I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

[ghost-angel]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

Maintaining balance, again, is the priority.

 

It's fine with me if the lesser of the two is the base form, as long as the lesser has a point total max equal to the starting limit [350] minus the multiform cost [say 70, assuming no lims on it].

 

So Dr. Banner is worth 280pts, and must pay 70pts for The Hulk [leaving him with 210pts to build with]. The Hulk may be up to the campaign starting max [350], but may only add XP as Dr. Banner gets it, not any faster. That way the Hulk is equal to the rest of the group and Dr. Banner is a sidekick in comaprison.

 

Granted, point wise this only works to start, but keeps the balance fine if Hulk is being kept equal to the other characters.

 

I think this will cause more problems with players than fix "in the name of balance"

 

If a game is 350pts then Banner should be 350pts., if he were to build his Hulk form on the same base points and come up with a 350pt. character then Banner is 280pts + 70pts of Multiform = 350pts. plus a 350pt Hulk.

 

Yes, the Player has two 350pt Characters - but can only be one at a time. Duplication, for instance, allows a Player to have two 350pt Characters At The Same Time (really 2 280pt Character once the Duplication cost is factored in, but that is, IMO, the price of having two Character "On The Board" at the same time.)

 

If you put your restriction on Mulitform I would recommend you place the same restriction on Duplication.

 

Don't use the "points" or "rules" against a Player trying to realize a Character Concept by taking points away from them. What happens if they're using Multiform to create a Morphing Armor which is really reconfigured versions of an Energy Blaster? Are they really going to be stepping on any one elses toes, or possibly ruining the game that way?

 

I'm am Always (ALWAYS) against any "meta-rule" that could easily be resolved by 1) restraint on the part of Player at creation, 2) Control of the game on the part of the GM, and 3) Cooperation Between Player and GM.

 

I have a shapeshifting brick with 4 Other Forms, 1 is less points than the True Form, 1 about equal to, and 2 are higher points than the True Form and I have yet to once ever upset game balance with my constructions. My and GM and I sat down and went over what I was doing, made sure I wasn't outside campaign guidelines in any powers on any forms and made sure nothing I did broke the game being played. Technically I have about 4x the Points of everyone else at the table if you stack all the forms side by side by side. Taken one shape at a time I am on par with everyone else Power Level-wise.

 

Balance, in any game, will ultimately not come from the points/rules/whatever but from the Players and GM and the interaction between the two At The Table and In The Game.

 

I've seen games where 350pt Characters were mixed with 700pt Characters with no problems at all. I fail to see how this one concept is so horrible that people can't allow for it.

[radioKAOS]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

I think this will cause more problems with players than fix "in the name of balance"

 

If a game is 350pts then Banner should be 350pts., if he were to build his Hulk form on the same base points and come up with a 350pt. character then Banner is 280pts + 70pts of Multiform = 350pts. plus a 350pt Hulk.

 

Perhaps I am shortsighted in this, but could you explain to me what problems it could possibly create? It's very 'in genre' for the good Doctor to be way outpowered by the other members of the team. When he transforms he's usually among the more powerful of the group [if not the most powerful], granted, but where's the fairness in that? I would think it would cause more problems allowing a 700pt multiform 'Hulk' character in a 350pt game than it would to scale it down and make Banner 210pts. Seems to me a 210pt 'Doctor' is a pretty useful character on his own.

 

 

Yes' date=' the Player has two 350pt Characters - but can only be one at a time. [/quote']

 

Yes, of course, but he can choose which to be in which situation, and that's a huge advantage in itself. Need a doctor? Switch forms! Oh, need the Hulk to Smash? Switch again! Have all the utility of a second character at your fingertips!

 

And no, I'm not saying to get rid of multiform, just that having 2 distinct characters to choose from on a pretty instant basis is quite the advantage.

 

I'm am Always (ALWAYS) against any "meta-rule" that could easily be resolved by 1) restraint on the part of Player at creation' date=' 2) Control of the game on the part of the GM, and 3) Cooperation Between Player and GM.[/quote']

 

Agreed there. I'm not asking you to take what I've said as a rule, just that I use that as a guideline for myself, in other people's games, because I think it's the most fair way of doing things. I was making a point, not telling people what to do, just giving an option. I was of the midset that the base form should be the highest point total character and that the base form should fit within the guidelines of the campaign, but hey, that's just the 4th Ed talking. I think my option is a viable alternative to the highest point form having to pay for the multiform.

 

Balance' date=' in any game, will ultimately not come from the points/rules/whatever but from the Players and GM and the interaction between the two At The Table and In The Game.[/quote']

 

Agreed again.

 

I've seen games where 350pt Characters were mixed with 700pt Characters with no problems at all. I fail to see how this one concept is so horrible that people can't allow for it.

 

Well if that hasn't caused problems between players/characters in terms of balance, I don't know how you can possibly say that my idea would... I'm speaking of a difference of 0pts [for the highest point form] and 140pts [for the lower of the two].

 

140pt difference vs. 350pt difference... *shrug*

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

Perhaps I am shortsighted in this' date=' but could you explain to me what problems it could possibly create? It's very 'in genre' for the good Doctor to be way outpowered by the other members of the team. When he transforms he's usually among the more powerful of the group [if not the most powerful'], granted, but where's the fairness in that? I would think it would cause more problems allowing a 700pt multiform 'Hulk' character in a 350pt game than it would to scale it down and make Banner 210pts. Seems to me a 210pt 'Doctor' is a pretty useful character on his own.

 

I don't think anyone is saying Banner and Hulk are built on the same points. Banner was "built to concept" and spending his way up to 200+ points, much less 280 points, would be out of character.

 

And I agree that allowing Banner to be built on 210 points + 140 points for a 700 point multiform (or 50 points + 300 for a 1500 point form) would be hugely unbalanced.

 

Banner's an even poorer example for the fact that he (in most incarnations) lacks full control over the multform. Slap, say, a -1/2 limitation on and he can now spend 300 points for a 2,250 point form.

 

But Banner/Hulk are designed by a writer, who doesn't pooint whore maximum effectiveness out of the character. Really, if we want to point whore, our "Banner" should have about 300 points invested in an unlimited Multiform of 1,500 points. Clearly abusive and, as you say, any reasonable GM is going to squelch the concept pretty quick.

 

Yes' date=' of course, but he can choose which to be in which situation, and that's a huge advantage in itself. Need a doctor? Switch forms! Oh, need the Hulk to Smash? Switch again! Have all the utility of a second character at your fingertips![/quote']

 

That's one aproach, and I agree that having an array of 350 poiint characters to choose from would be a power balance problem. But many characters (and the Hulk is one of them) have limits on their multforms. Neither Banner nor Hulk will voluntarily switch in most incarnations. Consider a character of the "Dial H for Hero" variety - a near-infinite number of forms, but he gets one that's randomly selected, not the best one for the situation at hand. Is there a compelling reason his forms should be restricted significantly?

 

I also agree with the comment that you need to consider a similar restriction for Duplication. Let me provide you with an example. Rather than build Hulk/Banner as a Multiform, assuming I am out to point whore, why don't I:

 

- buy Duplication, forms differ completely (+1), 4 doublings of duplicates (16 duplicates) for some 350 point duplicates - cost 180 points

 

- "Banner" will spend his remaining 180 points on some skills, and a lot of defenses/regeneration. He doesn't need attack powers, stats, etc. so he can probably be prety well defended and still have lots of skills.

 

So we now get to have 180 point "puny banner" (30 points les than your example) who, instead of having a single 350 point form to morph into, has 16 different 350 point forms, which can all be in play at the same time. UGH!

 

Or maybe I could buy:

 

- Summon 1 slavishly loyal creature ("Hulk") for 140 points.

 

- build Banner on 150 points...hmmm...I have 60 points left.

 

- buy 6 doublings on my Summon and have 64 Hulks in play at the same time.

 

- or buy up the MF to 180 points and have a 500 point Hulk.

 

I'm not saying you, or anyone else, would allow these constructs - whether "in concept" or not, they would clearly be unbalanced in game. I am saying that there are both several other powers which can unbalance the game as much as an unfettered multiform, and that any restriction I place, in the broad scheme, on multiform will likely:

 

- prevent a concept which would not have been abusive, as well as concepts which would have been.

 

- fail to prevent some manner of abusive concept (and now they can say "but I followed all your rules")

 

Better to rule on a case by case basis, rather than impose an arbitrary rule on everyone.

[Sean Waters]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

I vaguely recall that if you used to want a multiform or dupe with more than the points you have to build a character in the campaign, anything OVER the starting points was paid for on a 1 point for 1 point basis, not 1 for 5.

 

No idea how long ago that was: not like that now, apparently. Certainly works as a balancing mechanism and is pretty straightforward for starting characters. Gets hairier when you start gaining experience, but nothing's perfect, eh?

 

Interestingly, although I'm sure no one would ever do this, you could build the Hulk as a straight character and control whether he is Banner or Hulk just using disadvantages. Accidental change, physical lims 'weak when banner' and 'animalistic when Hulk'. Not a points efficient solution, but it could be done.

 

The thing that, to my mind, mitigates in favour of multiform is that he looks very different in the two forms. Changing appearance is something you normally have to pay for, but with multiform you get it for free.

[ghost-angel]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

I vaguely recall that if you used to want a multiform or dupe with more than the points you have to build a character in the campaign' date=' anything OVER the starting points was paid for on a 1 point for 1 point basis, not 1 for 5.[/quote']

 

5E no longer has that restriction... of course at creation if you want Multiform over the base you're taking on additional Disadvantages to the form.

 

After creation experience is spent normally on the Multiform at a 1-5 ratio without needing additional Disads. The book suggests that a Player spend only 1 of every 5 points of experience he gets on Multiform to keep balance in place.

[Diamond Spear]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

I think what it comes down to is that the choice to use multiform should always be based on a character’s concept; i.e. two vastly different personalities/forms inhabiting the same body. Otherwise use OHID or duplication. This is one of those areas where, IMO, the system puts its trust in the GM and players to not abuse the rules.

[Fox1]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

The thing that' date=' to my mind, mitigates in favour of multiform is that he looks very different in the two forms. Changing appearance is something you normally have to pay for, but with multiform you get it for free.[/quote']

 

He also has two completely different minds in the two forms. HULK NOT ROCKET BRAIN, HULK SMASH!

 

Anyone who doesn't build him with Multiform likely couldn't beat him at tic-tac-toe, and I'm not even sure the Hulk knows the rules to that.

 

 

Edit: unless of course you're doing a version of him when Banner did keep his mind while the Hulk. One of many bad ideas that flowed thru Marvel.

[prestidigitator]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

Maybe Multiform should be abolished and you should just have a, "Psychic Bond," Mind Link between two completely different characters who have Desolidification (attack is any attack that affects the other character, but only in relative amounts of Body/Stun) with a custom Limitation that says either one or the other character's Desolidifications should be on at any given time (a combination between Lockout and Always On). So we have:

Mind Link: my other form, Psychic Bond

 

Desolidification: affected in relative amounts by attacks that hurts my other form;

Reduced End Cost: 0 End (+1/2);

Persistant (+1/2);

One Always On: my Desolidification or my other form's Desolidification (-3/4);

then the player just builds two characters as if he were going to play them seperately, except that they both (all) have these powers.

 

Duplication could be built with the Desolidification Limitation reduced to simply an inter-character Lockout (and possibly with the Mind Link Linked to the Desolidification for characters that cannot freely commune with their duplicates while they are seperate).

 

(I'm being a little facetious here, if you couldn't tell.)

[Fox1]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

(I'm being a little facetious here' date=' if you couldn't tell.)[/quote']

 

I'm glad you put this in, because I seen other people seriously suggest it...

[Duke Bushido]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

 

Or maybe I could buy:

 

- Summon 1 slavishly loyal creature ("Hulk") for 140 points.

 

- build Banner on 150 points...hmmm...I have 60 points left.

 

- buy 6 doublings on my Summon and have 64 Hulks in play at the same time.

 

- or buy up the MF to 180 points and have a 500 point Hulk.

 

BWAAA-HAAAAAAA-HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

 

There is a thread buried around here somewhere soliciting munchkins. I toyed with a pair of submissions, and they were built _exaclt_ like this!

 

I didn't turn them in; I was too ashamed.......

 

 

RadioKAOS's method-- requiring the 'base' character include the cost of Multiform ("MF" for more than _one_ reason...."I'm just sayin' is all") toward his point limit is how I've always required my players to do it. Not for forcible mechanicing, or pressuring the balance, but because I feel it's correct by the rules. Any power you buy applies toward your point limit. Multiform _is_ a power. Granted, it's one with a most unusual special effect, but when everything is said and done, it _is_ a Power. I don't understand why we should 'exempt' it from applying toward the point limit as does any other power.

 

Now the XP (In light of M$'s recent move against Paranoia, I have vowed to refer to Experience Points henceforth as XP ; We had it first, and to Hell with Bill!) thing makes my head swim, so I just hand it out as I would to any other character:

"Your base form solved 2 puzzles, helped to avert the disaster, and organized the Civil Defenses rescue efforts. Give it 3 XP.

Your 'other' form held back the dam long enough to get most of the town evacuated, stopped the train from plunging into the ravine, and aprehended two henchmen and the Super Villain with minimal collateral damage. Give it 3 XP as well."

 

I just don't allow the base form using his XP to increase what's available to his 'other' form, partly because he should earn it like everyone else, and partly to avoid the bookkeeping hassle.

 

Hmmm....

 

Maybe I should have broken this up into separate posts; wouldn't want someone to think I was saying 'this is right.'......

 

 

[ghost-angel]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

RadioKAOS's method-- requiring the 'base' character include the cost of Multiform ("MF" for more than _one_ reason...."I'm just sayin' is all") toward his point limit is how I've always required my players to do it. Not for forcible mechanicing' date=' or pressuring the balance, but because I feel it's correct by the rules. Any power you buy applies toward your point limit. Multiform _is_ a power. Granted, it's one with a most unusual special effect, but when everything is said and done, it _is_ a Power. I don't understand why we should 'exempt' it from applying toward the point limit as does any other power.[/quote']

 

If I'm reading RadioKAOS' post correctly - he's having you pay for Multiform twice, kinda like double taxation. First you determing your Multiform cost (say 70pts) you subtract that from your Base Form to get a 280pt Character who them pays for the Multiform, leaving them 210pts to create the rest of the character with.

 

To which I say: Glad I'm not at that table.

 

Now the XP (In light of M$'s recent move against Paranoia, I have vowed to refer to Experience Points henceforth as XP ; We had it first, and to Hell with Bill!) thing makes my head swim, so I just hand it out as I would to any other character:

"Your base form solved 2 puzzles, helped to avert the disaster, and organized the Civil Defenses rescue efforts. Give it 3 XP.

Your 'other' form held back the dam long enough to get most of the town evacuated, stopped the train from plunging into the ravine, and aprehended two henchmen and the Super Villain with minimal collateral damage. Give it 3 XP as well."

 

I just don't allow the base form using his XP to increase what's available to his 'other' form, partly because he should earn it like everyone else, and partly to avoid the bookkeeping hassle.

 

Hmmm....

 

Maybe I should have broken this up into separate posts; wouldn't want someone to think I was saying 'this is right.'......

 

 

This is the first thing you've said that I so completely disagree with. It was bound to happen, not a big deal.

There's a better way:

1) Give out Experience normally. The player gets 3experience to use.

2) All experience spent should get GM approval, if they're spending too much on their Multiform curtail it. This way they can spend the Multiform Experience as either: 5pts = 25pts in the Other Form or x2 Number of shapes. The Base Form is tracking the Campaign Points in my opinion and the Other Form is just that - another form.

3) YMMV.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

If I'm reading RadioKAOS' post correctly - he's having you pay for Multiform twice' date=' kinda like double taxation. First you determing your Multiform cost (say 70pts) you subtract that from your Base Form to get a 280pt Character who them pays for the Multiform, leaving them 210pts to create the rest of the character with.[/quote']

Ah; I missed that. Got to quit reading until 2 in the morning; seems to affect the ability.....

 

 

This is the first thing you've said that I so completely disagree with. It was bound to happen' date=' not a big deal.[/quote']

Sorry. But given the law of averages, and the tendency of people to all have their own ideas, you are quite correct: it was bound to happen.

 

In my own defense, however, I admitted up front that this was not the best way to do it, and that I did it soley to absolve myself of that little bit of bookkeeping (and the subsequent character double-checking).

 

 

There's a better way:

1) Give out Experience normally. The player gets 3experience to use.

2) All experience spent should get GM approval, if they're spending too much on their Multiform curtail it. This way they can spend the Multiform Experience as either: 5pts = 25pts in the Other Form or x2 Number of shapes. The Base Form is tracking the Campaign Points in my opinion and the Other Form is just that - another form.

3) YMMV.

That part-- the 5 = 25-- that's the reason I ended up doing it the way I described. I've only had two multi-formers in twenty years, so it's not something I get to play with a lot. The first one, he was great: concept was everything for him, and he actually just began accruing XP before the end of the campaign because his character was 'done.' I was much thrilled to have him as a player.

 

The second one---

he was a nightmare. Unless you specifically stapled the XP to his base form, they went to the alternate. At 5=25, that base form grossly leapt ahead of the other players. Every check, he would submit the character for approval after spending the XP. Every month (we played weekly, and I did monthly checks on character development so as to better tailor the adventures) he would submit the character, and every month it was hugely obnoxious, and outclassed the other players horribly. So every month I had to sit with him and re-do the character, etc. After three months, I got to where I'd check him every week. Same problem on a smaller scale.

 

It got to where I pretty much had to assign a limit on how much he could use for his multi-form. So he started hoarding them and bought multiples.

 

Eventually, I was sort of driven to what I described above. As we all know, it is the GM's job to ensure balance, but frankly, there are those players who will simply work you to death doing it. Eventually, you just have to put a line in the sand.

 

If I ever get another player who wants a Multi, I'll most likely not start out with that, as I will desperately be hoping for another player like John S (the first multi).

 

But if driven to it again, I won't feel bad. It's not like I don't give opportunity to be a 'team player.'

 

 

 

So now that you know the reasoning, do I seem a little less horrible?

 

Duke

[ghost-angel]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

Well you weren't horrible to begin with. Multiform needs to be controled - this is a point I have no issues with. Sometimes I have issues with the method of control. Yours ... once put in context (which, really makes all the difference sometimes) seems like a perfectly nartual reaction to a complete tool.

 

I have to say, I've got one character with a Multiform, two of the forms are now static and don't even take up the full Multiform Limit, the other two do. And I don't need any more Experience in the form as I'd start to break concept. At least not until the character reaches the 700pt level...

 

Want obnoxious:

Multiform into a Form that has Duplication. It's such a beautiful construct ... I almost took the opportunity to Munchkin (some more) with it. Oddly enough, it seems to be working very very well in the game.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

Want obnoxious:

Multiform into a Form that has Duplication. It's such a beautiful construct ... I almost took the opportunity to Munchkin (some more) with it. Oddly enough, it seems to be working very very well in the game.

 

To fine tune this, apply the -0 limitation "duplicates never recombine". That way, once you switch form, you don't have to spend phases duplicating.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

As to the whole experience point issue, I think the easiest approach is similar to dealing with the points available to the secondary form at the outset. If I won't let the secondary form have more than the campaign standard for total points (say 350), I would treat xp as an addition to total points for this purpose, effectively capping the secondary form at 350 + your XP.

 

Concepts where the secondary form should have more points than the standard would get looked at separately, but for such concepts I expect the alternate form(s) will be restricted in other ways.

[ghost-angel]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

To fine tune this' date=' apply the -0 limitation "duplicates never recombine". That way, once you switch form, you don't have to spend phases duplicating.[/quote']

I already did. It was part of the concept, the form is an Unkindness of Ravens.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

To fine tune this' date=' apply the -0 limitation "duplicates never recombine". That way, once you switch form, you don't have to spend phases duplicating.[/quote']

 

this brings up an interesting issue:

are Limitations and Advantages too 'combat oriented' in pricing?

 

From a combat point of view, it doesn't matter if the character bamfs out his dupes before he enters combat of if they all pile off of a bus, hence the 0 point limitation.

 

But from a story point of view, it is an extreme disadvantage:

who is legally that person? What does that mean for the others? Who is going to feed all them puppies? What keeps all the dupes around all the time while waiting for the next slugfest-- suppose half of them vacation to Jamaica? How do you transport them?

 

Isn't it much easier for circumstance (read: the GM) to prevent any number of them from being available at a moment's notice? What happens to dupes who wander of camera?

 

 

Just using these as examples, of course. But it would indicate to me that from a day-to-day point of view, a lot of the prices and examples-- particularly in 5E, seem to revolve around the idea that combat is the only purpose of the game.

[ghost-angel]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

this brings up an interesting issue:

are Limitations and Advantages too 'combat oriented' in pricing?

 

From a combat point of view, it doesn't matter if the character bamfs out his dupes before he enters combat of if they all pile off of a bus, hence the 0 point limitation.

 

But from a story point of view, it is an extreme disadvantage:

who is legally that person? What does that mean for the others? Who is going to feed all them puppies? What keeps all the dupes around all the time while waiting for the next slugfest-- suppose half of them vacation to Jamaica? How do you transport them?

 

Isn't it much easier for circumstance (read: the GM) to prevent any number of them from being available at a moment's notice? What happens to dupes who wander of camera?

 

 

Just using these as examples, of course. But it would indicate to me that from a day-to-day point of view, a lot of the prices and examples-- particularly in 5E, seem to revolve around the idea that combat is the only purpose of the game.

Welp. In my case it is definiately a -0 Limitation. The Duplicated Form is a bunch of birds, not being a bunch of birds simply requires a shift into another form.

 

I think part of the idea is it's -0 because you shouldn't get a price break for always be able to do many things at once. Maybe.

 

I dunno, take it on a case by case basis.

[radioKAOS]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

If I'm reading RadioKAOS' post correctly - he's having you pay for Multiform twice, kinda like double taxation. First you determing your Multiform cost (say 70pts) you subtract that from your Base Form to get a 280pt Character who them pays for the Multiform, leaving them 210pts to create the rest of the character with.

 

To which I say: Glad I'm not at that table.

 

In 4th Ed, a character taking multiform had to pay for the MF with the highest point total form. No other form could be more than the point total minus "all the costs for Multiform." 5th Ed says we don't have to have the highest form pay for the mutliform.... this already seems an imbalance to me. now, instead of having two forms, none of which could total more than [point total - multiform costs], you can have a full 350pt form and another 'lesser' form at [350 - multiform cost].

 

It was a mechanic that wasn't broken, IMO, and they way it is changed reminds one of "RIFTS Book X: EVEN MORE POWERFUL POWER GODS TO PLAY IN A POWERFUL LAND FAR AWAY."

 

To me, MF has a huge potential for abuse, and the way I balance things is that either:

a) your highest point form pays for the multipower [and is therefore the 'base form'] and no other form can be built on more points than base form - MF costs.

or

your 'base form' doesn't have to be the highest point form, but that form still has to adhere to the 'max pts = highest point form - MF costs.' He then pays for the MF with the points he has left.

 

It's no more 'double taxation' than it would be in 4th Ed, it just allows the option of having a different form pay for the MF costs and be the 'base form' - and allows the highest point form to get away with not having to pay for the MF, and not subject to the 'max points' rule.

 

As for XP spending on MF, the highest point total any form can have should be "Starting value + XP earned" at any time. This maintains balance and does not allow for munchkin 700pts Hulks running around.

 

As for "Glad I'm not at that table" - worry not, I wasn't about to invite you.

[ghost-angel]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

As for "Glad I'm not at that table" - worry not' date=' I wasn't about to invite you.[/quote']

whew.. the commute to Canada would've killed by budget

 

As for your method .. I still can't say I agree on it at all. I don't even like your logic.

your 'base form' doesn't have to be the highest point form' date=' but that form still has to adhere to the 'max pts = highest point form - MF costs.' He then pays for the MF with the points he has left.[/quote']

To me this says:

Base Form (the 350pt Guy) wants 500pts Multiform Form = 100pts; 500 pt Other Form - 100 pts = 400pt Other Form has left for the build, 350pt Form pays for Multiform = 350-100 = 250pts left for rest (which is normal and fine).

 

But the Other Form gets to pay for itself, in itself, after the Base Form already payed for it? Sounds like double charge to me.

 

correct me if I'm wrong in my assessment of how you're charging for this.

[radioKAOS]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

As for your method .. I still can't say I agree on it at all. I don't even like your logic.

 

To me this says:

Base Form (the 350pt Guy) wants 500pts Multiform Form = 100pts; 500 pt Other Form - 100 pts = 400pt Other Form has left for the build, 350pt Form pays for Multiform = 350-100 = 250pts left for rest (which is normal and fine).

 

But the Other Form gets to pay for itself, in itself, after the Base Form already payed for it? Sounds like double charge to me.

 

correct me if I'm wrong in my assessment of how you're charging for this.

 

Well firstly I don't agree with letting anyone create a 500pt form for a 350pt game. Even though "Points do not equal Balance" one must admit that alowing a 500pts form in a 350pt game has thrown balance straight out the window.

 

I apologize if somehow my posts aren't making sense. They make sense to me in my own little world, and that's what really matters anyhow

 

Secondly no, the 'other form' - in this case at 500pts, is worth the full 500pts, - it does not have to pay for the MF at all. The lower point total form could be no more than the 400pts you mention [highest point total form minus MF costs] and has to pay for the MF [100pts]. It effectively gives the 500pt form a bigger advantage [a 100pt advantage by not having to pay for the MF] over the other characters who are playing at 500pts [assuming a 500pt game].

 

So to clarify in a 350pt game:

 

a) Base form "Doctor" is the primary form. He starts out as a 350pt character.

 

Secondary form "SMASH" is built on 350pts.

 

c) Player decides he wants SMASH to be the highest point total form [at 350]. Other forms [Doctor] cannot be more total points than the highest point total form minus the MF costs [70] per the rule from 4th Ed.

 

d) Doctor can therefore be worth 280pts total.

 

e) Player has Doctor [instead of SMASH] pay for SMASH Multiform costs, 70pts [assuming no lims] out of his 280pts, thus leaving him 210pts to spend on himself.

 

 

This method does seem like a 'double taxation' when you first look at it, I can agree with you there. But the benefit you are getting is that your highest point form does not have to be the one paying for the multiform costs. This allows that form to be equal to the other 350pt characters in the game. Your other form, the Doctor, takes a hit, but conceptually speaking he's not usually going to be the one involved in the conflicts anyhow. I think this way of looking at it illustrates the weakling Doctor that becomes the Hulk very well.

 

Now if you want another form somewhere along the line, it costs the Doctor 5 XP and the 3rd form can be the full base [350] + total XP gained by that time.

[radioKAOS]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

Ok, so after a shower and some more thought on the issue my point is really this:

 

I really dislike the "highest point form does not have to pay for the MF costs" rule. I think having a MF in the first place is more than enough of an advantage, and having your highest point form pay the costs was a balancing factor. Get rid of that and it makes me less than a happy camper.

 

My way around that is to make the form that is paying have a point cap.

[ghost-angel]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

Ok, so after a shower and some more thought on the issue my point is really this:

 

I really dislike the "highest point form does not have to pay for the MF costs" rule. I think having a MF in the first place is more than enough of an advantage, and having your highest point form pay the costs was a balancing factor. Get rid of that and it makes me less than a happy camper.

 

My way around that is to make the form that is paying have a point cap.

Ok, I can understand your issue with the highest point form not paying the cost.

 

Why not just make the Highest Point form pay the cost. Problem solved, issue gone.

 

Your method really does charge a player twice for the power. I consider that the GM unbalancing everything in the other direction, penalizing a player for wanting to play a different concept.

 

An no - a 500 point form does not, but mere existance, unbalance anything. There was a discussion about this a while back here's my total arguement summed up:

--

If you assume a player will munchkin a character to death any point total can be unbalancing, a 350/200 point Multiform can have one form completely geared towards combat, or completely geared towards non-combat. Even the 200pt version can, if put totally into the concept of combat, can unbalance a campaign (without or without multiform). Most players will not do this - they will have less than optimal builds (non-munchkined). They could easily take the 350/200 or 350/500 Multiform builds and make characters that are no more or less effective than any other character in or out of combat.

 

The simply fact that one has a 500 point form, if allowed at all, does not inherently unbalance anything. Point do not equal balance. Ever. They are merely a guideline to help achieve balance.

--

 

I've been in campaigns where point ranges are as far as 250 points apart, the game worked smoothly and with no balance issues. If you can't believe that concept can exist, well, I can't help you.

[radioKAOS]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

Ok, I can understand your issue with the highest point form not paying the cost.

 

Why not just make the Highest Point form pay the cost. Problem solved, issue gone.

 

Your method really does charge a player twice for the power. I consider that the GM unbalancing everything in the other direction, penalizing a player for wanting to play a different concept.

 

I would rather 'unbalance' the game in favour of less points rather than more, considering MF is an easily abused power, and a huge advantage in it's own right.

 

So assuming you understand that I will not allow players to use MF to create a character that is beyond campaign point limits, I then say this to you:

 

I am giving the option of not having to have the highest point total character pay for the MF so that players are not penalized for using MF. It allows your highest point form to be worth the full value of the other characters, rather than being set back 70pts from the others... There is a lot I can do with 70pts, as I'm sure you can too.

 

Sure, your less powerful form is being penalized, but now your 'Combat Form' is going to be worth exactly what everyone else is worth. And most likely your other form doesn't need to be made on any more than 210ish points anyhow.

 

Back in 4th Ed [not sure if you ever played it, so I'll clarify] MF was restricted that way for ALL of your forms. No form could be worth more than the base form minus the costs for MF. Of course we're also talking 250pt characters back then as well.

 

The simply fact that one has a 500 point form, if allowed at all, does not inherently unbalance anything. Point do not equal balance. Ever. They are merely a guideline to help achieve balance.

--

 

I've been in campaigns where point ranges are as far as 250 points apart, the game worked smoothly and with no balance issues.

 

Agreed that point cost is just a guideline, and does not equal balance. Agreed that you can have characters of different point costs in the same group without unbalancing everything.

 

But a 250pt difference sure as hell makes a difference... unless the 500pt character is built by a complete moron, he'll be much better than the 250pt characters, and rightfully so, he's built with twice the points. So while it's a beautiful ideal to think that a huge difference like that will not unbalance the game, it does. You think Robin's player didn't get pissed that Batman was far more useful than he was? I don't know about your troupe, but no one in my games likes to be a sidekick.

 

Using your logic, a 350pt character should be able to fight Mechanon by himself without any balance issues... um, hello?

 

What I can't figure out is this: if you believe that characters being 250pts apart is not an issue, why do you believe that my concept [with a 140pt difference at most] is a balance issue???

 

If you can't believe that concept can exist' date=' well, I can't help you.[/quote']

 

And if you don't realize that points do matter and have an effect on balance, then I can't help you either.

 

Obviously there's a middle ground in that argument, and that's where I find myself. Point costs are not the be all and end all. But they do represent the system's attempt at maintaining balance, and we have to have some faith in that as well.

 

Anyhow it's late, I bid you good night/morning or whatever it is at this point.

[Bloodstone]

Re: I don't quite grok the Multiform rules.

 

radioKaos;

 

One of the main problems I have with multiform as you have described it is that it just does not work for the Hulk type character at all. Or many other valid concepts.

 

Lets assume that we are in a 1500 pt game for a moment. The player of the Hulk wants to have a punny Banner form for concept reasons. By concept, the Banner form is weak and vulnerable. Banner will not be built on more then 100pts, since he is a complete normal with a high INT and some impressive Science skills. This costs the player 20 points or so, depending on lims/advantages.

 

The Hulk is actully PAYING points to get a disadvantge, that disadvantage being "occasionally turns into a puny 100pt character in a 1500pt game!"Capt. Marvel by contrast (who lets say is built using OIHID) gets a freaking -1/4 break on the cost of every one of his powers!

 

The Hulk just became a 1480pt character for concept while the Big Red Cheese can apply his lim to everything and end up being effectivly a 2000+ pt character. Even if we skip the OIHID comparison, you are still charging the Hulk 20pts to go from an unkillable combat god that can go toe to toe with the Abomination to a nerd that would probably get his *** kicked by Aunt May armed with pepper spray and a rolled up newspaper.

 

To make this worth while, that Puny Banner form better save the day with his superior geek brain all the damn time. Otherwise it may have been better for the Hulk to skip multiform entierly and just buy up INT, a few Science Skills and a very limited Shapshift. Sure, he may not be UBER SCINCE GEEK, but then again he also never has to fear being killed by a stray bullet. Doing this kinda kills the concept, but it's far less dangerous and ultimatly a more worth while expenditure of points.