Combo Attacks?

[Enforcer84]

Okay, you may have read my World of Edean thread. It's no where near completion, but I am running out of year. One thing I'd like to add is the option of combo attacks. So, help me out o' players of Chrono Trigger, Xenogears, BOF, and Suikoden

 

How would you model the two (or more) character special attacks?

Simply buy the attack at half (or less) strength for each "member" of the team and combine damage assuming of course that they make their Teamwork and To Hit rolls?

 

Is there a better way?

[Enforcer84]

Re: Combo Attacks?

 

Additionally they can in some cases (Suikoden, and Xenosaga II) combine their spell use into massive spells that often have different effects. Perhaps Characters should be allowed to buy VPP's that require team work use, skill use, and allow for adders and modifiers.

 

Example:

 

Two wizards are combining their spellcasting. They happen to be roughly the same power. they both have 40 PT combo VPPs. The create the "Dragon of the Stars Spell" it causes Holy effect damage to a group of foes (RKA, Selective AE) and Heals the party at the same time (popular in Suikoden 3 & 4) (healing, usable on others x4 to get the entire party)

 

but this makes characters even more expensive (having to buy VPPs for every magic user that they can only use with others...)

 

Dunno..

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Combo Attacks?

 

There are several ways to do this, depending on how the Combos work.

 

One way, each buys a version of the spell with a -1 Limitation that represents that it is a difficult maneuver that requires another person with the "other half" to link up with. Usually included is the Limitations: Gestures (two-handed), and Requires Skill Roll (two skills) or a low Activation roll.

 

If a wizard needs some another mage (any mage) to "draw extra power from". Then you can build a Transfer END to Any One Spell and have that on a trigger that casts right before you cast. This has the Advnatage that if you manage to grab some bad mage, you can drain energy out of him to cast your spell. Really evil wizards transfer BODY into their spells.

 

On the other hand, if Combos aren't inherently trained but something that you want players to encourage to "try and see" what happens, then the GM can construct a Magic Linking Skill (simular to a Power Skill but more generic) and the GM can play it by ear what happens. The mage with the highest Magic Linking Skill rolls, and other mages can be complimentary.

 

Extending or expanding a known spell in a fairly standard fashion (-1)

Extending or expanding a known spell in a clever or usual fashion (-3)

Extending or expanding a known spell in a very unusual or very difficult fashion (-5)

Doing a "never been tried" spell, loosely based on magic theory (-7 or more)

[prestidigitator]

Re: Combo Attacks?

 

Try the, "Requires Multiple Users," Limitation (5ER p. 306).

[zornwil]

Re: Combo Attacks?

 

Try the' date=' "Requires Multiple Users," Limitation (5ER p. 306).[/quote']

Combine that with Blue Jogger's thing and use a Partial Limitation, and make that the basis for all spells that have valid combos. Or you drop it if you don't want the power to combo.

 

You saw my other idea.

 

You could also just do that with skill - something akin to let each caster throw their skill and for each point you can add 5 AP, with a cap of something like half the lesser (or greater if you prefer) power's AP.

 

PS - this latter approach has an interesting side effect you may or may not want in that the unskilled cannot add their powers for greater effect.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Combo Attacks?

 

Okay, you may have read my World of Edean thread. It's no where near completion, but I am running out of year. One thing I'd like to add is the option of combo attacks. So, help me out o' players of Chrono Trigger, Xenogears, BOF, and Suikoden

 

How would you model the two (or more) character special attacks?

Simply buy the attack at half (or less) strength for each "member" of the team and combine damage assuming of course that they make their Teamwork and To Hit rolls?

 

Is there a better way?

I had something of a problem with this myself. I was playing a character who can combine his powers to get new hooks on his powers. The solution is a VPP. Just, in this case, it needs Requires Multiple Users.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Combo Attacks?

 

I had something of a problem with this myself. I was playing a character who can combine his powers to get new hooks on his powers. The solution is a VPP. Just' date=' in this case, it needs Requires Multiple Users.[/quote']

Another way to look at it in a VPP is this.

 

Frog & Chrono's Cross Slash

Chrono Normal Slash (Outside VPP):

2d6-1 HKA, Area of Effect(Line), No Range

 

Chrono Cross Slash (In VPP):

3d6 HKA, Area of Effect(Line), No Range, RSR(Teamwork), Power Fails To Activate if Frog Fails RSR(Teamwork) or Cannot Activate His Cross Slash Power during Same Phase(-2)

 

Frog Normal Slash (Outside VPP):

2d6-1 HKA, Area of Effect(Line), No Range

 

Frog Cross Slash (In VPP):

3d6 HKA, Area of Effect(Line), No Range, RSR(Teamwork), Power Fails To Activate if Chrono Fails RSR(Teamwork) or Cannot Activate His Cross Slash Power during Same Phase(-2)

 

 

The VPP for Combo Powers is Built with: All Powers Must be Based Upon Existing Powers Outside VPP(-1 1/2), All Powers Require Combination of Power with One or More Party(-1)

 

The VPP would be dirt cheap and you could permit players to use the VPP to simulate powers outside the VPP at higher Damage Classes.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Combo Attacks?

 

Another way to look at it in a VPP is this.

 

Frog & Chrono's Cross Slash

Chrono Normal Slash (Outside VPP):

2d6-1 HKA, Area of Effect(Line), No Range

 

Chrono Cross Slash (In VPP):

3d6 HKA, Area of Effect(Line), No Range, RSR(Teamwork), Power Fails To Activate if Frog Fails RSR(Teamwork) or Cannot Activate His Cross Slash Power during Same Phase(-2)

 

Frog Normal Slash (Outside VPP):

2d6-1 HKA, Area of Effect(Line), No Range

 

Frog Cross Slash (In VPP):

3d6 HKA, Area of Effect(Line), No Range, RSR(Teamwork), Power Fails To Activate if Chrono Fails RSR(Teamwork) or Cannot Activate His Cross Slash Power during Same Phase(-2)

 

 

The VPP for Combo Powers is Built with: All Powers Must be Based Upon Existing Powers Outside VPP(-1 1/2), All Powers Require Combination of Power with One or More Party(-1)

 

The VPP would be dirt cheap and you could permit players to use the VPP to simulate powers outside the VPP at higher Damage Classes.

In the above, sample power, Frog and Chrono would get multiple attacker bonuses as well as Suprise Move unless it has been used before. Assuming both hit you would be looking at 3d6(x1d6-1 Stun) + 3d6(x1d6-1 Stun).

 

Sample Roll Up:

4 + 1 + 1 x4. 6 BODY 24 STUN

 

3 + 4 + 5 x5. 12 BODY 60 STUN

 

Target would take 84 STUN for purposes of determining stunning.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Combo Attacks?

 

Ah. This is something I plan to do in the near future and I've considered the mechanics for a while now.

 

If you want to make Combination Attacks impressive in your campaign (in addition to describing their effects dramatically) your characters single special attacks and spells should have an Active Point limit. Combination Attacks and spells can bypass these limits, depending on how many characters are involved.

 

For example, in my campaign, Single character special attacks will have a 60 active point limit. No character can have an attack over this amount. However, for each person after the first in a Combo attack, you can add +30 AP to this limit:

 

2 person Combo: 90 Active

 

3 person Combo: 120 Active

 

4 person Combo: 150 Active

 

5 person combo: 180 Active!

 

For combination attacks, I simply have the players (or myself) build the attack, then split the cost evenly between all the characters involved. This is pretty much equivalent to having a limitation based on the number of characters involved.

 

For example:

 

X-Slash!

4D6 HKA(60) Indirect (+1/4) AE-1 Hex (+1/4) 90 Active

--X2 End (-1/2) Reduced Penetrating (-1/4) Requires two skill rolls [-1/20AP] (-1/2) Real Points: 40. End: 18

 

With the X-Slash combo attack, two characters charge a single enemy at full speed, their attacks intersecting the enemy at the same time. Attacks of this nature are difficult to block and dodge because of the simultaneous attack coming from two different directions. This gives most enemies pause as to which attack they should block or dodge first, giving the attackers the opening they needed.

Both of the characters attacks hit the same location on the enemy, doing damage simultaneously. These attacks have been known to slice even large foes in twain and is known as an almost unbeatable attack. The characters combining their attack must be perfectly coordinated however, and if the timing is off, the advantages of the attack are completely nullified.

Notes:

The attack is written up as a 4D6 hand killing attack. This makes the attack effective enough to lay even the toughest opponent low. The Indirect and Area Effect (1 hex) advantages represent the fact that the attacks are coming from two different directions at once, making it extremely difficult to block or dodge. Though, the attack can be evaded via Dive For Cover as normal (leaping straight up is a good idea)

However, the Reduced Penetrating limitation prevents the damage from being too good. In essence, this is two 2D6 HKA's executed perfectly which allows their Stun damage to be added together for Stunning purposes. The attack requires the attackers to make a successful Teamwork skill roll; if either one fails their roll, the attack is nullified.

Both the Real cost of the power, and the Endurance cost are split between the characters who purchase this Attack.

 

Thats how I plan to handle things...for now.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Combo Attacks?

 

i like the VPP idea, maybe add "requires skill: teamwork" to change, if you need to make it cheaper

[Markdoc]

Re: Combo Attacks?

 

One other possibility os to let people buy Aid - with an increased maximum plus trigger "only for Combo Attacks" -1? -2? - it's pretty limiting. That way you can max out the Aid ahead of time, and then unleash it as a combo when it's needed.

 

cheers, Mark

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Combo Attacks?

 

But Aid won't always do the trick. Merle can heal a single target. Chrono can do a spin attack. Together, they can do a group heal.

[zornwil]

Re: Combo Attacks?

 

But Aid won't always do the trick. Merle can heal a single target. Chrono can do a spin attack. Together' date=' they can do a group heal.[/quote']

Weird...okay...I didn't realize you wanted to combine completely different attacks. The first thing to acknowledge is that innately Hero doesn't really handle this at all, so whatever solution you pursue you're on your own, I think.

 

Let's break it down first...what are the rules, to the extent they exist, on how this works, mechanically? Since I assume this is based on some collection of fantasy fiction, what are the examples you'd cite?

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Combo Attacks?

 

Weird...okay...I didn't realize you wanted to combine completely different attacks. The first thing to acknowledge is that innately Hero doesn't really handle this at all, so whatever solution you pursue you're on your own, I think.

 

Let's break it down first...what are the rules, to the extent they exist, on how this works, mechanically? Since I assume this is based on some collection of fantasy fiction, what are the examples you'd cite?

 

This is actually based on a staple of Japanese RPG videogames such as Final Fantasy, though FF does not use Combo attacks (as of yet, I'm sure its coming at some point in the future)

 

In some of these games, such as SquarEnix's SaGa series (Romancing SaGa, SaGa Frontier, Unlimited SaGa [ick]) combination attacks are simply two or more characters special attacks done in rapid succession to build big damage on the enemy. This can easily be handled in HERO as a simple Coordinated Attack

 

However, in most JRPG's that support "Combo Attacks", characters combine their powers to form unique, flashy attacks to produce ridiculous amounts of damage.

 

The SNES game Chrono Trigger (another Square creation) is the most popular example of this type, though since Chrono Trigger, there have been many games that emulate its take on Combo Attacks. A short list of which includes:

 

Chrono Trigger

Phantasy Star IV (did it before Chrono)

Persona III: Eternal Punishment (known as Persona II in the U.S.)

Suikoden

Suikoden II

Grandia Xtreme

Grandia III (just released in Japan, should hit the states in a few months)

Tales of Symphonia

Tales of Rebirth

Tales of Legendia (latest Tales game, not sure if it has combos, but probably will)

Suikoden III

Suikoden IV

XenoSaga II: Jensuit von Gut und Bose

Legend of Legaia: Duel Saga

 

And thats just off the top of my head.

 

In some of these games, characters combine their basic Special attacks into one Super special attack...the Combo resembles a combination of their basic specials, but SFX and damage have been increased dramatically. Though in some games, characters combine to form something completely different from any of their specials all together. A good example of which is Grandia Xtreme. While GX is considered the weakest of the beloved Grandia series, it was the first game in the series to introduce Combo attacks to what was already considered the finest combat system amongst JRPG's. In my opinion, Grandia Xtreme handles these Combo attacks better than just about any other RPG out there (continuing the tradition of Grandia having the most kick *** combat system) although they are not as pretty as other JRPG combo attacks (the prettiest and most damaging? XenoSaga II, by a long shot) They run the gamut from characters trading blows on the same enemy, to Healing all party members to Strengthening the party's defenses and everything in between. Combo's range from 2 characters to 4 characters (the most allowed in combat at once) and the 4 character combos can be quite spectacular.

 

This is why I suggest that players be allowed to build their characters "Combo Attacks" as a high active point power, then split the real point cost between all the characters that can perform the combo. Needing more than 1 character to perform an attack is a pretty big disadvantage, considering several factors:

 

1: Both characters must want to perform the attack. If character A wants to use Starlight Fury and Character B does not, guess what? It doesn't happen

 

2: Both characters must be active and able to perform the combo: If one character is short on Endurance...problem! If one character has been grabbed...no go. Unconsciouss or Stunned? Fagettaboudit!

 

3: Both characters must succeed in any skill rolls required to activate the power. If there's active point penalties, these can get hefty as such powers oftentimes have high active point costs. (90 or more)

 

4: And as always when coordinating attacks, the faster character must wait for the slower character before they can perform their attack...allowing a fast enemy a chance to attack which can interfere in the combo.

 

Lots of variables in there. Many things can happen in the confusion of combat that can prevent a Combo attack from happening...but when they do...

 

BOOM!

[Enforcer84]

Re: Combo Attacks?

 

Well put, my friend.