowed to facilitate a specific goal.

 

The converse is that HERO (and GURPS) are not particularly good at "out-of-the-box" gaming. You can't just "roll up a fighter", as it were. Parameters need to be set first: starting point totals, characteristic/AP/DC/skill guidelines, and parameters for use of Powers (such as defining a magic system for FH or "super skills" for DC). Then, unless a template is being used, you need to build the PC within those parameters from scratch.

 

One methodology is not superior to the other; they just serve different aims. HERO shoots for maximum flexibility, but the price is speed and complexity. D&D shoots for being playable ASAP, but the price is flexibility, and a certain "black box" aspect to the rules.

[tesuji]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

This seemed relevant as a counter to the usual complaints against HERO's complexity. It's one most of us are familiar with ("The complexity is in chargen, but then in gameplay it's no biggie"), but I thought this was a good expression of it.

 

If it works for you, thats cool, but i think its simply a case of singing to the choir.

 

Have you actually heard players complain about *repetitive* chargen? if not, the maybe the argument that "it only happens once" is actually missing the point of the complex, drawn out chargen gripe?

 

Players don't complain about long detailed chargen as if it happens all the time and keeps sessions dragging on over and over. At least, i haven't ever seen it expressed this way.

 

For Players, its the overhead and workload of chargen. Building the character's stats is "like work" by both method and volume of calculations, and they balk at "how much work it is" to get the mechanical side done.

 

Simply put, It doesn't matter if they only have to endure it once if the once is more than they want to endure.

 

Think of it this way, if, in order to enroll in my game and play, my requirement way you stick your finger into a live electrical outlet, would you feel better about it if i said "but you only have to do it once?"

 

probably not. In suspect you would eye me strangely, politely refuse, and head to a game with less onerous requirements.

 

Now chargen in HERO is not exactly like sticking your finger in a socket (to most people), but unless the player is convinced that their is a worthwhile payoff that means the extra work will prove worth it, then he is likely not going to getb through the first stage. if he has been having plenty of fun with less work, that "its worth it" is a harder sell.

 

Thats for players.

 

For GMs, your argument falls flat really quick. Gms generate characters all the time. When i run games i spend at least once a month on characters, usually more. if the chargen process is long and laborious, that becomes WORK, not FUN, and i tend to either not do it as much as i should or i tend to just not use the chargen system at all. Either irks me and detracts from my enjoyment.

 

Now, don't get me wrong... HERO is not the only system that is too long and cumbersome in chargen for me to enjoy on a regular basis. I have stopped using most D20 because it is also IMO/IMX too involved for chargen. Recent playtesting put me in the position of needing to whip out a dozen 10th level PCs for a session and man-o-man by even the third it was like pulling teeth. (I gotta say, HERO chargen was MORE FUN cuz (with literally now decades of HERO experience) at least I mostly know it by heart and don't have to look stuff up.)

 

Now, to contrast this a little, and harkening back to the work vs fun, at least once every couple of months i get a notion and design a character in HERO-speak because i like the HERO chargen as a sort of mind-puzzle thing and when an intriguing notion hits i think "let's see how i would do that in HERO." Then again, I am wierd that way and my players, mostly, don't do those things for fun.

 

Recently i was pouring thru some Traveller modules which had stats for T20 traveller as their base but also included Classic Traveller stats. The comparison was jarring with 18 lines per T20 write-up and 3 lines per Ct writeup. The jarring part was looking at the 3 lines and realizing "and we played that and it works just fine." I remember more about those characters and their personalities than i do the DND 3.0 guys with pages of stats in am much more recent game or than any of the myriad HERo character ran for years in between. So what good are the extra 15 lines or the even more for a hero guy?

 

Particularly because it's a good argument in *favor* of complexity as long as that complexity pays off in simplicity and enhanced gameplay while in the "campiagn loop". I find this very true in HERO.

 

I have not found such benefits in gameplay. While my gaming groups have varied quite a bit over the years, there ars some core guys who i have had in many different systems over the decades. I find I get BETTER characters, better backgrounds and story driving details when those things are NOT a part of the point-based balance. I get better NPCs in their history when those NPCs are not thought of in terms of "frequency and degree of impairment" first. I get better character personalities and flaws when those are NOT put in terms of "frequency and severity" first and then applied in a nature as in "and this will affect how many dice of attack i can buy."

 

When all those traits are done "just for fun" the choices made are usually "more fun" for everyone involved and less a case of "what i need to tag on to make weight."

 

They are also a lot more fluid when not a part of the point balance eauation and, again IMX, the characters evolve easier and more naturally.

 

So, our experience in the regards of how beneficial the point driven detail is to actual gameplay is very different.

[Alric]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

I have never played it' date=' but isn't Rolemaster almost completely random in terms of CharGen and involves tons of charts?[/quote']

 

That depends on the version your talking about. The most recent edition has completely random, entirely point based, or mixed character generation.

 

RoleMaster does have dozens of charts but most PCs will only need a couple. Each weapon type has it's own chart so you need one for each type you carry. Experienced players quickly realized that play was sped up by sticking to one or two weapons.

 

Later editions helped by including the critcal charts for each weapon on the back of the weapon chart, so you didn't have to go looking for a particular chart.

 

RoleMaster is a strange beast it has a very simple mechanic, roll d100 add your Offensive Bonus and subtract your opponent's Defensive Bonus (sound familliar?), and manages to slow it down with dozens of charts.

 

If the GM is the only one with the charts it's a nightmare to run.

 

The use of the charts does have one advantage though. It automatically incorprates a lot of subtle realism in dealing with different weapons versus different types of armor.

[Warp9]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

If there was a *good* Marvel Superhero game on the market' date=' I'd drop HERO like a rock.[/quote']

LOL

 

That explains a lot!

[Mutant for Hire]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

Here's my objection to long chargen:

 

People play games to roleplay characters. That is where the bulk of the fun is. Character creation is a necessary step towards getting to the fun part, but a lot of people find it !fun or at least far less fun than actual gaming. The longer and more tedious the character building process is, the more likely that someone is going to get discouraged and say "I really don't want to do all this work to get to the fun part".

 

To some extent, I think that a large reason why the RPG industry got started was that 1st edition AD&D had an incredibly fast character creation system.

 

1. Roll up six characteristics

2. Pick a class

3. Pick a race

4. Roll for gold

5. Spend gold on equipment list

6. Write down name and superficial history.

 

It was fast and simple and it got people gaming really fast. That's why a lot of people like the simpler RPGs, because they're fast and allow people to get to the fun pretty quickly.

[Fox1]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

It was fast and simple and it got people gaming really fast. That's why a lot of people like the simpler RPGs' date=' because they're fast and allow people to get to the fun pretty quickly.[/quote']

 

Interesting that such simple RPGs make up such a tiny market share isn't it?

 

I think something got lost in your deductions about the state of gaming.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

it did sort of lead the way, then more advanced games sprung up to exploit advanced markets

[buzz]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

Players don't complain about long detailed chargen as if it happens all the time and keeps sessions dragging on over and over. At least' date=' i haven't ever seen it expressed this way.[/quote']

People do often compain about it on Web fora, however...

 

For GMs' date=' your argument falls flat really quick.[/quote']

It's not my argument; it's a comment from someone talking about some other RPG that I thought was interesting.

 

GMs do more work than players, period. Some GMs can work fast regrdless of system, some can't. My Champions GM ("with literally now decades of HERO experience") of two-odd years seems to be able to come to each game with no notes and does maybe an hour or two of prep during the week prior. I need to spend days prepping for a Buffy one-shot. YMMV.

 

So what good are the extra 15 lines or the even more for a hero guy?

As long as those 15 lines have meaning within the system, I don't see how it matters. This is a preference issue.

 

So' date=' our experience in the regards of how beneficial the point driven detail is to actual gameplay is very different.[/quote']

To clarify, the position this guy put forth is not that the length of time it takes to create a character is irrelevant, ergo we should all be happy to have chargen take forever, but, conversely, that fast is not inherrently good, and lengthy is not inherrently bad. And stating that "if it's not fun, then it's not fun" pretty much goes without saying.