Sleep Spell Design Help

[Wilfred_Death]

hi: I'm trying to create a Sleep spell that fits into my campaign, but I'm having a little trouble understanding Fantasy Hero and FRED when it comes to - Uncontrolled and the like

My Game has fairly low AP cap and most spells usually cost around 5 points

I have a Mana stat for spells which is equivalent to END

 

The affect I wanted to create:

The Mage casts a spell, ( possibly) at a huge drain to himself, He designates an area.

All people In that area Lose Stun, the loss builds up over a period to a set maximum ( about 36 ) They are then asleep, which will last at least 5 Mins, even though their Stun comes back, Any Loud noise, or boot in the head etc will wake them from this sleep.

- If this works out it will probably end up being a death spell -

Most NPCs will be 'Normals' with no Power Defense.

 

What I have Botched together so far is like this:

For 12 Points Character gets this spell:

 

Suppression Field STUN 3d6 (standard effect: 9 points)

(52 Active Points);

Costs END Only To Activate (+1/4),

Invisible to Single Sense, ( Normal Sight ) SFX Only (+1/4),

Uncontrolled (+1/2),

Cumulative (Up to 36 points of stun; +3/4),

Area Of Effect (4" Radius; +1),

Two-Dimensional (-1/4)

OAF Fragile Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; -1 1/4), Increased Endurance Cost (x3 END; -1/2),

Gestures, Requires Gestures throughout (-1/2),

Requires A Magic Skill Roll at -5 (-1/2),

Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (1/2 DCV; -1/2) - 15 Mana per Phase = 60 Mana ( END )

 

The Spell Needs to be invisible to Sight so that the victims don't see a 'Blue Glow' or such like. Can't have Incantations giving the game away, Victims who 'see' the mage will know he's casting a spell, Those using 'See Magic' will see the Spell's effects.

 

I assume that 'Uncontrolled' allows me to define this as : - The Caster uses 60 Mana in one big go ( probably almost collapsing ), and the victims lose stun until they keel over - if they had 36 or less Stun - in 4 Phases Of The Caster.

 

I'm just stymied by this, I know a Sleep spell should cost, because then the PCs can kill everyone, like in D&D, But am I even heading in the right direction?

Few Players would buy this because of the cost, but would like a sleep spell to be available.

 

How Do You do this?

How do you do this so the Targets get to Roll their CON rolls vs your Magic Skill to stay 'awake' ?

[Outsider]

Re: Sleep Spell Design Help

 

Another option would be an AoE Mind Control, single Command "Sleep"

 

You'd probably only need to beat their Ego, or maybe Ego+10, tops, to put em under. Most people dont have Psych Lims or deeply held beliefs that are opposed to sleep.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Sleep Spell Design Help

 

Another option would be an AoE Mind Control, single Command "Sleep"

 

You'd probably only need to beat their Ego, or maybe Ego+10, tops, to put em under. Most people dont have Psych Lims or deeply held beliefs that are opposed to sleep.

 

Well, I think most people would have a deeply held belief that going to sleep is not the appropriate reaction to half a dozen heavily armed hooligans bursting into their residences, so it depends on circumstances. But that guard who's close to nodding off anyway should be pretty easy.

[Outsider]

Re: Sleep Spell Design Help

 

Mentalla Mind Controls Mighty Man with the command, "Freeze!" Since Mighty Man is a brick and wouldn't really mind standing still, the GM determines that this is only an EGO+10 level of effect. Mentalla's Effect Roll is high enough to achieve this effect.

[/Quote]

 

The example under "Mind Control" in the rule book would imply that merely being in the presence of one's enemies is not enough to move the required effect up. If the character doesnt have specific psych lims about the command, and isnt ordered to actively do something he normally wouldn't (like, say, attack his friends) its gonna be EGO +10. Even if it is a bad idea tactically.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Sleep Spell Design Help

 

You don't need Cumulative, as multiple Suppresses can be up at once. However, each one costs END separately to maintain. I'd say you're better off with an EB, NND. Otherwise, the END cost will get even more exorbitant, since you pay END for every 9 Suppressed stun you want to keep going from phase to phase. Stop paying END and all the STUN comes back.

 

Uncontrolled normally allows the mage to dump as much END as he wants, which powers the spell until the END runs out.

 

You do need Continuous to make it constant. You could probably then do without Uncontrolled, since the mage must concentrate, gesture, etc. throughout anyway. He then feeds the spell END each phase.

 

I'd reduce the cost of AoE for 2 dimensional, not reduce the cost of the spell as a whole.

 

And you can't generally combine Increased and Reduced END in the same power.

 

Is that x3 END right? I thought 2x END was -1/2. The bae END would be 5, so that's 15 per phase.

 

What about the following:

 

Sleep

 

3d6 Energy Blast (standard effect: 9 points)

NND - defense is Need not sleep or making a CON roll vs caster's Magic skill (+1)

Invisible to Single Sense, ( Normal Sight ) SFX Only (+1/4),

Continuous (+1/2)

Area Of Effect (4" Radius, 2 dimensional; +3/4),

 

52.5 AP

 

OAF Fragile Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; -1 1/4),

Increased Endurance Cost (x3 END; -1/2),

Gestures, Requires Gestures throughout (-1/2),

Requires A Magic Skill Roll at -4 (-1/2),

Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (1/2 DCV; -1/2)

 

Real Cost 12

 

15 Mana (END) per Phase maintained

 

Creatures with higher Stun will take longer to fall asleep, requiring the spell be maintained longer. The tradeoff is that the STUN stays gone, so the targets stay drowsy for a while after the spell ends (until they can recover the lost Stun).

 

Cost Reductions

Yes, it's expensive. As you note, it covers a big area and KO's opponents. How can it be made cheaper (ie variants on the spell)?:

 

- Reduce the dice. At 2d6, it's AP 35, real cost 8, END 9 per phase, magic roll -3

At 1d6, it's AP 17.5, real cost 4, END 6 per phase, magic roll -2

 

- Make it require 2 handed gestures throughout for another -1/4 limitation

 

- Require concentration to a 0 DCV, and/or shut out the outside world - lower cost, but you're more defenseless when it's in progress. It's not a combat spell anyway when it takes a turn to work.

 

- scrap the Area Effect and make the character target a single person to Sleep at a time

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Sleep Spell Design Help

 

The example under "Mind Control" in the rule book would imply that merely being in the presence of one's enemies is not enough to move the required effect up. If the character doesnt have specific psych lims about the command' date=' and isnt ordered to actively do something he normally wouldn't (like, say, attack his friends) its gonna be EGO +10. Even if it is a bad idea tactically.[/quote']

 

In my opinion, your logic is flawed. Mighty Man is a brick, so standing still doesn't bug him much. He'll just soak up the damage anyway. So it doesn't bother Mighty Man too much to stand still in the presence of his enemies.

 

A brick in my game (also overconfident) routinely says "My DCV is 3. It should be 8, but I don't see this guy as much of a threat, so way waste effort trying to avoid his attacks. They won't hurt me anyway."

 

If he were a Martial Artist, relying on his high DCV to protect him, he'll be opposed to freezing in place.

 

And I, as a typical human being, will be highly opposed to going to sleep in the presence of a guy who doesn't much like me who's brandishing a weapon.

[Outsider]

Re: Sleep Spell Design Help

 

By that logic, Any time you're in the presence of your enemies you'd be at EGO+30 against any mind control they're likely to use on you, since they're your enemies and dont mean you well.

 

Makes Mind Control pretty useless unless it is of the 12D6 (or more) variety.

[steph]

Re: Sleep Spell Design Help

 

for sleep i always use entangle vs ecv

stef

[Cantriped]

Re: Sleep Spell Design Help

 

Personally I would do it as an NND Drain Stun, with a level or two of Deleyed Return Rate, and Probably Continous and Cumalative as well so that once you stop they might stay down for a long time. buhahahahahahahaha.... that would get expensive fast however.

[Curufea]

Re: Sleep Spell Design Help

 

I like the concept of mind control, and enemy presence increasing the difficulty - it means there is more incentive to cast it from hiding/as a suprise. If said guard were unaware of the mage, they would be more inclined to fall asleep.

[MitchellS]

Re: Sleep Spell Design Help

 

I'd go with a single command mind control based on con myself. It just seems to fit better for me over stun and end attacks.

[Scion Zane]

Re: Sleep Spell Design Help

 

or You could use Minor Transform for sleep effect but it get real exspensive

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Sleep Spell Design Help

 

Hmm... interesting specifics.

 

Personally I think that using a Mental Power as the basis for this build would be the most effective way to go. It's already Invisible for any character who doesn't have Mental Awareness, although you could define "See Magic" as being able to detect it since that would be its SFX.

 

Is it necessary for the targets of this attack to lose STUN as part of the effect you want, or is it sufficient that they just fall asleep? If the latter, I think that the suggestion of Mind Control with Telepathic Command, One Command "Fall Asleep!" would handle this best. If you give it the Cumulative Advantage in addition to Continuous you can start with low Base Points, which would keep the Active Point total down; and it would take several Phases to achieve full effect.

 

You could add a custom Limitation, "All effects cease if character is awakened" - based on the circumstances you describe, that should be worth a -1 Limitation. Now, I notice that you want characters to be able to make CON Rolls in order to stay awake. For this you might substitute CON for EGO for purposes of making a Breakout Roll from the Mind Control. Both Characteristics cost the same so at worst this is a Custom +0 Advantage; in fact in most fantasy campaigns characters buy up CON higher than EGO, so it would probably be a -1/4 Limitation.

 

Anyway, that's what comes to my mind at the moment. If that doesn't work for you, please post a followup clarification, and we'll try again.

[Curufea]

Re: Sleep Spell Design Help

 

I view loss of Stun as unconsciousness, not sleep. Loss of Long Term Endurance would be sleep. Or the equivalent.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Sleep Spell Design Help

 

suppress body to put them into a coma (with a limitation if they wake up, they get it all back), and then players can off them fairly easily

[Curufea]

Re: Sleep Spell Design Help

 

Ah - well I completely disagree with that.

 

People asleep are EXACTLY THE SAME as people awake, when it comes to how easy they are to kill.

 

You're trying to D&D-erise something and make it completely unrealistic.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Sleep Spell Design Help

 

Ah - well I completely disagree with that.

 

People asleep are EXACTLY THE SAME as people awake, when it comes to how easy they are to kill.

 

You're trying to D&D-erise something and make it completely unrealistic.

 

i didn't mean that it was supposed to be realistic, i just ment it seemed in DnD that if you made something go asleep then you could kill it by cutting it's throat without any fuss. Or something like that. If you want a more realistic feel, then don't do it like that, i thought he wanted a DnD feel,

[Curufea]

Re: Sleep Spell Design Help

 

Didn't mean to sound so vehement there - I just really, really dislike a certain system and think that prolonging its stupidity by emulating it on better systems, is just asking for trouble ;-p

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Sleep Spell Design Help

 

i think of DnD like the Ren and Stimpy of games, stupid but fun

[Cantriped]

Re: Sleep Spell Design Help

 

I learned to Play on DnD, it has it marits. Anybody can say a system is messed up, but in truth, most are essentially Equal, they were designed with a specific goal in mind, and each has thier own inherent limitations, even hero.

[Curufea]

Re: Sleep Spell Design Help

 

True. I just prefer playing a roleplaying game to playing a glorified videogame.

[Hida Tsuzua]

Re: Sleep Spell Design Help

 

Even not counting stuff from another game, putting people to sleep either makes the combat easier (less targets) or allows you make haymakers with all your levels into damage. Both of which will quickly shorten the lifespan of the targets.

 

As for Ren and Stimpy, the first two seaons where sublimily awesome. The later seasons when the head guy left were horrible.

[Wilfred_Death]

Re: Sleep Spell Design Help

 

Wow Thanks for the help.

The Two options I like best at the moment are:

 

Sleep

3d6 Energy Blast (standard effect: 9 points)

NND - defense is Need not sleep or making a CON roll vs caster's Magic skill (+1)

Invisible to Single Sense, ( Normal Sight ) SFX Only (+1/4),

Continuous (+1/2)

Area Of Effect (4" Radius, 2 dimensional; +3/4),

52.5 AP

OAF Fragile Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; -1 1/4),

Increased Endurance Cost (x3 END; -1/2),

Gestures, Requires Gestures throughout (-1/2),

Requires A Magic Skill Roll at -4 (-1/2),

Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (1/2 DCV; -1/2)

Real Cost 12

15 Mana (END) per Phase maintained

Creatures with higher Stun will take longer to fall asleep, requiring the spell be maintained longer. The tradeoff is that the STUN stays gone, so the targets stay drowsy for a while after the spell ends (until they can recover the lost Stun).

Though I'd add to the Defenses for NND - Does Not Work If On heightened Alert - That is: In Combat, Running around, The Lieutenant is Making them Stand Up Straight etc

 

And

Personally I think that using a Mental Power as the basis for this build would be the most effective way to go. It's already Invisible for any character who doesn't have Mental Awareness, although you could define "See Magic" as being able to detect it since that would be its SFX.

Is it necessary for the targets of this attack to lose STUN as part of the effect you want, or is it sufficient that they just fall asleep? If the latter, I think that the suggestion of Mind Control with Telepathic Command, One Command "Fall Asleep!" would handle this best. If you give it the Cumulative Advantage in addition to Continuous you can start with low Base Points, which would keep the Active Point total down; and it would take several Phases to achieve full effect.

You could add a custom Limitation, "All effects cease if character is awakened" - based on the circumstances you describe, that should be worth a -1 Limitation. Now, I notice that you want characters to be able to make CON Rolls in order to stay awake. For this you might substitute CON for EGO for purposes of making a Breakout Roll from the Mind Control. Both Characteristics cost the same so at worst this is a Custom +0 Advantage; in fact in most fantasy campaigns characters buy up CON higher than EGO, so it would probably be a -1/4 Limitation.

 

I was trying to construct a spell that:

Stealthy PCs could cast into a guard post, after a few turns the guards may be 'Asleep' or disadvantaged in some way, Like being at Low STUN,

They then run in and "Whack" - Post secured sir!

Alert Sentries, well this won't work...

 

I suppose In Dark Champions, this would be represented by a 'Grenade' that puts forth an invisible gas cloud, that may cause stupor, Works on skin contact, ANtidote: Coffee, Or Klaxon sound

 

I am a little loathe to use Mentalism, as In My setting, there are no 'Mental Power' Spells allowed by default - I usually never allow NND either.

 

There was another reason I asked this question:

In my Campaign Setting, :

All Spells Require Mana [ END ] to cast. They may be bought down to Zero END to maintain,

but they count as an active spell, with PCs limited to INT / 5 active spells at any time, Collapse If User Is Unconcious etc.

Also They will always Cost Mana to Start At least.

 

So it's allowable to buy Force Field that costs 40 Mana to Start 0 End to maintain, and it will then run until the PC is stunned, needs to sleep, or not scare the peasants.

 

I was having more trouble with 'Constant' (?) Powers. Some Powers and effects don't seem to be allowed to cost END, Or Have them Built so that it cost END to Start them, Especially END * 5 or such, ANd then have them Cost Reduced END or Even Zero END to maintain.

 

This Is one type of effect where it would be good to 'Pay all the Mana Up Front' then Have the Spell cost Zero Mana, But still count as an Active Spell.

 

Part Of the reason for this, Is that in this setting NPC Mages can 'Club together' and cast a Spell with the same 'Power' But an enormous area of effect. That Is One sides Battle Mages can 'Sleep' whole Battalions.

And Therefore It would be better to build this so that all Mages Perform some Extra Time Ritual and then Lose 60 Mana Each, Then The spell takes affect and the troops advance, whilst the mages go for a drink...

 

The Other Reason Is for Things like Regeneration.

I would Like to be able to create this as a SPell. ( That May cost say 3 Mana Per Phase ),

Without running into the problem Described In 'Fantasy Hero' that because such Powers are Zero END, one casting confers them in perpetuity.

If I just flatly state : "It costs mana anyway" what is the points break?

 

I'd Like to be able to create Regeneration spells that say cost 40 Mana and then the recipient regenerated for X Turns .

And Also ones that Cost Mana as long as the PC was regenerating.

 

Certain Other Spells I think Uncontrolled is good for, and there is an example given for the 'Set someone On Fire' Spell, but I'm still a little confused about it.

 

For the feel of the campaign, Zero End Spells are OK, because you can only have limited numers of spells running. They Can be collapsed by being 'Banged On the Head'. And Most Spells Don't have any effect unless the PC is actually in combat, or trying to interact with NPCs or the Gameworld.

 

Fred The Paranoid Fire mage can have that Fiery Shield On all Day ( with only perhaps LTE loss ), But he can't go to a restaurant in it, guards Harass him, and peasants panic about the Fire Demon....

 

Any further help will be appreciated.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Sleep Spell Design Help

 

It would be pretty easy to go from NND to Ego Blast with the limnitations that it won't affect targets who need no sleep or are on a heightened state of alert.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Sleep Spell Design Help

 

By that logic, Any time you're in the presence of your enemies you'd be at EGO+30 against any mind control they're likely to use on you, since they're your enemies and dont mean you well.

 

Makes Mind Control pretty useless unless it is of the 12D6 (or more) variety.

 

You need to combine the situation and the command. Your logic seems to imply that a person has the same reluctance to sleep when he (believes he) is alone in his bed, or is in a gunfight. Does that make sense?

 

To your other comment, it's not the fact he is your enemy (or, at ;least, not only that), but the command itself. "You're my best buddy - how's about turning around so I can shoot you through the head easier" is very different from "He's the greater threat - better deal with him first."

 

And you CAN use mind control against people who aren't your sworn enemy, by the way. You can also use it from an unseen position so he doesn't know it's you.

 

To my mind, 12d6 Mind Control should be less useful in combat than a 12d6 Energy Blast, given the many non-combat uses for Mind Control, and the relatively few possessed by Energy Blast.