[Rules-fu] Resistant Power Defense

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: [Rules-fu] Resistant Power Defense

 

No question: "Does Killing Damage" is' date=' indirectly, shown by the rules to be a 0-point Advantage -- and apparently, "Does NOT Do Killing Damage" is ALSO a 0-poiny Advantage; therefore, since all attacks do either one or the other, there's no value to either of them, since they're both valuable.[/quote']

 

And the level of value depends on the game. In a 4 colour Champions game, KA's aren't a great idea because killing opponents is frowned uipon. In a hack & slash fantasy game, you'll just slit their throats if they're KO'd anyway. In a Robot Hunter game, more BOD is preferable to more Stun for all those automotons, and who's trying to get a KO anyway?

 

I've fund KA's and EB's fairlyu balanced, but my players tend not to use KA's against anything but inanimate objects and automotons, so "lottery abuse" isn't prevalent. There's certainly a case to be made (and it's in other threads) that getting huge damage past defenses on every third, or even sixth, shot is more than enough (ie too much) to make up for having half your shots be completely ineffectual.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: [Rules-fu] Resistant Power Defense

 

all I have to say about lottery abuse is this...

 

2d6 RKA, piercing, autofure 10

+X CSLs only to counteract called shots to the head

 

ouch....

 

(yes roy...I'm looking at you...)

[TaxiMan]

Re: [Rules-fu] Resistant Power Defense

 

First, I agree that KA and EB are roughly costed appropriately to each other, i.e. KA = 3* EB in cost per die. However, this statement (repeated several times) always confused me:

 

the ability to bypass non-resistent defenses [is] a 0 level advantage.

 

?? I'm sure you don't mean that I can buy a 12d6 EB with "-0: Bypasses Non-Resistent Defenses". That'd be an awesome power, requiring resistant defenses to reduce its impact.

 

I don't know how you can explain the "0 level advantage" thing to me, so feel free not to try (just consider me dense ahead of time!).

[Fox1]

Re: [Rules-fu] Resistant Power Defense

 

?? I'm sure you don't mean that I can buy a 12d6 EB with "-0: Bypasses Non-Resistent Defenses".

 

While it would be in keeping with HERO's apparent view of the advantages and disadvantages of lethal force, I'm not sure that it is something that should be given serious consideration.

 

But if someone could provide a rational reason (not mechanically based, but setting/genre) I don't see a problem.

 

Didn't Fuzion have KA and EB roll the same dice with only this one element being different?

[TaxiMan]

Re: [Rules-fu] Resistant Power Defense

 

Crud, so you really do think that's a reasonable advantage. We're miles apart here.

 

I think one of the reasons KA cost 3 times more per die than EB is that "bypassing non-resistant defenses" is an advantage significantly greater than zero.

 

No way I'll be convinced otherwise. With my current realization that you DO believe so, I'll disregard this entire discussion and simply move on.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: [Rules-fu] Resistant Power Defense

 

it seems to me that KA's don't bypass all defenses that are not resistant. If you have 1 point of resistant defense then all of your defense counts toward the attack.

 

So it costs effectively 1 point for damage resistance to negate the "bypasses non resistant defenses"

 

That's not all that much in the long run.

 

but then I could be mistaken.

[Fox1]

Re: [Rules-fu] Resistant Power Defense

 

No way I'll be convinced otherwise. With my current realization that you DO believe so' date=' I'll disregard this entire discussion and simply move on.[/quote']

 

Math doesn't lie. But you can certainly ignore it if you wish.

[Fox1]

Re: [Rules-fu] Resistant Power Defense

 

but then I could be mistaken.

 

You're correct, with a couple of minor points...

 

Any body over the resistent defense goes through, and a character must take at least 1 stun per point of body damage.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: [Rules-fu] Resistant Power Defense

 

You're correct, with a couple of minor points...

 

Any body over the resistent defense goes through, and a character must take at least 1 stun per point of body damage.

 

that's what I thought, thnx.

 

it would still seem though that it is the defending player that pays the price but then....

 

ok 6d6 energy blast, I need a max of 12 PD or ED to block the body of so that would cost me at most, needing 12 PD or ED, 12 points.

 

a 2d6 RKA I also need 12 PD/ED resistant to block entirely, but this would cost me more than that (at work, not gonna post a number I can't check )

(if I went the Damage resistant route it would cost me 24 points total (for 12 PD or ED))

 

It seems that it is a benifet to require the opponent to buy resistant defenses to defend themselves because it costs them more points to do so...

 

o_O it makes so much sense looking at the attacks from the perspective of an attacker...but it still seems unbalenced looking at the attack from the view of the defender. *falls over*

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: [Rules-fu] Resistant Power Defense

 

I think one of the reasons KA cost 3 times more per die than EB is that "bypassing non-resistant defenses" is an advantage significantly greater than zero.

But as it's been pointed out, an EB and a KA that cost the same amount of points do -- on average -- the same amount of BODY damage.

 

Therefore, the cost per point of BODY done, on average, works out to be the same.

 

KAs don't cost 3x as much per point of BODY damage (effect)...they cost the same per amount of effect as an EB.

 

Is there something I'm missing with this?

 

Seriously.

 

Sure...KAs cost 3x as much per die, but 1d6 of KA is about 3x as effective (amount of BODY done, on average) as 1d6 of EB. So you're paying 3x the cost for 3x the effectiveness.

 

[Fox1]

Re: [Rules-fu] Resistant Power Defense

 

o_O it makes so much sense looking at the attacks from the perspective of an attacker...but it still seems unbalenced looking at the attack from the view of the defender. *falls over*

 

Welcome to the world of game design

 

Let's return to the first Champions ruleset, and the throught processes behind it.

 

The core offensive pricing was driven by what was in effect a value decision- "it is better not to kill or injure".

 

By nature, that concept is of greater value to heroic characters (which Champions intended you to play) than to non-heroic characters. That is, the Masked Marvel may well wish to capture his foes, while the SS has no use for non-lethal ovens.

 

As power pricing is primarily for the players (GMs can have any number of points), and players are assumed to be running heroic characters (in the first version of Champions, even now we don't have Ultimate Villain- yet) it was only natural that the current cost structure was settled on. As with any pricing system- you were not paying for effectiveness, you were paying for value.

 

That's fine for offensive powers, what about defensive?

 

A heroic player may well see the the advantages of being non-lethal, however he can also certainly see that his non-heroic foes will not come to the same conculsion. Thus while he's on the high road, he will likely face lethal fire from the low road.

 

Being able to deal with such is under such conditions a pure advantage with no countering disadvantage (other than the point cost). Thus it is only reasonable to charge for the ability to handle the non-heroic attacks of his foes.

 

 

Any better?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: [Rules-fu] Resistant Power Defense

 

it seems to me that KA's don't bypass all defenses that are not resistant. If you have 1 point of resistant defense then all of your defense counts toward the attack.

 

So it costs effectively 1 point for damage resistance to negate the "bypasses non resistant defenses"

 

It becomes a bit of chicken and egg. Because everyone buys at least some resistant defenses, everyone gets their full defenses against the Stun damage of a KA. Therefore, there is no advantage to the KA's application to resistant defenses.

 

OR

 

Because taking full STUN from all KA's would be hugely disadvantageous, every character buys at least some resistant defenses. Therefore, there is an advantage to the KA's application to resistant defenses.

 

NB: Normals? A 12d6 EB or a 4d6 KA will hospitalize them, so there's no real differentiation there.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: [Rules-fu] Resistant Power Defense

 

all I have to say about lottery abuse is this...

 

2d6 RKA, piercing, autofure 10

+X CSLs only to counteract called shots to the head

 

ouch....

 

(yes roy...I'm looking at you...)

 

1) they wern't piercing

2) He was dual wielding (auto fire 5)

3) 3d6

 

i could drop 3-4 stone giants a round...

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: [Rules-fu] Resistant Power Defense

 

*falls over*

 

::helps up::