Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

[Nucleon]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

I believe the strength chart represents what a person can pick up and carry not what he can bench press. But have you ever heard of Paul Anderson:

 

Nucleon would express His desire to look more closely at the Paul Anderson exemple.

 

According to your exemple, he could lift 2850 kg. That's STR 32-33. However, we can safely assume that Anderson exerted himself a lot during this record, or, in HERO terms, he pushed.

 

Let us stay conservative and take the heroic rules for a push; It is 5 characters points more, assuming minimal success on the EGO roll (to let his starting STR be more important.

 

That leaves Paul Anderson with a 27-28 STR, consequant with the HERO terms of 30 being "the absolute peak" for non-augmented human. If Nucleon had to "build" PA in Characters terms, He would give him exactly that, a 27-28 STR, with the 7-8 pts overhead bought at double cost.

 

[MitchellS]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

Nucleon would express His desire to look more closely at the Paul Anderson exemple.

 

According to your exemple, he could lift 2850 kg. That's STR 32-33. However, we can safely assume that Anderson exerted himself a lot during this record, or, in HERO terms, he pushed.

 

Let us stay conservative and take the heroic rules for a push; It is 5 characters points more, assuming minimal success on the EGO roll (to let his starting STR be more important.

 

That leaves Paul Anderson with a 27-28 STR, consequant with the HERO terms of 30 being "the absolute peak" for non-augmented human. If Nucleon had to "build" PA in Characters terms, He would give him exactly that, a 27-28 STR, with the 7-8 pts overhead bought at double cost.

 

Yes, but please keep in mind that the rules state that pushing can only be used for heroes and important npcs [rule 6: "the average man - even the best atheletes and warriors - can never push."].

[Nucleon]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

Yes' date=' but please keep in mind that the rules state that pushing can only be used for heroes and important npcs [rule 6: "the average man - even the best atheletes and warriors - can [i']never[/i] push."].

 

Mmhh. Nucleon doth think that this rule was to mainly to prevent NPC push in combat. In this case, dramatic liscense is to be excused but a little.

 

Clearly, Paul Anderson was the hero There. He may have been a PC.

 

 

[nexus]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

Yes' date=' but please keep in mind that the rules state that pushing can only be used for heroes and important npcs [rule 6: "the average man - even the best atheletes and warriors - can [i']never[/i] push."].

 

Yes, but if you are using Real Life examples, either everyone is a PC or no one is, IMO. You have to set some even ground. How do you tell the difference between who is "important" and who isn't?

[Nucleon]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

Extra levels and AoE or EX attacks don't hurt either.

 

If you think about it, once you're the low man on the DEX totem pole there's no good reason to spend points on DEX at all. Buy levels and defenses with those points instead. (Buying 30 points worth of PD and/or ED or DR instead of +10 DEX goes a long way.)

 

Verily.

[MitchellS]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

Yes' date=' but if you are using Real Life examples, either everyone is a PC or no one is, IMO. You have to set some even ground. How do you tell the difference between who is "important" and who isn't?[/quote']

The ground rules are set to the point where the PCs and major villains have the ability to exceed the standard; it's a way of making the players have an edge that everyone else doesn't have. Unless someone in my game was actually playing Paul Anderson he falls into category 6 of the pushing rules. He was an exceptional athelete but pushing is reserved for the heroes, not the normal people.

 

And we also shouldn't work under some abstract assumption that the pushing rules in any way reflect on real world standards. The pushing rules are a way to get 10 more active points of power; nothing more, nothing less.

[MitchellS]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

Mmhh. Nucleon doth think that this rule was to mainly to prevent NPC push in combat. In this case, dramatic liscense is to be excused but a little.

 

Clearly, Paul Anderson was the hero There. He may have been a PC.

 

 

No, the PCs are the heroes [and the major villains they're fighting]. They're the ones who get the benefits of the push. Not the every-day people, no matter how exceptional.

[Nucleon]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

Wrong again, Mitchell. He goes on DEX 38. Read the Lightning Reflexes line. And PRE 12, before the combat STARTS. This guy AMBUSHES people. He doesn't fight people straight up, because he doesn't HAVE to. He has stealth, you know. And if he's 16" away, that PER roll to spot him is at -4 plus his roll for his brand new DEX of 34, which is 16-. Make a PER roll at -9 with range. Even given +5 to all perception rolls on an INT of 23, a character will fail that roll 50 percent of the time.

 

He likely will recover EVERYTHING they do. He's DCV 17. You DO realize that the average OCV on even a 450 point hero is maybe an 11? So if they spread 6 dice each so they can hit him on an 11-, they deal one stun apiece? So what? Once he gimps the high OCV character and destroys his ability to act, he can mangle just about anyone.

 

Did anybody ever tried to AoE the varmint?

 

Or use a damage shield, or use invisibility to take him half DCV?

 

Heroes find a way.

 

[nexus]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

The ground rules are set to the point where the PCs and major villains have the ability to exceed the standard; it's a way of making the players have an edge that everyone else doesn't have. Unless someone in my game was actually playing Paul Anderson he falls into category 6 of the pushing rules. He was an exceptional athelete but pushing is reserved for the heroes, not the normal people.

 

And we also shouldn't work under some abstract assumption that the pushing rules in any way reflect on real world standards. The pushing rules are a way to get 10 more active points of power; nothing more, nothing less.

 

I strongly disagree with most of that, but this is just pulling the thread further off topic so I'm willing to drop it.

[Nucleon]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

No' date=' the PCs are the heroes [and the major villains they're fighting']. They're the ones who get the benefits of the push. Not the every-day people, no matter how exceptional.

 

Sadly, Nucleon disagree with thee, mortal. However, He just repped you for your consistancy to respond posts. So the Cosmic Balance is, once again, respected.

 

[MitchellS]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

Sadly, Nucleon disagree with thee, mortal. However, He just repped you for your consistancy to respond posts. So the Cosmic Balance is, once again, respected.

 

Balance restored.

[Balabanto]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

Even if the "Has a Phase for Both of his Spds' is interpreted the way that you suggest, it still doesn't function. By carefully manipulating who I drain and when, I can make sure that character...NEVER ACTS AGAIN IN COMBAT.

 

This is the cheesiest rule in the world, but it's actually a consequence of the phase system. I've learned that for this, SPD suppress (Which I disallow, along with HIGHLY regulated SPD drain rules) is the single most effective power in the game. Simply by varying the dice I use and the amount of SPD that I suppress, I can make certain that characters never act.

 

Some of my house rules include the following:

 

NO ONE can push for the first combat turn at all, unless your goal is to save someone's life or someone is going to die for sure.

 

Mental Defense is a highly restricted power. You pretty much have to have telepathic powers to have it. If you are a cyberpath, you enter the machine class of minds automatically.

 

There is no such thing as technologically constructed mental defense in my game. The moment you open that door, there are serious broken issues in any game, like every guy who makes fifty million dollars a year is wearing a helmet, earring, or other device that gives him mental defense. The GM has infinite points to give his NPCs this stuff. But PC's don't.

 

Defining Indomitable Will: Indomitable Will is a description, not a superpower. "My god, he's got indomitable will!" is represented by EGO 20. And if you think EGO 20 isn't huge, think again. That gives you an Ego roll of 13-, which busts a 12d6 Mind Control at +20 open after a single action phase. Anything beyond EGO 20 is a superpower, which is usually only available to people with superpowers that are related to the concept.(Mentalists, Mages, etc)

 

Mentalists are rare. I've seen campaigns where mentalists are common. Unless it's psiworld, these campaigns stink. Every investigation for the detective character is sidelined by dingusberry mentalist reading the guy's mind and making a joke out of what I like to call "The Fun of Figuring Things Out."

 

What I DO know is that my game works, has worked, and continues to work for over 19 years. The ranges function, the dice caps function, and because they function, the STORIES become more important than the numbers. It took a LONG time to get there, the first six years of my game were not nearly as good as the stuff I run now. It's not for everyone, but you can see some of the stuff in Digital Hero, so it must be pretty good.

 

The key to running a great, long running game is to keep things simple with a fixed set of ranges. Don't worry, as many people do, about "My character's power level." Worry about who your character IS, what motivates him or her, and what stories surround the character in the world.

 

I use a staggered experience point system, too. You may ask...why the heck would I use a staggered experience point system?

 

Let's say you have six heroes, and they're not all of equal power level. (In my game, this happens from time to time.) The scenario is staged for 6 characters of 450-500 points. (I use 50 point blocks because it's easy, and it works, for whatever reason) Three of the characters are in the range, one is 100 points above, and two characters are below, at 39 and 75 points respectively. The 600 point character loses two XP off the top, the 39 down gets one more, and the 75 down gets two more. This reflects a difficulty level, but more importantly, it stresses this important fact.

 

No matter HOW hard you try, if you face Firewing or some other monstrosity at the start, he cleans your clock, and then eight months later, you can solo the guy, this doesn't FEEL right storywise. In fact, it's kind of cheesy. That makes a good story ONCE, but then what do you do once that's over? The big bad guy's done, and he no longer looms ominously. It should take YEARS to stand a chance of going up against a guy like that one on one, in a game world where there's multiple groups of characters running around, doing different things, meeting each other, and interacting. Since I run multiple campaigns in the same world, all of which affect each other and interact with each other, I have to have power caps, damage class caps, and a lot of micromanagement because otherwise, should someone show up at my game this week because he happens to be in town, or he wants to play a character which wasn't previously in that group, the character is still reasonably in scale and the world handles it accordingly.

 

Without the restrictions, the slightly lower than 5th power levels, the world doesn't function as well, either thematically or storywise. So that's my answer.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Champions Characters DEX Inflation Why?

 

The key to running a great' date=' long running game is to keep things simple with a fixed set of ranges. Don't worry, as many people do, about "My character's power level." Worry about who your character IS, what motivates him or her, and what stories surround the character in the world. [/quote']I disagree with your first sentence only in using "the key" as if not using a "fixed set of ranges" dooms a campaign from its inception. It is one possible way, and I'm not convinced it's an any more successful way, to balance a campaign. I've seen far too many campaigns flounder despite rigid caps on SPD, defenses, attacks, CV, and other factors. Caps are not the answer.

 

Far more important is the fact that our players are all friends beyond playing Champions; talk to each other about game issues; and, far from being upset at being upstaged when another player's character really shines, we enjoy seeing our friend have a good time when they're kicking evil buttocks. Making certain we're all on the same page regarding what we want from a superhero game is IMO infinitely more important that slapping on some sort of arbitrary caps on power levels.

 

Our own long time campaign (started in 1992) does not have any fixed caps. Zilch. We have only two fundamental guidelines: 1) Don't step on another character's schtick; and (currently) Max DC = (20 - SPD). While this last one doesn't make characters equal (whatever the heck that is), it does keep them in shouting distance of one enother in terms of combat effectiveness. And unless every combat is a cage match, there is no way to create perfect balance between player characters. On the contrary, almost all Champions combats are team-vs-team, and the possible dynamics of a combat with multiple characters on both sides are impossible to predict or calculate. On paper Eurostar should munch our team MidGuard; all of its members being built on more points than any member of our team. Two years ago Eurostar not only ambushed us but they had us outnumbered 5 to 4, and we still beat them. It was a very tough fight (every member of MidGuard was Stunned or rendered unconscious at some point during the course of the battle). It wasn't just teamwork; it was sheer refusal on the part of our team to quit, combined with a bit of luck and some good tactics on our part.