Gravity manipulation costs?

[Cancer]

In the published Hero system canon, are there point-cost guidelines for gravity manipulations? I assume this would be an Alter Environment, but I welcome comments about other possibilities.

 

Specific examples:

1. Leave the direction of local gravity unchanged, but alter its strength from its natural value down to zero, including any value inbetween those.
   
2. Simple reversal of direction of the local gravity vector.
   
3. Introduce a new gravity field in the area, directed towards the person/item with the power. Net gravity would be the sum of normal plus this induced field. I'd like this to be of arbitrary magnitude (anywhere from 0 to 30 g's, for example).
   
4. Manipulate the magnitude of the gravity alteration on a phase-by-phase basis, not just turn it on/off with selected value.
   

 

Obviously there's the possibility for lots of collateral damage when this kind of stuff happens, and those collateral effects are an important part of the powers. Yes, I want to include the ability to cause someone to "fall up" against a ceiling; or "fall up" for 10 seconds, then turn the effect off, and let them fall down from the approx 500 meters up, with the attendant effects of either one.

 

Also, I recognize that these should be bought on a per-volume basis, either in terms of per-hex with a definition for the vertical extent of a hex, or a radius to the effect.

 

The character concept I started with had density manipulation and the attendant gravity effects ... and I couldn't figure out how to "cost out" the latter.

[greymankle]

Re: Gravity manipulation costs?

 

Well I always kinda thought of Gravity manipulation as a SFX for Flying or TK. You could just buy an Area of effect TK and have all kinds of fun throwing things and people around.

[MitchellS]

Re: Gravity manipulation costs?

 

As with everything in Hero you need to decide the effects first and then the powers. Most of what you describe is really just telekinesis with the "up/down" limitation.

 

1- Tk, up/down: -1. This allows you to increase the gravity or lessen it to the point where someone is weightless.

 

2- Flight, UAA.

 

3- I really don't know what you're talking about here, but #1 seems to cover it.

 

4- Every constant power requires phase-by-phase concentration and you can manipulate it as you see fit.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Gravity manipulation costs?

 

Well since change environment as a Telekinetic str adder that should do for the whole reorienting the gravity well. As to volume the answer is simple, your character can only override the Earth's gravity well so much and then the object is subject to the greater pull of the earth.

 

Hawksmoor

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Gravity manipulation costs?

 

As with everything in Hero you need to decide the effects first and then the powers. Most of what you describe is really just telekinesis with the "up/down" limitation.

 

1- Tk, up/down: -1. This allows you to increase the gravity or lessen it to the point where someone is weightless.

Not necessarily. Take, for example, someone using Density Increase. In a true zero-g field, he's going to be weightless, the same as the traditional 98 lb. weakling is. (Their masses, and the amount of force necessary to move them, will of course be different. But they'll both be weightless.) Going the TK route to simulate zero-g (by using an "up" TK to balance out the "down" pull of gravity) won't work "right" in this situation if the character using DI ends up weighing more than the TK field can lift. It can reduce his effective weight, but can't make him weightless.

 

A field that actually cut incoming gravitational energy to zero would make everything in it weightless, regardless of mass, density, etc. A field built using TK can't guarantee that.

[MitchellS]

Re: Gravity manipulation costs?

 

Not necessarily. Take' date=' for example, someone using Density Increase. In a [i']true[/i] zero-g field, he's going to be weightless, the same as the traditional 98 lb. weakling is. (Their masses, and the amount of force necessary to move them, will of course be different. But they'll both be weightless.) Going the TK route to simulate zero-g (by using an "up" TK to balance out the "down" pull of gravity) won't work "right" in this situation if the character using DI ends up weighing more than the TK field can lift. It can reduce his effective weight, but can't make him weightless.

 

A field that actually cut incoming gravitational energy to zero would make everything in it weightless, regardless of mass, density, etc. A field built using TK can't guarantee that.

I think what we must look at are degrees of ability. Character A can only manipulate gravity to a certain extent [to degravitize 50 tons]. If character B can increase his mass greater than 50 tons Then A can't control that much counter force.

 

There are no absolutes in Hero. The only person with absolute gravity control would be the one with 390 str TK [the weight of the earth]. Each person manipulates gravity to the extent within his powers. Some people can move mountains, others can barely lift a ball from the ground.

[Mister E]

Re: Gravity manipulation costs?

 

In the published Hero system canon' date=' are there point-cost guidelines for gravity manipulations?[/quote']I don't think so.

 

The major villainess, Gravitar, in CC&C's, has a 135 point 60 STR Telekinesis Power, bought to O END.

 

In the UNTIL-SPDB, Telekinesis comes in weak, at 40 STR for 60 pts; normal, at 50 STR for 75 pts; and strong, at 60 STR for 90 pts.

 

The Affects Whole Object (-1/4) Limitation might be appropriete for many Telekinesis gravity power builds.

[transmetahuman]

Re: Gravity manipulation costs?

 

There's a problem with using TK. Reversing the Earth's gravity in an area would affect any amount of mass, even supertankers.

Flight, Useable As Attack (defense is own Flight powers, maybe holding onto a fixed structure?), Ranged, Area Effect (and maybe Indirect) might be the way to go. Limitation: Can only create straight line vectors which are on a semicircle (or semidisc, more accurately) from vertical (up or down), "towards you", or any combination (to represent vector addition with the Earth's normal pull). As a GM, I wouldn't let that be worth more than -1/4 - Flight UAA is already pretty powerful for the points, and it doesn't limit you a lot. Having to impart the same vector to everything is already part of AOE; being able to modify it phase by phase is I think the default when the base power is Continuous, like Flight - but I think you'd have to take a half phase attack action every phase whether you modify the vector or not. I'm not sure.

 

You might want to add the Affects Porous adder from TK, to affect liquids. I don't think there is any canonical way to affect gasses with TK let alone UAA Flight, but in the comics, gravity manipulators don't really shoot plumes of atmosphere upwards/around anyway.

 

Remember that Flight adds velocity gradually (unlike throwing things with TK) - this actually helps simulate the gravity SFX.

 

Flight UAA straight downwards doesn't really do much to things already on the ground, though. You'll have to figure out the effects you want the extra weight to have on things and make that a seperate multipower slot I guess. Suppress ST, Flight, and Running? Crushing damage? Depends on how you visualize it, and the GM.

[transmetahuman]

Re: Gravity manipulation costs?

 

Another thought is that you're going to probably want a cylindrical AoE instead of a sphere. The GM is going to have to work that out, there isn't one in HERO unless you use the hugely expensive AoE (Any Area).

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Gravity manipulation costs?

 

I think what we must look at are degrees of ability. Character A can only manipulate gravity to a certain extent [to degravitize 50 tons]. If character B can increase his mass greater than 50 tons Then A can't control that much counter force.

 

There are no absolutes in Hero. The only person with absolute gravity control would be the one with 390 str TK [the weight of the earth]. Each person manipulates gravity to the extent within his powers. Some people can move mountains, others can barely lift a ball from the ground.

Quite true. But if gravity is cut off, then it simply stops affecting things, whether they weight 1/50 of an ounce or 50 tons. I suppose this is what you meant by "absolutes": just turning gravity off.

 

In general, the HERO system doesn't do absolutes, and even when it does, there's generally a loophole somewhere (unbreakable foci -- there's an absolute -- must still define one way/place/thing which can destroy them -- there's the loophole).

 

Star Hero uses TK to simulate artificial gravity generators, with 5 STR TK being equal to 1G, with every +5 STR TK being equal to +1G (10 STR TK = 2G, 15 STR TK = 3G, and so on).

 

The definition used in Star Hero is simply the "official convention" for the setting. I wouldn't have any trouble with using that as "official convention" in general. If that were the case, then by "convention" (or GM fiat, take your pick) it requires 5 STR TK, AoE, Only to Counteract Gravity to negate Earth's gravity and make everything in the area weightless, regardless of mass, density, or "weight under normal 1G conditions". If the gravity manipulator is trying to neutralize a gravitational field that's stronger than the Earth's, then they need the higher-STR TK to do it.

 

If you wanted to do it with Change Environment -- the better choice, in my opinion, as that's what you're doing: altering the environment -- it costs 5 points per 1 STR TK that's "active" within the area of the Change Environment. Going by that cost, it would cost 25 points above and beyond the other costs of the Change Environment in order to create a zero-g field (5 STR TK needed to "balance out" 1G; TK is 5 points per 1 STR in Change Environment).

 

I wouldn't have a problem with allowing someone to create a zero-g area using the Star Hero convention and the Change Environment costs as outlined above.

[Cancer]

Re: Gravity manipulation costs?

 

For the most basic form of the power, #2 as I listed it, MitchellS's idea of the Flight UAA probably comes closest to what I want. Define a volume of effect (so there's an Area Effect in there too), and then everything in that volume that isn't tied down to the ground adequately "falls up". When it reaches the top the volume, it accelerates due to normal gravity downward, and so on. You get oscillatory motion, if you sustain the power.

 

(The other versions I listed are almost certainly out of range in terms of costs.)

 

Things with Flight would be at most momentarily inconvenienced by this, but walkers/rollers have motility problems Hmm. That suggests you could do this with a strange area-effect Entangle, if the movement arrestment is all you wanted. I'll think about that, too.

 

Time to talk to the GMs and see what to make of this in terms of cost. And hammer out the results of Area Effect. If I know by a non-targeting sense that MunchkiNinja is in a particular 40-square-meter area, I don't want to have to beat his 15+ DCV with an attack roll. If I have to do that, then time to ditch the character concept and deal with that abomination in a different way.

[Kirby]

Re: Gravity manipulation costs?

 

Specific examples:

1. Leave the direction of local gravity unchanged, but alter its strength from its natural value down to zero, including any value inbetween those.
   
2. Simple reversal of direction of the local gravity vector.
   
3. Introduce a new gravity field in the area, directed towards the person/item with the power. Net gravity would be the sum of normal plus this induced field. I'd like this to be of arbitrary magnitude (anywhere from 0 to 30 g's, for example).
   
4. Manipulate the magnitude of the gravity alteration on a phase-by-phase basis, not just turn it on/off with selected value.
   

I would probably use TK for these in the following manner:

 

For 1 & 2, I think a TK with the limitation of either 'only to pull down' or 'only in the opposite direction of gravity' with a -1 Lim would be sufficient.

 

For #3 create a TK useable at range with a -1 Lim 'only to pull toward designated area'

 

And for #4, maybe a change environment, but it depends on what effects/game mechanics you're going for. An invisible force field might work if you're looking to booster defense.

 

 

There is a great character (villain) in Enemies of San Angelo named Deadweight whose power is to create a 50 STR TK in a 7" AoE radius (Personal immunity, of course). Linked to this is a 25/PD 15 ED invisible force field. If you entered the field, you had to beat a 50 STR TK to keep moving, then there was the addition of taking 10d6 while you were in the 'zone'.