Overland Movement

[prestidigitator]

Okay. I'm having trouble with overland movement in a heroic setting. Specifically it is fantasy, so character and mount movement is going to matter like it wouldn't where there are prevalent vehicles. I'd like to resolve the amount of overland movement in such a way as to minimize the amount of arbitrariness and house rules.

 

The question is: given a flat, wide open landscape in which a character has to avoid no obstacles (wide open plains, for example), what kind of movement can a character maintain for hours on end?

 

The only standard mechanics that come close to providing a system--and that I think would be nice if they scaled correctly--are the Long Term End rules. However, if you take an average normal and give him a +1 Rec, he can sprint at full speed indefinitely: 6" of Running doubled for NCM costs 1 End/Phase or 2 End/Turn, which is less than half of a 5 Rec, so there is no Long Term End loss. That character, by the way, is moving at 4 m/s ~= 15 kph ~= 9-10 mph. I say sprinting because there is literally no way for an average normal to move any faster without changing his stats; if NPCs they shouldn't be able to Push, and even PCs should only be able to in very dramatic circumstances.

 

I've considered expanding the Long Term End chart upwards, like:

1/2 to 1/4 Rec/Turn -> 1 LTE/20 min

1/4 to 1/8 Rec/Turn -> 1 LTE/hour

etc.

and changing Non-Combat Movement to cost End by default. This approach might be nice, but it still leaves fit heros with an enourmous overland speed at minimal LTE loss that can basically be ingored by most heros.

 

I'm also considering just taking half a character's Running as, "Casual Running," but this would basically ignore the health and fitness (Con, End, Rec) of a character. I suppose I could come up with some system for making Con rolls if, "Casual Running," is exceeded, but I think any system I came up with would be pretty arbitrary. The positive thing is that horses, while their Rec is only at the high normal range, do tend to have high Running and very good Con scores, so this could work well for measuring out the benefits of mounted overland movement.

 

Have you used any systems for overland movement that you are happy with? Any ideas?

[MitchellS]

Re: Overland Movement

 

Back when I played Fantasy Hero we used a very basic system of: inches of combat Movement x speed was the miles the character could easily walk/hike per day. Each 2 miles beyond that point cost the character 1 LTE. Also each point of END from encumbrance cost +1 additional LTE per 2 miles.

 

Gonad the Barbarian has 8" of running and a 3 speed. Gonad can hike 24 miles without fatigue. If Gonad needs to hike 40 miles the additional 16 miles cost him 8 LTE [16/2=8]. If Gonad is carrying between 25-49% of his encumbrance value the weight costs him an additional 20 LTE [40/2=20]. When Gonad arrives he only has 18 of his normal 46 END to use unless he rests.

[Fitz]

Re: Overland Movement

 

That seems to me to be a good system, and one I think I'll steal immediately with one minor change: the "miles" become some kind of arbitrary movement units, eerily similar to one mile over easy terrain (e.g. open plain). Movement in other terrain types would use shorter or longer movement units; for example, on good roads they might be 1.5 times longer, while in dense jungle they might be only 0.25 times as long as the base unit.

 

I'd say that for playability purposes, terrain could probably be broken into about four categories:

1. Very easy: x1.5 (good roads)
   
2. Easy: x1 (open plain or pasture, or a reasonably clear track)
   
3. Difficult: x0.5 (forest, broken country etc.)
   
4. Very difficult: x0.25 (dense brush or jungle, marsh or swamp, mountains etc.)
   

 

You could get more specific, but I don't think it would add much to the game.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Overland Movement

 

That seems to me to be a good system, and one I think I'll steal immediately with one minor change: the "miles" become some kind of arbitrary movement units, eerily similar to one mile over easy terrain (e.g. open plain). Movement in other terrain types would use shorter or longer movement units; for example, on good roads they might be 1.5 times longer, while in dense jungle they might be only 0.25 times as long as the base unit.

 

I'd say that for playability purposes, terrain could probably be broken into about four categories:

1. Very easy: x1.5 (good roads)
   
2. Easy: x1 (open plain or pasture, or a reasonably clear track)
   
3. Difficult: x0.5 (forest, broken country etc.)
   
4. Very difficult: x0.25 (dense brush or jungle, marsh or swamp, mountains etc.)
   

 

You could get more specific, but I don't think it would add much to the game.

 

Why change the unit from miles? Your system is a good idea and can work easily with miles.

 

Easy Terrain = standard milleage.

Very Easy Terrain = 1.5x as many miles.

 

If you can travel 10 miles a day on easy terrain, you can travel 15 miles on very easy terrain. No need to change the semantics unless you game has another name for 'mile.'

[prestidigitator]

Re: Overland Movement

 

Why change the unit from miles?

Because the whole rest of the system uses metric units, as does most of the world?

 

Er, oh. Sorry. I know you were really saying why go to an arbitrary measure. I just couldn't help it.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Overland Movement

 

Because the whole rest of the system uses metric units, as does most of the world?

 

Er, oh. Sorry. I know you were really saying why go to an arbitrary measure. I just couldn't help it.

 

 

thpppttt!!!!

 

Clicks then.

[Fitz]

Re: Overland Movement

 

If you use an arbitrary unit, then you can apply multiple transformations to it without having to change the base value.

 

In plain speech, that means that you can state your movement in miles, kilometres, leagues, li or whatever you like, and apply variables based on terrain, weather conditions, visibility and what-not without having to fiddle with multiple base values.

 

I know there's no effective difference between using an arbitrary measure and a predefined one, but in the spirit of keeping the rules as generic as possible I prefer not to use values specific to any particular nation or culture if I can avoid it.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Overland Movement

 

you mean like "inches" ?

 

 

and the System already uses the KM for large distances (I point to Megascale)

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Overland Movement

 

It's been pointed out before that the metric system, while fine for modern games, and great for sci-fi, just doesn't work that well with fantasy or most historical times, for aesthetic reasons.

 

I seem to recall an old ICE era supplement that had overland movement based on REC. I think it was Ancient Greece or Mythic Greece or something like that.

 

Pros: It resulted in decently realistic movement rates, it was easy to implement (REC*multiplier = so far per hour)

 

Cons: IIRC a character with a slow Running rate and high REC could move faster overland than they could in combat, similarly a character with more moderate Running and REC could effectively sprint all day, moving at near max Running

 

It would be worth looking at, though, if someone happens to know what I'm talking about and can provide more detail.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Overland Movement

 

you mean like "inches" ?

 

 

and the System already uses the KM for large distances (I point to Megascale)

Yeah. Actually I always think of them as, "hexes," not, "inches." Nevermind that they use the double tick that the English system uses to differentiate inches and that are also commonly used to denote arc-seconds (angle, 1/3600 degree). Good point, though. I'm just a good selective thinker.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Overland Movement

 

One option...

 

Use CON rolls instead of LTE.

 

Choose an appropriate time interval: say 1 hour for normal 'casual' movement, and at the end of each hour, make a CON roll, and if you fail then you need to slow down: deduct the amount you failed by from your move rate, until you rest properly. Each hour, roll again, with a cumulative -1 penalty to the roll for each hour of movement and all penalties to movement are cumulative until you rest properly.

 

Resting means 8 hours sleep - you recover all accumulated move and CON roll penalties. 1 hour removes accumulated CON roll penalties, but not move rate penalties, which is a pretty good reason to stop for lunch.

 

For easy terrain you might want a roll every other hour, and you can allow a bonus to the roll for each 1" you voluntarily reduced your speed by - you are taking it easy.

 

OTOH, if the terrain is difficut, increase the frequency of the rolls - every 20 minutes or even less if you are, say, hacking through jungle, or apply further penalties to the CON roll.

 

You can, if you feel the need, translate the CON roll penalties into LTE: each 1 point of penalty is equal to 5 LTE.

[LordGhee]

Re: Overland Movement

 

I always let player make an apropriate skill and complainmentry rolls to increase distance. Area knowledge became very important, at sea Knowledge of currents help ect. Riding keeps animals in shape ( ride, run with, mount, and ride walk).

[Talon]

Re: Overland Movement

 

I've considered expanding the Long Term End chart upwards, like:

1/2 to 1/4 Rec/Turn -> 1 LTE/20 min

1/4 to 1/8 Rec/Turn -> 1 LTE/hour

etc.

and changing Non-Combat Movement to cost End by default. This approach might be nice, but it still leaves fit heros with an enourmous overland speed at minimal LTE loss that can basically be ingored by most heros.

 

I did this (or something quite like it) and found that the numbers matched up well with real-life. It had the added bonus of working at different scales (i.e., it was easy to come up with LTE loss and movement per 10m, 100m, etc., for medium-scale scenes).

 

Here is the end result (i.e., calculations taken out, designed for ease of use by players).

 

I also used an exhaustion house rule (penalties accrued at 3/4, 1/2, and 1/4 of max END), so that burning too much LTE would have immediate consequences. You don't need that rule to make this work, but it did help.

 

Obviously, if you use rules like these, Reduced Endurance on movement becomes very, very useful.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Overland Movement

 

That looks really good, Talon. One criticism I have for you, though, is that the 0s in the upper right corner of the table (where the low REC guys are really weighed down) should probably be a fractional hex, so that your later modifiers (such as for increased or decreased speed or for characters with Reduced END) will work out. Obviously, if a character can carry the weight at all, he can carry it some marginal distance regardless of how slowly he gets his wind back after exertion.

 

At any rate, I'm keeping a copy.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Overland Movement

 

That's not bad. I think that, particularly for travel, I am going to calculate LTE loss based on Active Points used per Turn rather than End Cost. There isn't much difference except that it will give greater granularity. Even though they don't normally cost End, I am going to include NCM Multiples and Speed (above the default out-of-combat value of 2) toward the Active Points used. I will provide an Advantage to overcome this (though it will likely have limited access in a heroic campaign--maybe only available through magic).

 

So, for example, if you use 10*Rec (normally an End Cost equal to Rec) in Active Points per Turn, you will lose 1 LTE per minute. Each halving of Active Points will move one level down on the Time Chart. I am in the process of developing a system for, "Pushing," this (though it isn't really Pushing because it is based on Con not Ego, heros and even normals can do it in situations that aren't extremely dramatic or heroic, etc.).

 

I want riders to be able to push their mounts (the mounts will suffer the brunt, though the rider may tire a bit as well), which will likely use a Complimentary mechanic. I am working on a way to make this realistic in that mounts may be ridden into utter exhaustion and even death, and I'm not sure that simply using up all End and moving on to Stun is sufficient.

 

Oh, and this LTE loss will simply be in addition to the standard amount lost due to Encumberance.

[LordGhee]

Re: Overland Movement

 

Horses will run themselves to death, this might be a limation or a disadvantage? A camels's owner who is riding out thier camel would build a fire under them to get the animal moving one last time. the desert is a harsh place and 2 miles that you dont walk in an emergency is 2 miles.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Overland Movement

 

...The metric system is the tool of the devil. I get 40 rods to the hog's head' date=' and thats the way I likes it![/quote']

 

Err...what?

 

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Overland Movement

 

I seem to recall an old ICE era supplement that had overland movement based on REC. I think it was Ancient Greece or Mythic Greece or something like that.

 

Pros: It resulted in decently realistic movement rates, it was easy to implement (REC*multiplier = so far per hour)

 

Cons: IIRC a character with a slow Running rate and high REC could move faster overland than they could in combat, similarly a character with more moderate Running and REC could effectively sprint all day, moving at near max Running

I kind of like that (apart from the last bit about being able to sprint all day). After all, it seems to me OTTOMH, that combat *running* speed, i.e., how fast you can maneauver around on the battlefield, has very little to do with how fast you can walk/hike cross-country. In boy scouts, I went on a lot of hikes, often with heavy backpacks and I did OK, but I'm not very fast at all running. Sprinting and marathon running are very different skills, as are marathon running and hiking.

 

Somewhere (on these boards?) I remember seeing someone post actual historical data about how far people can travel in a day on horseback, on foot, by carriage, etc. - not combat speeds, but travel speeds. How long does it take to get to the next town?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Overland Movement

 

That's not bad. I think that, particularly for travel, I am going to calculate LTE loss based on Active Points used per Turn rather than End Cost. There isn't much difference except that it will give greater granularity. Even though they don't normally cost End, I am going to include NCM Multiples and Speed (above the default out-of-combat value of 2) toward the Active Points used. I will provide an Advantage to overcome this (though it will likely have limited access in a heroic campaign--maybe only available through magic).

 

So, for example, if you use 10*Rec (normally an End Cost equal to Rec) in Active Points per Turn, you will lose 1 LTE per minute. Each halving of Active Points will move one level down on the Time Chart. I am in the process of developing a system for, "Pushing," this (though it isn't really Pushing because it is based on Con not Ego, heros and even normals can do it in situations that aren't extremely dramatic or heroic, etc.).

 

I want riders to be able to push their mounts (the mounts will suffer the brunt, though the rider may tire a bit as well), which will likely use a Complimentary mechanic. I am working on a way to make this realistic in that mounts may be ridden into utter exhaustion and even death, and I'm not sure that simply using up all End and moving on to Stun is sufficient.

 

Oh, and this LTE loss will simply be in addition to the standard amount lost due to Encumberance.

I still haven't decided about mounts, but for pushing the amount of movement here's how I think it will work. You can push each limit (hourly, six-hour, etc.) by making a Con roll at a -1 per increment on the time chart longer than an hour. The amount this increases the AP limit is the same as for normal Pushing (+5 APs if the roll succeeds, +1 per point by which it succeeds). Before you attempt the roll, you must decide the time period for which you are going to march. If the roll fails, you immediately lose an extra 1 LTE from pushing yourself too hard and cannot attempt to push your movement again until this time period elapses (or maybe I will penalize further rolls in this period).

Example

Mirtim has a Rec of 6. The LTE he loses for various movements is as follows (base is 1/min at 10*Rec=60 APs/Turn):

AP/Turn  hexes/Turn   kph    -1 LTE per...
-------  ----------  -----   -------------
 60         30      15        1 minute
 30         15       7.5      5 minutes
 15          7       3.5     20 minutes
  8          4       2        1 hour
  4          2       1        6 hours

He is going to march 6 hours and decides that: 1.) he cannot afford to lose 6 LTE (in case he must fight at some point), and 2.) 6 km is not far enough. So he is going to try to push his limit. If he makes a Con roll (at a -1 penalty since he is making the roll for 6 hours) exactly the 6-hour AP limit will go up by 5 to a total of 9, which comes to 4" of movement or 2 kph (so he will cover 12 km). If he makes the roll by +1 the AP limit goes up to 10 for 5" movement and 2.5 kph (15 km). If he fails the roll he will immediately lose 1 LTE and have to decide whether to wear himself out by losing 6 more LTE (total loss of 7) or cover only 6 km during the 6 hours he marches for only 1 more LTE (total loss of 2).